Car Tech forum: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water?

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Oh really

by Willy - 3/5/08 1:11 PM

In Reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08

If it worked, do you think only 10K users would be out there. If hydrogen in any great amount is loose to be sucked up, would create more than a little horsepower, it would blow the engine apart or at least start a fire. Nope... -----Willy

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It works

by andher52 - 6/6/08 7:22 PM

In Reply to: Oh really by Willy

I spent 20 hours on the internet and ended up with more questions than answers so I started experimenting last march. I'm on proto type 15 and it works. But it is not the silver bullet we wish for.
I can get small to normal size pickups and cars 40% better mileage easy with 2 hydro Generators. But only if they are 2000 or newer.
Why????
The software they have now is called leaning software. Making the gas is easy , not melting the container is a bit harder.
When the gas goes into the air intake it goes pass the o2 sencer and sends a message to the computer and the computers adjusts the o2. Same when it goes threw the exhaust the sencer there sences the the fuel is tooo rich and starts to turn off the gas and in my 2005 dodge I'm running about 60 % hydrogen gas and 40% regualr gas.
The big savings is not from the hydrogen but from the 25% eff. engine now burns about 50% eff. and thats the major portion of the btus you are using. With 4 I can stop at a stop sign and take my foot off the brake and will drive down the road 15 mph using the h2

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Let's be practical...

by Willy - 6/9/08 2:34 PM

In Reply to: It works by andher52

If this worked to any degree of practically and was dependable it would have been made into a commercial application already like a generator. Either, its too costly to apply the "gizmo" or it needs too much attention to be left alone and any other input to keep it going. I guarantee you, if water and the H coming from it were all it was to it, they would be everywhere by now. Don't blame a worldwide energy conspiracy either, the application is just too costly. Science or not, theory and lab results is one thing but having anything taken for granted like an appliance is another. The only application for a H-fuel cell use is in space craft where $ and need is no object.

You say it works, now drive it for a few yrs. and with little attention come back with results.

adios -----Willy

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Sort of...

by batman823 - 3/6/08 8:30 AM

In Reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08

I'm a nuclear engineer, and "sort of" really is the answer. If you want to know "How?", I've explained it below. If you want to just hear a "Yes/No." then Yes.

I've checked out their diagrams and supplies, they seem legitimate and should actually work. I can't say how well the system would work. The Oxygen Generator systems I worked on used 2000V-3000Volts and up to 900Amps. I am not sure if the 12V in the car would actually produce enough H2 to be useful. But here's the exlpanation. I would actually recommend you try it, with only 12V, there's not going to be enough H2 to destroy your engine and no water will get put into it, so no damage there.

Oxygen generators and Hydrogren generators(Electrolyzer) are the same thing. On the submarine, we had no use for the explosive H2, so we pumped it overboard. But in this case, the H2 would be used and O2 would just be the same as O2 anywhere else.

At the very worst, you would install the kit and not be happy and get a refund. They use PayPal, so it's a legit business and they tell you how to track them to verify their business.

The engines we have are spaced and designed to run on explosive petroleum fuel(gas) or flammable petrol(diesel).

Adding a more explosive compound will reduce the need for the gas.
So YES, it is possible to run it on water or to mix gas and H2 to improve efficiency.

The process is called electrolysis. If you take pure water, which does not conduct electricity, and put a very strong voltage across it(like from the coil in your car that powers the spark plugs) then the Hydrogen and Oxygen separates. The two H2 molecules and single O2 molecule is gas, which comes from two H20 molecules that were seperated.
(2)H20 = (2)H2 + (2)O2

The H2 and O2 are now stable and can be kept separate. If the H2 is allowed to seep into the air intake of a gas engine it would make the fuel more potent and you could produce more power using less gasoline.

That's all great in theory, but in practice, it is a little tougher to achieve than it sounds. It's hard to get de-ionized water, it requires a pricey deionizing filter to make the water pure enough to do this properly. You can do it with simple purified water but that uses quite a bit more electricity with crappy results.

Secondly, those savvy enough to invent their own system have blown their gaskets and the like by putting too much H2 in the engine.

By all means, buy the kit and see if you save money.
I drive an '06 Nissan Sentra and get 25mpg-city/38mpg-Hwy. I am a big skeptic of all these things because of so many scams and such. So if you do install this kit I would appreciate knowing about it and your results. I wouldn't install the kit solely due to the skepticism.

The phrase comes to mind "Never ask an engineer what he does, because he will tell you."

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Hydrogen generation

by bigduke - 3/7/08 6:42 PM

In Reply to: Sort of... by batman823

The last posting uses a lot of words and no science. Hydrogen made from water takes energy greater
than recovered when it is burned. And taking energy from the battery requires replacement
from the engine. With losses in the generator, wires and recharging it
takes even more than any possible recovery from the hydrogen.

