Car Tech forum: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

I learned something new again. I had thought... hoped, that tax credits were the first 60K of each model. But it's just the first 60K of all hybrid models the maker sells.

I can actually mathmaticaly come up with a situation where you might save money on a hybrid, if you really get $3,150 back from taxes. Of course I wouldn't because I'm in a lower tax bracket.

Once again, never trust government. Tax credits are a far cry from tax cuts. We need to cut taxes, not put a bandaid on it that falls off after 60K cars.

I'm still against any tax cut, break, credit, whatever... that isn't permanent. And even then I'm against any selective tax breaks.

Taxes should be flat across the board. If I pay it, you should pay it, and everyone else should pay it. If I don't pay it, why should you pay it, and why should anyone else pay it?

If we truely believe that man is created equal, like our constitution says, why should anyone pay a tax less or more than anyone else for any reason?

Government is supposed to be "for the people" not "for the people who do what government wants".

Aaaahhh, you "Greenies" are suckers for buying into the Hybrid fantasy. Yes, you will save money in your "George Jetson" car, but where do all the batteries go after seven years? NIMBY!!!! Ethanol or E-85 works. Now some of you will say that you use less fossil fuels than E-85. Wrong!!! My Mercury Mountaineer uses 40% less fossil fuels than the Prius and pays the way for the taxes required to maintain our roads. You say there is not infrastructure for Ethanol? There is no infrastructure for imported oil. One tanker, off the coast blows 273,000 tons of NOx, sulfur-type emissions, not including particulate matter. We also do not need to send dollars overseas, instead of keeping it in our own pockets!!!

Do the Math!!!!

Use of the roads without paying for it is causing some consternation among the various state legislatures. I thought about a Hybrid, but looked at the long term impacts vs immediate self-gratification. Maybe I should have said "Greedies" and not "Greenies." Maybe I'll get a hybrid Chevy Silverado?

About this recycling thing- I remember when lead-acid batteries were "recycled." Plastic emits PCB's and although you may be able to recover or "recycle" 25% of the content of batteries, imagione the energy it is going to take, going into recycling and DISPOSAL. We can dump this excess material in your backyard pool, right?

As far as your argument with food: At the present time, there is a bumper crop of corn and other items, like cheese whey, that can be converted into ethanol. Saw-grass or cellulose processing is being refined and is about two years out before mass-production kicks in. Two factors that have not been considered in these "studies" are the billions of tons of pollutants a single tanker emit over imported oil and the fact that methane, from steer manure, is providing the power to process ethanol.

About food? What about revenues to support road construction and maintenance? Let's face it, supply and demand is the basis of all economics. Next year, cotton farmers are swictching to corn and the corn that is generally used in processing, is meant for livestock, not people. As far as the rest of the world? Pres. Hugo Chavez and the Emirs have showed us the way we should go. So you keep sucking down their imported oil. Maybe you should bend-over too and not so they can kiss your behind?

So, the next time your "hyperdriving" down the HOV at 35 MPH, on the freeway, watch out for the car, SUV or Truck that coming up behind you! It is burning a renewable fuel, at a rate of 40% less fossil-fuel (which means less pollutants) than your "George Jetson" crunchable beer can. My advice? Get the heck out of the way and get in the "Driving Miss Daisy" lane, please!

"Greenies?" Not hardly!!! W.C. Fields said it best- "A sucker is born every minute." Oh yes, please forgive me for holding back!!!

Just a few things.

I don't believe that the majority of the batteries in use by hybrids are Lead/Acid, but are in fact NiMH batteries. I don't know a great deal about battery technology, but I have heard that Toyota has a fairly aggressive recycling campaign for their batteries. As other posters have pointed out, we have no way of knowing how completely they can recycle those batteries, but every little bit helps.

I don't know where you got the idea I'd want it dumped in my non-existent pool. Since it doesn't exist, please don't attempt to dump there.

I didn't discuss food, so I won't be the one addressing that point.

I believe the term is "HyperMiling".

I think the quote you're trying to come up with is "There's a sucker born every minute... and two to take 'em" which is commonly attributed to P.T. Barnum. W.C. Fields is known for saying, "Never give a sucker and even break".

Thanks for being as charming as ever.

