Car Tech forum: What's your favorite alternative fuel?

H2O is the low energy waste product as far as fuel production is concerned. You have to invest more energy to revert it to H2 and O2 than you ever get back from it. Then you have to invest even more energy to package the H2 into a high pressure storage. Then it leaks like crazy because it is the smallest molecule around and is corrosive. Hydrogen is a very very thermodynamically inefficient fuel. You're better off using batteries.

Solar energy is the way to go. Biodiesel is solar energy in a bottle.

We need new clean energy sources, not a clean synthetic fuel that is a net energy drain.

Do you have a good link that describes the H2 cycle as you understand it?

Here's mine:
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
Author estimates starting with electricity; using hydrogen is ~25% efficient. Using batteries is about 70% efficient.

the h2 fuel cycle always involves large energy inputs twice. Once to generate H2 and again to compress/cool it. Both are significantly less than 100% efficient. Then you account for leakage and transport. Then you have to convert it back to electricity, or combust it. Too many steps, the inefficiencies multiply. Better off using batteries.

favorable h2 fuel cycles involving hydrocarbons or biomass must not account for the byproducts, which are carbon rich energy sources and will also be used, not discarded. that's OK but not so carbon neutral.

Once you have created electricity, nomatter how you created it, you're better off storing it in a battery than producing H2 for transportation use.

There are many better uses of green electricity than producing hydrogen for transportation. I would start by putting coal-fired power plants offline.

Like others, I don't think in terms of alternative fuels, but rather in terms of use. For automobiles, I see Hydrogen as our future, however, I would also like to see development of nuclear. We power our navy on nuclear why not our cars and economy. I see nuclear and solar along with wind as our electrical generation modes. Coal and other CO2 producers need to be phased out. I know that nuclear fission is scary but France has been using it for many years and quite successfully. Perhaps that is one thing we can learn from them. Fusion is a different kettle of fish, it is a long way off and will not be economically feasible for longer than many of us have years to live.

hydrogen costs a lot of energy to produce and package. Then it leaks like crazy. Batteries are a better deal than hydrogen. It's basic thermo.

There are many reasons to devote our research and development efforts toward batteries and toward increasing the efficiency of electrical automotive propulsion methods, and completely abandon any type of liquid or gaseous fuel for automobiles. My reasons for holding this rather radical position are as follows:

1. Electric automotive propulsion is inherently more efficient than any method that uses fuel to produce heat and converts that heat into motion. Indeed, electric motors are ideal to convert energy into any motion that is impelled by the spin of wheels. In an internal combustion engine, you have the inefficiency of overcoming the inertia and momentum of the constantly reversing pistons, and the friction required to mechanically convert their up-and-down motion to spin. You have the losses from heat dissipated through the exhaust and by the cooling system, a HUGE amount of energy that is simply lost. And you have the losses from all the compromises in tuning that are needed to accommodate the wide range of speed and load that a car engine has to deal with. Electric motors spin as their primary motion, and full torque is enjoyed throughout the RPM range. This will allow transmissions, and all the energy lost through their weight, friction and clutching mechanisms, to be completely eliminated from electric automotive design.

2. Pure electrical propulsion with battery storage allows automobiles ultimately to be powered by any fuel that can be used to generate electricity, including gas and oil, natural gas, biofuels, coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, geothermal, solar, hamsters on exercise wheels, whatever. This will significantly mitigate the effects of any shortage of any specific type of fuel, thereby greatly increasing energy security as it relates to transportation.

3. There are tremendous efficiencies enjoyed by generating electricity in bulk over smaller systems like fuel cells and liquid-fueled engines. Plug-in/battery electrics use these bulk generating systems and experience the efficiencies they afford.

4. Powerplants of whatever design, whether oil-, gas- or coal-fired, hydroelectric, nuclear or whatnot, are built to accommodate peak loads. The VAST majority of electric automobiles will be recharged at night when there is excess capacity that is currently utterly wasted. This is an additional efficiency that is truly significant when measured on a nationwide basis, and will result in the need for far less additional capacity to handle the additional load on the electrical grid that electric cars represent.