Second, one needs to make the water conduct electricity to make the two gasses. Usual lab
generation uses platinum electrodes. Priced this metal recently? Try
$2000 an ounce. It is not used up, so at the end it can be sold again.

How does one make the water conduct? Usually in a dilute acid, but not HCl. It needs to be
one that does not evaporate.

Lets put this one to rest with all the other something from nothing
schemes.

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read the site

by batman823 - 3/10/08 5:36 AM

In Reply to: Hydrogen generation by bigduke

The link that was posted does explain how it works. But as for science, when you explain something, you put it into terms that a person can understand.

For the energy issue, your statement is correct. However, there is unused energy in an underloaded generator, like the alternator in your car. So it is feasable in an automobile to harness that energy in a useful form. Instead of it spinning and putting nothing out, it uses 1 or 2 extra amps for the electolysis. That's not anything that would put a load on the alternator.
The energy's already being used keeping the alternator spinning against the electromagnetic feedback and friction, so that energy is available for use.

The site doesn't claim that the H2 gas is burned and magically creates energy. What it claims is that the HHO product from the distilled water and calcium bicarbonate catylyst encourages the gasoline to burn more efficiently by forming smaller droplets, along with a few other factors. They also state it works better with more efficient engines. The anode and cathode in the kits are not platinum. They are relatively cheap conductors and they are specified on the site.

Check it out. I'm a neclear engineer, not an explosives expert. So I'm not an authority on how gasoline burns.
But I do know there are many ways to more efficiently use fuels. For example, the more turbulent the air, the more vaporous it becomes, and therefore, the more explosive. That's why certain intake techniques are better than others and produce more power or are more efficient.
Who knows if it really works, but if it does, it would be worth a try.
It does seem that IF* the HHO does make the gasoline droplets smaller in the air mixture, than it would increase the efficiency. And that should do much more than the tiny load on the alternator would cost.

I agree on H2 though. There are losses in the electrolytic production of H2 that make it less efficient as a fuel, but the question is whether or not it is more efficient than gasoline. Water is certainly more plentiful than oil. We do already have the network set up for gasoline, so a rework would require a lot of resources. But Nuclear, Solar, Geothermal, and Wind energy sources are also very plentiful.

We just don't have those tapped to the extent that we need. So we resort to coal and oil because that's what's simple and we already have the networks.

Just a few things to ponder.

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incomplete thinking here

by andher52 - 6/6/08 7:39 PM

In Reply to: Hydrogen generation by bigduke

I tried with copper electrodes. and you can use baking soda and sodium citrate and lye and salt.
Spend 10 hours on each one and then you will find out which one works the best I did.
Copper works great ......for 3 days. Positive crumbles and plates to the negitive and water turns blue. Looks cool. So no to stainless on postive and copper on negitive. 15 cars are using them. Works great ...for a month then the copper breaks down. I have to replace them all.
Now I have 50 cars using my generator and we now use stainless on both electrodes and car dealers are asking me to put them on the Suburbans so they can sell them.UPS is talking about them. The dumb things work but not n every car/truck about 90% and all have to be older than 2000. Acid works good but very nasty burns. Should see my hands. I have about 600 hours of experiments and 16 proto types.

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incomplete knowledge, not thinking.

by batman823 - 6/16/08 11:07 AM

In Reply to: incomplete thinking here by andher52

Specifically, chemistry is the primary concern. IF the theory is correct, that introducing HHO gas to the intake causes better vaporization, then this system works. Your copper anode will quickly degrade in the presence of chlorine, lye, and many other impurities. Even moreso with the I2R losses, heat and electrical potential maintained by the dialectric.

So you are correct to try different metals. I would suggest a copper-nickel alloy and controlled chemistry. These alloys have very low resistances and are less susceptible to corrosion. Using DE-IONIZED water would be the best. Add Calcium Carbonate for a catylist. Then you have a more efficient, chemically stable HHO producer.

If the stainless works, then keep it up. Good for you and best of luck. I know stainless is susceptible to some chloride-stress crack propogation and oxygen pitting, but compared to pure copper, it's much better overall. Using stainless, you should be able to use bottled water or use a tap-filter(PUR, BRITA) to supply the water. This will remove most of the chlorides.

Once again, I'm a nuclear engineer specialized in electronics and a limited background on chemistry. You sound like you've found a specific balance that works well, so congratulations. Still, if this were adaptable to newer cars with less maintenance, more people would be interested.