If your refering to my reference to lead acid storage batteries I was looking at storage batteries for the home portion of a solar at home installation, for the Plug in Hybrid. Correct me if I am wrong but those are generally Deep Cycle or AGM bats.

Yes it is expensive to put a home solar system on a roof, yes like all systems it has some drawbacks, but it is one step.

... a gallon of ethanol contains about 76k BTU's vs. about 116k BTU's for gasoline ... so gasoline has about 53% more energy than ethanol, not 200% as stated ...

In practice, a gasoline car will get about 35-40% better gas mileage than an E85 car ... a significant difference that should be understood, but it's not quite 3:1 ...

Ethanol is more conductive than gasoline, and therefore contributes to galvanic corrosion in gas tanks that are not designed and constructed with appropriate materials ... but it also burns cooler than gasoline, reducing the need for high-temp materials ...

Everything is a trade-off ...

Regards,
Greg

There are some problems that need be solved w/E85 to make it a viable large scale replacement for using pure to 90% gasoline (E10): lack of availability/supply in many parts of the US, the mileage penalty and cost.

I live in San Jose, CA. Per http://www.e85fuel.com/, there's a whopping *ONE* publicly accessible E85 station in the whole state, which happens to be the closest one to me. Even if I had a flex fuel vehicle, it's a 460 mile drive ONE way for me to get any. Do you think it makes any sense for me to drive 920 miles to buy E85?

BTW, the above station opened in 2003. Fast forward almost 4 years and there's no change except for one coming on June 21, 2007 that's 328.5 miles away!

E85 has less energy content (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/ethanol-10-06/tests-of-ethanol-vs.-gasoline/1006_ethanol_test_1.htm got 10 mpg on E85 running an 07 Chevy Tahoe vs. 14 mpg w/gaosline), so E85 would need to be about 71% the cost of gasoline to make any sense for consumers to even buy.

Third, there's even debate on whether the energy output from ethanol is greater than the energy input into creating it. Let's assume there is a net gain... but we still have the above two problems.

There's plenty of infrastructure for gasoline retailing and shipping gasoline through existing pipelines. AFAIK, ethanol CANNOT be sent thru existing pipelines. That's what's meant by no infrastrucutre.

Portable power transportation is what gas offers to car engineering. Gas is extremely portable and relatively inexpensive to obtain. Diesel is in that same bag. VW had a diesel Rabbit that got a rated 51 mpg, 15 years ago.

Honda is reported to have a "clean diesel" and is selling it in Europe now. It has a mpg rating as good or better than the hybrids, is much larger, and takes a lot less energy to build batteries and recycle them.

Yet I am in the automotive business, working mostly with USA tier 3 sub-contractors, and sadly I don't hear a real buzz for diesels. No one has a good reason why not, except emissions which can be worked on. Yet every company I know that has switched to the diesel powered, Dodge Sprinter for their truck fleet has loved their performance (rated 22 mpg city and 28 highway) and reliability. I swear I have no connection with this vehicle or Dodge trucks that I know of, but it is just reality. Fed Ex, and UPS are switching in the NJ area to the Sprinter for these reasons. I am investigating the purchase of a Sprinter 15 passenger version for our church.

I would buy a diesel powered SUV or mini-van today if one were available. It would be worth an extra $2000 or so to me. I can't fit a Sprinter in my garage. Hybrids don't help my need for multiple all-in-one longer trips from NJ to Detroit, Indiana, Ohio, Illinois and Arkansas and return to NJ. Their mpg is the same on that trip as I have today.

Hybrid: Initial cost is too much for the amount of gasoline saved.

PLUS (what no one ever seems to want to talk about) -- how long does the hybrid's battery package last and how much does it cost to replace it when it dies? Proponents seem to dance around this question without a straight answer.

Greens, who have a cow over the appropriate disposal of a little old AAA flashlight battery are silent about the disposal and replacement of the hybrid's massive, high voltage batteries. Why?

What effect does cold (or hot) weather have on the efficiency as well as the life of the hybrid's batteries (for those of us who don't live in California)?

I suspect the reason for the silence is because an honest answer to the questions would kill all interest in buying such a car, not to mention the economic incentive. But, I'm always ready to learn if I'm wrong.

You've bought into a lot of the anti-hybrid FUD as someone else points out.

See below regarding the costs.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7811_102-0.html?forumID=78&threadID=246092&messageID=2491286#2491286
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7811_102-0.html?forumID=78&threadID=246092&messageID=2492056#2492056

Besides whether or not it saves any money, why does it always have to be about that? How much did a V8 engine save you? How about a sunroof? They're features and you'll never seen any articles about how V8s and sunroofs save $ because they don't. Think about hybrids as having another technology that puts out less pollution (see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm), recaptures and repurposes energy that would otherwise be waste heat and brake test and uses less oil, most of which comes from foreign countries (some of them in unstable regions or who don't like us).

As for the HV battery, it is warranted for 10 years/150K miles on the Prius and Civic hybrid in CA and a couple states in the NE. The batteries are recycled. See http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html. If you've got some to dispose of, Toyota will give you a $200 bounty.

http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm is at 285K miles on his previous gen Prius on the original battery. http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/taxi put 200K miles on his previous gen Prius in 25 months. Per http://online.wsj.com/public/article/PR-CO-20070522-905404-KO8A18uhP7irzpZE6Bd6X5w2rPc_20070522.html?mod=wsjcrmain and http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/03/ford-escape-hybrid-taxis-top-175-000-miles/, 18 Ford Escape hybrids (they use Sanyo batteries vs. Panasonic/Matsushita batts on Toyotas) have exceeded 175K miles within 2 years.

yes, the hybrids do try to keep the engine "warmed up" to increase overall fuel economy, and of course there are always trade-offs, which in this case would include efficiency on short trips in cold weather ...

battery efficiency definitely varies with temperature ... in fact, batteries seem to prefer temperature ranges quite similar to those preferred by humans, so my understanding is that most hybrids circulate cabin air through their battery compartments to help maintain that efficiency as best they can ...

I've got the Lexus RX400h. My wife and I are painfully luxury-minded, but we want to live green as well. She wanted an SUV in about the RX's size range, so it was down to it and its mainstream Toyota sibling, the Highlander hybrid limited. The Lexus won out for its more solid build and more luxurious interior.

The hybrid version of the RX at the dealership was a lot fewer in numbers than the RX350. In choosing a model, they had a white one there, a black one due to arrive in a few days, and a silver one that might have been available if delivered from the Northeast. That was it for the next three or four months. (We got the black one.) The demand is obviously there; why aren't they making more luxury hybrids?

Right now, Lexus is the only luxury brand making hybrids. They're rolling out a hybrid version of each of their models about one a year, with hybrid models right now of the RX, GS, and LS. Given the performance boosts alone, I'm really surprised that even Toyota is dragging its feet in offering a hybrid sports car--sure, they've got great concept cars like the Volta, but there's no hybrid sports cars on any of the dealer's lots. (The Lexus GS460h comes close, but it's more a comfy sedan that happens to perform. For the same money, sports car enthusiasts will gravitate instead towards a Corvette Z06 or an entry level Porsche.) There's also a lot of luxury-minded people who want to live green but don't want to give up leather interiors, roomy cabins, or V10 engines. Why can't Cadillac, Lincoln, Infiniti, Mercedes, and the like see the untapped potential here?

I'm also hoping that Toyota will give Lexus more emphasis on manufacturing hybrid models in higher volume, so we can see more of them on the road.

I must admit that trying a Ford Escape did impress me with how good some things are coming along, it does drive in the batt mode. I don't expect to put my hands in my pocket for one anytime soon. A diesel hybrid that uses capacitors, and not batteries, would probably do it for me.Ethanol made from corn, especially using fertilizer made from Natural gas is just plain stupid. Ethanol made from wood waste is OK. Propane is a very clean burning fuel but the kits are getting scarcer. Still on the sidelines for now. John.

I live in Hawaii where regular gas cost $3.919 a gallon. The wife and I were looking at the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. We looked at the price differece between the Highlander Limited and Hybrid, then did the math. If we were to purchase the more expensive Hybrid model, it would take us 10 years to make up the difference in gas savings. That was ridiculous. We probably wouldn't keep it 10 years! It would be cheaper for us to purchase the Limited with lower mpg, than get the Hybrid. Until prices for Hybrid vehicles come down, we will stick to non-hybrid models.