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My Generator

by Billybobis1 - 7/5/08 1:18 PM

In Reply to: Hydrogen generation by bigduke

I have built a Hydrogen generator and I am currently doing research and development, trying to make it more productive.
I used six stainless steel switch plate covers, I bought at Lowes.
I am using plain old tap water. and a 12 vac power supply going through a full wave rectifier. the current capacity of the small transformer is rated at only a little over 1 amp. and I'm sure that I am using much less than that.

Testing it this morning without a check valve causes a small internal explosion that blew the top off of the electrolysis chamber, but at least I know that Oxygen and Hydrogen are being liberated from the water.

I think that there would be a negligible amount of energy expended for a system like this, which would make it well worth the effort.

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you need to try it

by andher52 - 6/6/08 7:28 PM

In Reply to: Sort of... by batman823

My 2005 dodge get 10 miles to the gal. and with 4 generators using 12 volts and stating at 4.5 amps I can get 21 miles to a gallon but only 19.5 in the city. I paid the 300 bucks for one and it worked good for a week and then died. So I made my own and there are guys all over making them

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water will burn

by muddstopper - 6/13/08 2:48 PM

In Reply to: you need to try it by andher52

you guys are misiing the picture. The debte isnt whether the technology works, but how well. It does indeed work. Ihave found where a actuall auotmoble was built in the 1800's that ran a total of 18 miles on nothing but lake water. The can was built and demostrated somewhere in france. A googel search will also lead you to a demostration that took place in the early 1900 with a patented electrolis carburator in Chacago Ill. A seach of the patent office will show you the actual design. Forgive me for not posting links to this info as I am not at my personal computer where these references are bookmarked. You will also find many references to brownsgas which is a a product of water and electricity and is common in the welding field. Brownsgas is probably the best search word to type into your search engine, A search for Yule Browns might also trun up something of interest. One solution you might try to get your hybrid systems to work more efficiently is to lower the voltage. Between 2.5 and 3 volt seems to be the magic sweet spot for getting these conversions to work, this is depending on the amperage of your vehicles alternator. This will work on most any car, reguardless of age, the newer electronicly control vehicles can benefit form fooling the oxy sensor into beleiveing that the system isnt running lean so it doesnt automaticly increase the amount of petro that is delivered thru the injection system. The HHO, or brownsgas, is plumbed into the cars vaccum system, but also can be plumbed directly thru the air filter system.

Disclaimer,
I dont bult or sell any water to gas products and dont have one installed on my personal vehicle. I do have several friends that have installed them on their personal vehicles and are claiming 30% increases in petro MPG. I prefer to let them work the buggs out before doing an install on my means of transportation

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YES it is possible but there are problems

by steeverrino - 6/22/08 11:38 AM

In Reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08

I have been experimenting with this technology for almost a year and here is what I have found.

First. The generator is not easy to fit in most smaller cars. Even some larger cars do not have the room in the engine bay like in the past. There is just not a lot of room for a generator.

Second. Amp draw is tricky to regulate. It is dependent on the strength of the distilled water/sodium hydroxide mixture. Do not use baking soda and or tap water. Too many problems and impurities. You can regulate the amp draw with neutral plates or a DC current regulator but the expense and where to put the unit is a problem.

Third. Cold weather. The water in the unit and bubbler will freeze. Yes you can add alcohol but it does affect the efficiency.

Fourth. People have another thing to take care of on their cars.
Most people do not even check the air pressure in their tires or the oil level in their engines. So how in the world do you think most people will take care of an HHO generator? HHO generators are maintenance intense and require some upkeep.

Fifth. The gains are minimal. I have tried several different units on several different cars. Most have gotten just a small MPG increase of 1 or 2 MPG. I have gotten a 5 MPG increase with a Honda CRX HF but that could have been from also changing driving habits.

Sixth. The O2 sensor problem. Your newer car may have one,two, three or four O2 sensors. They instruct the computer that controls the gasoline air mixture by sensing the Oxygen content of the exhaust.
You have to trick the O2 sensor into running lean. There are many ways to do this. But in many cases, by using these devices, you will end up with a check engine light coming on. I have tried the O2 sensor spacers ( just spark plug anti fowlers drilled to accept the O2 sensor ) and the electronic O2 adapters that trick the engine into running leaner. In each case, the cars I have put these devices in have eventually come up with check engine lights on the dash. Yes they did help with mileage but the engine did start to knock. So I recommend if you do use these devices to run a higher octane gasoline.

Seventh. The scam factor. Everyone who is out on the net saying that you will increase mileage by 50% or 200% or some other number is LYING! They cannot tell you what kind of mileage increase or decrease you will have. They can tell you how much it will cost. They are trying to sell you a kit or a book to tell you how to build one.

DON'T buy the books or the kits. You can build one yourself with all the information on the internet. The books are everything that can be found on the internet for free.

Some of the people involved in selling these plans or kits have been involved in scams in the past. Some of these people are saying it is legitimate because the federal government is giving tax deductions for their products. Better check with the IRS before believing that one. I did. NOT true. And don't fall for the I am a christian so I would not ever scam you. Ask all the guys who put money with Dennis Lee and his scam a week club.

Eighth. Heat. The HHO generator will also generate heat. The mixture of water and Sodium hydroxide will get rather warm. If you are not careful, the generator will overheat and possible melt any plastic components. So the generator must be made to withstand the heat or you must cool the generator with a small transmission cooler.

Also you will need to run high gauge wire to the unit to prevent the wires from melting. If your unit draws 15 amps cold, you can expect it to draw 20 to 25 amps when it warms up. I like to run at least an 04 gauge wire and a 40 amp circuit breaker. You can bet that amp draw will increase as the unit heats up. Every one I talk to has the same problem.

Ninth. Cost. Yes you can build one of these things with Stainless steel wall plates from Lowe's. All for $50. But in order to really build one right, you must use the highest quality stainless steel possible. Stainless steel is not cheap. You will also need a container...I built mine out of lexan. Not cheap any more either. Wire is not cheap any more. I figure I have about $140 dollars into my latest unit. The design must be right. the correct amount of positive, neutral and negative plates. Spacing is critical.

It will probably be my last one because I don't see the advantage of having one in my car. Not for the small increases in MPG. It outputs about 2 liters per minute which is more than enough according to all the experts.

Tenth. Safety. You have to run a bubbler to protect against explosions. Hydrogen and oxygen are present together and that makes for a very explosive environment. I have had bubblers explode on me and it is very loud. Finding an area to put a bubbler is also a problem on many cars. Putting brass wool into a pipe will not prevent explosions of the generator.!!!! Brass wool in a pipe is not a good idea. I have done tests with brass wool and it does burn eventually and will backfire into a generator causing an explosion you cannot believe.

So there you have an informed, unbiased report on HHO. I am not selling anything and this report is my effort to answer the one question that never gets answered about HHO. Does it work?

And that answer is possibly, but not as well as the people who sell this stuff would have you believe. It has problems and is not the real answer to better mileage.

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And added to what I said before......

by steeverrino - 6/22/08 7:25 PM

In Reply to: YES it is possible but there are problems by steeverrino

Have you noticed that when you do a web search on HHO, all you get is websites selling and no website telling the truth about HHO?

All most people want to know is....DOES THE DARNED THING WORK?

Seems that everyone and their mother is selling these things and nowhere on these sites can you get an honest answer.

If you search for does HHO work or HHO scam, you get nothing of any use.

And every top site on the net has someone who has an advertisement for information on HHO or an HHO kit.

Even most of the videos on Youtube do not have anything useful about the effectiveness of HHO generators. I've seen only one that had a Scanguage that showed his actual real time MPG. By the way, it was higher. But you cannot even trust video.

You really can't trust the sites that talk about HHO because the people who run them usually have something to sell or even postings on any site, the person who did the posting is usually involved in a business of selling something to do with HHO.

A sure sign of scammers at work is when they say..." Laugh at the oil companies." or The Arabs are to blame...or Burn water, the government doesn't want you to know about this. I have found that many of the sites that employ this tactic of blame or getting something for nothing, then the product is usually of poor quality. In other words .....JUNK.

The people selling these kits or information are playing on your angst about paying so much to fill your tank. They are preying on your seeing $100 on the gas pump when you fill up. They are everywhere and making a killing.

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HHO

by muddstopper - 6/25/08 7:51 PM

In Reply to: And added to what I said before...... by steeverrino

steeverrino,
I pretty much agree with what you have written. I am confused tho about some of the O2sensor foolers you mentioned, as well as the high volt/amperage suggestions. O2sensors basicly send electrical pulses to the autos ECM. These signals can easily be duplicated with a potentinometer (pot). A proper base line reading of your untampered with o2sensor is needed before hooking up anykind of fooler, but once you know what the voltage should read, it is easily duplicated using a flashlight battery and a Pot. The current draw is minimal and a AAbattery will last for months.Another thought to is that some o2 sensors run on a narrow band using lowering the voltage to prevent the ECM from increaseing fuel supply, and some use a wide band that requires raising the voltage to prevent increased fuel supply. Also, voltage and ampdraw on most HHO converters I have seen is limited to 1.5V-2.5V and milliamps, and the use of a pulse emmitter, so a large circuit interrupter isnt needed, but one should use some sort of relay instead of hooking directly into the cars factory fuse panel.

So far we have had good success at running lawnmowers on pure HHO gas and have a converter hooked up on ford ranger as a HHO/gas hybrid. The testing results on fuel mileage hasnt been determined yet, but we should know in a few weeks if its worth the hassel.

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More on the scam aspect........

by steeverrino - 7/6/08 9:20 AM

In Reply to: More on the scam aspect of HHO by steeverrino

So I also see that Mr. Freedom has several new parts to the system.
He now offers a gas line heater, a PVC enhancer, a MAP enhancer, and a vaporizer.

Gee, I thought that the HHO system he had was the answer last year. Looks as if it needs some more help.

I also see that they link their supposed technology with a video to Steve Meyers. Mr. Meyers technology is not HHO. They use this video to make people believe that what they have is a usable technology.

What I am saying is, play with this technology but I would suggest that you do not send Mr Freedom or any of his associate members any money. You can find all of the knowledge you need to build one of these things on the net. Don't send your hard earned money to the scammers.

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Most are scams

by muddstopper - 7/6/08 10:52 AM

In Reply to: More on the scam aspect of HHO by steeverrino

It seems that the history of hydrogen conversion from water started from a sentence in the 1000 Leagues Under the Seas book from the Capt Nemo. Supposely Nemo said something about the stored energy potential of water in the form of hydrogen. The Vern book was a work of fiction, but I happen to think that Capt Nemo is right. The potential is there, after all look at our own Sun, a big burning ball of hydrogen. The problem is unlocking that hydrogen from the water which is our most abundant resource.

There will always be opportunist looking to profit from the fears of others. As you said, almost every website pertaining to water for fuel is a site belonging to someone looking to cashin on our energy fears. Even with this said, we shouldnt stop looking for a solution to our energy problem. There is no such thing as totally free energy. Solar and wind arent even free simply because of the resources needed to obtain electricity from these sources. Water for fuel will be no different. It took some forward looking people to figure out how to convert wind and solar energy to a usuable product. It will take the same forward thinking to discover how to use water as a renewable fuel source. As for the HHO being placed on the junk heap of scams, in its current state, you are probably right, but someone, somewhere, should be able to figure out how to do the conversion in a economical manner. Afterall, they already know how to do it in an un-economical manner, and if proper resources had been allocated years ago, we probably wouldnt be at the mercy of big oil today.

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Water Freezes right?

by rover411 - 7/22/08 3:05 PM

In Reply to: YES it is possible but there are problems by steeverrino

Thank you for answering my question, I looked for hours. The Water Freezes in the Cold--TaDa-- what good is that? Almost laughable if you think about the expense and labor to make one of these things. Honey OMG its 32 degrees I have to rip out my HHO device(time 3am cold Winter night).
Rover

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Water as fuel

by clawson44 - 6/27/08 1:57 PM

In Reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08

We have heard the term, run your car on water, and some say that it may be a scam and some are not sure. Well, the concept is not new and it requires a water fuel conversion to take place. Water as fuel is the real term for this system that helps to save money on these high gas prices. How the process works is when hydrogen is created from water and converted into fuel to produce enough energy to run the vehicle.

It is not easy to explain the process in this one article. However, the HHO or Brown Gas is what is created from water to run your car on water. There are instructional guides and video presentations online that will explain the process more clearly, but it does work and is being used by many to save thousands on the insanely high gas prices that we are all currently experiencing.

Water has many uses and its conversion to fuel is no different in this case. A water fueled car is said to be easier on the environment because it causes the air to be less polluted. Gasoline and diesel are enemies to the environment and with so many people driving cars these days, it is only going to get worse and is a danger to global warming.
Environmentalists welcome the change of using water as fuel and in lieu of the high gas prices; many are choosing to run their cars on water instead. In addition to saving the environment, using water as fuel will give your cars engine a longer life expectancy and your car will definitely run better. You will also get better gas mileage from using water as fuel.

More information can be found at http://hydrogenfuelcar.googlepages.com

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Not necesarly,

by muddstopper - 6/28/08 6:36 PM

In Reply to: Water as fuel by clawson44

Useing the hydrogen/oxygen gas mixture doesnt mean your cars engine will last longer, contrary to what many will have you believe. The combustion process of the burning Hho gas results in the conversion of HHo to H2O. This H2O can and does bypass the piston rings of the engine. The result is a mixing of oil and water to form a milky mess that can and does do major harm to the engine internal rotateing parts. The eventual end results are loss of lubrication and increasd friction and bearing failure. Also, rust can and does occur since every auto engine I have seen is made using steel. So dont expect to see any great life expectancy in your engine just because you are using water for fuel. Any internal combustion engine will require certain measures be taken to insure long liveity of the rotateing parts. Ceramics are one material that hold possibilities, but coating the pistions, cylinderwalls, and replaceing valvetrain compontents with ceramic materials isnt going to be cheap.

JFI, the ford ranger that the HHO converter has been installed went from 18mpg to 21mpg with the first test. We are using pure, unfiltered well water wtih no added electrolite substances.

I am also experimenting with a 2001 Ford escort using acetone (2oz to 10gal) and have seen a mileage increase from 37mpg to 40mpg. We are hopeing that when we have mastered the proper amounts of acetone per gal of gas, as well as the HHO conversion, to marry the two methods for even more fuel efficiency. The experiments have just began, and we expect several more weeks of testing before determining if the first tests are just flukes.

If its science, its repeatable. If you cant repeat or duplicate, and maybe even improve on the results, you havent accomplished anything.

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update

by muddstopper - 7/6/08 9:21 AM

In Reply to: Not necesarly, by muddstopper

I thought I would log back with a little update. The escort was chosen as the Acetone test vehicle simply because it is driven every week to the exact same location (497miles round trip) and all miles are highway interstate miles with the same driver. We figured that any change in mpg would be easily spotted since the mileage history has been documented for the last 6 years. The mpg of the Escort with Acetone is all over the place. The first tank load adveraged 34mpg and was to be expected since it was reported to take a couple of tanks of fuel to clean out the fuel system. The second tank adveraged 40mpg, which was a whopping suprise since this car has never seen better than 37 on the best trip. Still the adverage of the two tankloads is still 37mpg, or the same mpg that had been previously observed. Since then the mpg has seemed to settle in at 38mpg, but we are skeptical of this result. The last two weeks has seen the interstate turned into a parking lot due to road construction. This means long lines and slow and stopped traffic flow as well as the chooseing of alternate routes of two lane back roads.The mpg of this particular vehicle has not been checked under these conditions in the past so we have nothing to compare the mileage numbers with. Still the 38mpg of congested driveing would suggest the numbers should be greater once we get back on the interstate. Right now we have set the trip odometer and will be adverageing the mpg at 1000, 2000, and 3000 miles. This should take about 6 weeks since we dont plan any special trips to specificly check the fuel mileage.

No news on the HHO converted ranger. Since this particular vehicle is a daily driver, the mileage only gets checked at each fillup. This vehicle doesnt see the trip miles as the escort and hasnt ran thru its second tankload of fuel yet. Right now, it seems a tank of gas is lasting longer, but thats just a casual observation and not based on any concrete facts.

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Hydrogen injection

by Stratous - 7/19/08 2:40 PM

In Reply to: update by muddstopper

Everyone is an expert these days. Running a small amount of Hydrogen does improve fuel economy, as least it did for me. I went from 17 to 24 MPG in town in my Dodge cummins diesel. There is a car dealer in Alexandria LA that installs hydrogen generators into their brand new cars. Hydrogen injection is pretty big right now, there are thousands of people using it and seeing an increase in MPG. Its hard to argue with actuall people who are using it.

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This is from consumeraffairs

by Justin277 - 7/19/08 2:18 PM

In Reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08

http://consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/07/water4gas.html

doesnt sound to good to me

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Not impressed with the consumer report

by muddstopper - 7/19/08 7:21 PM

In Reply to: This is from consumeraffairs by Justin277

After looking at the masonjar setup, Mr.David Wood might be correct about this device ability to generate enought Hydrogen to run a automobile. The devices I have seen look nothing like a masonjar. I have seen for my own eyes a lawnmower run for over two hours with no gas at all, nothing but pure water in a little better setup than the mason jar. The owner of the mower even mowed his grass while he had the mower running. I am not a rocket scientist, but if you can generate enough hydrogen with a lawnmower electrical system to keep the mower running, then why cant you do it with a automoble that has a much larger electrical chargeing system? I will agree that there are a lot of scams out there, but I personaly know people that are getting 10mpg extra out of their hydrogen conversion setups in Ford Rangers, Chevy S10's, and toyota pickup's.

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Yes there are systems that do help but..........

by steeverrino - 7/20/08 1:13 PM

In Reply to: Not impressed with the consumer report by muddstopper

There are very expensive systems out on the market that generate several liters per minute. The Waterforgas system advertised does little to generate anything near the amount needed for the percentages they claim.

Even with the expensive systems, trucks usually gain only 4% better mileage. For them, 4% is a lot and will help hugely with the diesel bills.

Using a jam jar with plastic and stainless steel wire does little. Using baking soda as Mr. Freedom recommends is not the best idea either.
And using a bungee cord to keep a glass container constrained in a moving automobile is a real bad idea.

Yes you can run a small engine on hydrogen and oxygen. I have done it myself on a lawn mower. The energy used to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen I used was from an extension cord. I might as well have run an electric motor on the lawn mower.

As far as I can tell, MR. Freedom's system is nothing but junk.

And I have to ask, how are you checking your mileage? By just filling up?
Here is a more scientific method. Get a one gallon container with precise measurements indicated on it. Use that tank as your fuel tank for the tests. Fill with fuel and run it almost dry. DO not allow fuel injected engines to run dry. Allow for a pint of fuel to remain.

Do that at least 20 times while charting your mileage. Make sure you run the same road with little or no wind. Use cruise control and keep the same MPH for each run. After at least 20 runs, average out your mileage. That will be your base mileage.

Then install your HHO generator. Run the same test doing at least 20 runs. Average the 20 runs and that will indicate weather you have an increase in mileage or not.

I did that with my Honda and I used higher quality materials than the water 4 gas system. I was running 10 amps at running temperature.
I used 3 negative stainless steel plates, 3 positive plates and 6 neutral plates. Each plate was sanded for better bubble creation. The stainless steel was 316 grade sheet at .01625. I used 100% pure sodium hydroxide at a 6 1/2% mix with distilled water. I found that over 6 1/2 % you get too much of an amp draw. My amperage jumped from 10 to 38 if I exceeded the mix.
My voltage was 3.4 volts per cell. I used lexan as the container and used a bubbler to prevent backflash explosions. I wired it with 03 copper wire using an 80 amp breaker. My system allowed for about 2.2 liters of gas per minute. No copper contacted the water/sodium hydroxide mix.

Here are my results.
My Honda 91 civic CRX HF without the system......52.3 MPG.
My Honda 91 Civic CRX HF with the system.........54 MPG.

These are real world results of 20 runs each.

I then tried the same test with the addition of a O2 sensor modification. That modification was adding an O2 sensor control box.

Here are the results....My 91 Honda civic CRX HF with system and O2 control box......a whopping 55.2 MPG. A lousy 2.9 MPG increase with all the junk under the hood.

Not much better than stock.

Not even worth the effort. 1.7 lousy MPG at first and a final 2.9 MPG. With all the upkeep of the system, I just can't see the average Joe or Jane having one of these in their car.

And by the way, Scanguage or other computers are being touted as the best way to indicate mileage. I have seen arguments that that is not the case. Real world tracking is needed to accurately measure mileage claims.

The mantra from the Ozzie Freedom's of the world is that they are not trying to run a car, but to supplement. Well the only thing I can see being supplemented is their wallets.

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It does work

by Stratous - 7/20/08 4:34 PM

In Reply to: Yes there are systems that do help but.......... by steeverrino

Just because it didnt work for you doesnt mean that it doesnt work for anyone else. I have had my system in for almost 3 months and the milage is consistant. Dont insult my intelligence by assuming I dont know how to figure out my MPG. I have been driving the same vehicle for a few years, so I know what the MPG was before because I kept track of it. I know several people who have increased their mpg alot more than you did. Perhpas you didnt get much increase in your MPG because you didnt know what you were doing? Maybe you dont know how to figure MPG? http://www.hhoforums.com/index.php?referrerid=49

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I know of what I speak

by steeverrino - 7/20/08 9:03 PM

In Reply to: It does work by Stratous

I have been in the automobile industry for over 25 years. I have mechanical experience and have worked with engineers at several corporations. I have 4 patents regarding the automotive industry and have AP experience having served 8 years in the US Air Force. I was trained to be very meticulous when it comes to mechanics. Taking care of F4 Phantoms and later F 15 Strike Eagles, you have to be shall I say, good at what you do or you will be responsible.

I do know what I am talking about. And so far, no one has been able to prove that HHO actually works. I have yet to see scientific evidence that any system can provide exceptional mileage gains. Yes gains are possible. Those gains may not be because of the system installed. I have seen people install an HHO system and then do a complete tune up. They then say, Oh my goodness, I got an extra 5 MPG. Yet they fail to realize that the tune up probably had more to do with the tune up. I have also seen people who add a system and then change the way they drive. They go into the I've got to save gas mode and drive slower and easier. Of course mileage gains would be present then.

IF you can prove that you get 25% or more mileage gains, You should get into the one million dollar HHO challenge.
There is a gentleman who is going to pay the first person to prove mileage gains of at least 25%. So far no one has taken him up on the challenge. Why don't you take your car and show this guy that you do get all that mileage gain.

Does HHO work? SO far it shows that it does, but not at the levels that are being advertised. As I have stated, I get a little over 2 liters per minute output and it does not give me the gains in MPG that make it worth the time or money.

I have gotten better mileage buy blueprinting my 1.5 liter engine, ported and polished the heads and use Amsoil. I average a little over 50 MPG with my CRX in real world driving and I keep it in top mechanical condition. I have dyno'd the car and it outputs 72 HP.

You obviously did not read my previous post. You cannot figure MPG by using your gas gauge or scangauge. You must take a measured amount of fuel and run the engine the same way every time. You must be precise in order to get precision. You must take into consideration wind, air temperature, humidity, and several other factors. Just putting gasoline in your tank just does not cut it. MPG is really not the issue anyways. IT should be gallons per mile.
The amount of gasoline used per measured distance instead of the amount of measured distance per gallon of gas. Now that would be precise.

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HHO

by Stratous - 7/21/08 3:35 PM

In Reply to: I know of what I speak by steeverrino

ported and polished 1.5L that only puts out 72hp pushing a crx and still gets 50MPG? Did you misprint your HP? I could care less what your credentials are. I have seen alot of "smart" people that have zero common sense and cant think outside of the box. I am also a mechanic and have served in the Air Force now for 19 years. I dont need to be specific on my MPG. I have had the system in the truck for 3 months and gotten pretty much the same MPG. Yes, if I want to know down the the 10th then I would have to do it your way. But, people have been figuring their MPG the same way I do for many years and has become an accepted method of figuring generalized MPG. Dont take my word for it, visit the link I posted above and see all the people that have posted gains. I have played alot with hydrogen generation via electrolysis and 2LPM is alot, especially for a 1.5 liter engine. How many amps were you drawing to produce so much? How large was your system? 2 LPM is no easy task to maintain w/o pulling alot of power from your battery/alternator. Perhaps you were increasing the load on your engine to much? Its possible that injecting all that extra oxygen into your engine only made the ECU dump more fuel as the O2 sensors read a lean condition.

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The Honda CRX

by steeverrino - 7/22/08 9:25 AM

In Reply to: HHO by Stratous

The Honda CRX is rated stock at 68 Horsepower. There are very few performance modifications that are available for the 1.5 liter 2 valve per cylinder engines. That is why a bone stock HF is so rare. The big modification is to drop in a V tech engine into them because they were so light and allowed for incredible performance.

I kept mine pretty much stock because I wanted the best MPG possible knowing full well where gas prices were going to go. Yes I posted the HP correctly. Honda's 1.5 does not respond well to many performance modifications. The best mod is to port and polish the head for better air flow. To go from 68 to 72 HP in a car that weighs around 1900 lbs. makes for a little more acceleration and allows for less downshifting. The final gear ratio on the HF is .694 to 1. The gears are very high and allows for low RPM running especially on the highway. HF's are notorious for having to downshift going up hills at highway speeds. That is why no cruise control was offered on the CRX HF.

My final HHO system was built after many, many trial and errors. It's output was a little over 2 liters per minute. Not really a lot but more than most of the other systems out there and quite enough for a bone stock 1.5 liter engine.

I had taken into account the O2 sensor and made several O2 sensor modifications. None of the mods really helped. I tried the O2 spacers and all they did was give me engine error messages and rough running. I also did the O2 mods with pots and when that did not work well, I bought another ECU and had that modified. That smoothed out the engine but did not help with mileage. I am very well aware of O2 sensor problems with HHO. It is very possible that the CRX HF will not respond well to HHO. I have also found that to be the case with my Acura RSX type S and my NSX. My fathers 2006 Mercury also did not realize any appreciable gains in MPG using HHO.

I was pulling 19 amps at 162 degrees and that is not really a lot considering that running straight pos /neg plates were giving me almost 40 amps of draw at 190 degrees. Quite a large draw for such a small engine and only a 60 amp alternator and a 40 amp hour battery. So then I then modified by adding neutral plates and adjusting the electrolyte to a 6% mix of sodium hydroxide/ distilled water. That brought down the amp draw and lowered the temperature. I did find that if you scratch the plates, the HHO will increase by about 18%. The imperfections in the plates from the scratches allows for more edges for bubbles to escape the surface. I also found that the bubbles will generate faster when the vacuum is present. Most people figure HHO output with a static hose with no vacuum. I tested mine with a vacuum present and the HHO output does rise when being run in real world situations...like on a running engine. Most HHO systems boast 1.2 liters per minute. They are actually higher if vacuum is present. But almost no one measures with vacuum present.

My last system was running 14 plates. 3 positive, 4 negative and 7 neutral plates. The unit was made out of 1/4 inch lexan at 2.2 liter electrolyte capacity. I also ran a small transmission oil cooler to keep the temperature down. I ran a bubbler to prevent any explosions.

All of that for a lousy few MPG.

I am not yet ready to say that HHO is a waste of time. But so far, myself and a few others I know of cannot say that HHO is worth the effort.

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