5. Electricity can be generated by a wide variety of systems, including systems that can be wholly owned and operated by individuals on property belonging to individuals. These "personal" systems can include solar panels, wind generators, and other systems as the property on which the individual lives may allow. Therefore, some percentage of the population will be able to produce at least some portion of the energy required to fuel their own automobiles without relying on commercial or community systems at all.

6. The political effects of our current system of fueling transportation has led to significant disruption to our lives, our freedoms, and world peace. Our foreign policy is beholden to those nations from whom we can obtain petroleum. Our domestic political landscape is dominated by the purveyors of automotive fuels whose self-interests conflicts in many ways from the wishes and needs of the vast majority of the American people. Whether we talk of fossil fuels, biofuels like ethanol, or hydrogen, these same forces will inevitably come to control the distribution of these fuels. Their control, however, can be broken by electrically-propelled automobiles where the sources of energy are so various and readily available to individuals. Electric cars can therefore help to restore a more responsive and representative democracy to America more in keeping with the bold and enlightened intentions of our Founding Fathers.

Research has to be conducted, both on batteries and charging mechanisms, to achieve rapid recharging of batteries, and cars need to be designed with standardized removable, replaceable battery packs that can be swapped out robotically at "re-energizing stations" more quickly than you could fill your tank at a filling station. Imagine being low on charge after three or four hundred miles of driving, pulling onto a conveyor like in a car wash, hearing a "clunk-clunk" as you're towed along, and just driving off with a fully charged battery, with a transponder in your car scanned so your credit card can be billed for the cost. You'd never need to so much as lower your window.

The Tesla, which overcomes almost every possible objection to electrical automotive propulsion, is still so very primitive and yet so acceptable despite its primitive design. It's based on the piston-engine Lotus Elise, and contains systems that carry forward the gross inefficiencies necessary to overcome the shortcomings of piston engines, A car designed as an electric from the ground up could be viable even with existing technology. It is only a very short research step away from production of an electric car that is better IN EVERY WAY, including range and ease of refueling, from the cars built today. All that is required is to have the will to do it, and to overcome the powerful forces that desire to maintain the status quo in service to their selfish interests.

Well, not H2O, but hydrogen is my favorite alternative fuel. Very dangerous (think Hindenburg), so still needs lots of research, but when you burn hydrogen, what do you get? That's right, H2O... or water! You could literally drink the exhaust.

"Soda" Bob.

When I play golf, unless it is absolutely necessary, I walk instead of riding a cart. It is far healthier, doesn't wear out the course so much, and allows you to play at a manageable pace. Also, I have seen that carts do not speed up play significantly, unless the golfers play quickly, too. On a day where there are a lot of golfers on the course, it doesn't matter how many carts are out on the course, play is going to be backed up anyway due to the sheer volume of players. Pull carts are nice if you cannot carry a light bag.

It has even gotten to the point where golf course architects are returning to the idea of course that are very challenging, but ones you can walk instead of being so expansive that the only way you can get around is to ride a cart.

I said it before and I'll say it again:

It's clean (Provided you charge your car with electricity coming from solar panels or windenergy)

It doesn't require any complex processes to create and store the fuel (hydrogen does)

and all the other things I'm not thinking of right now.

Anyway, take a look for yourselves on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4

Or read about it on the companies website: http://www.theaircar.com/

Elegant, clean, acceptable speed and actionradius (for me that is).
They're also improving upon the current technology, so we'll see faster cars that can run for longer pop up soon.

This IS the fuel of the (nearby) future for me.

grts,
Vince

ethanol won't scale. If it becomes "the" fuel, there'd be no room for crops other than corn in the US. Electricity would be good, though we're far away from having a battery that will take us more than 20 miles. Petroleum works really well, and there is more of it now than there was 20 years ago, if we'd tap it. But it's messy. Nuclear...too much weight for shielding. I keep coming back to hydrogen. Cheapest of all, once it's in production, most plentiful...oh, but the technology! How long until it's more than a lab model or a pipe dream? Bill Gates, here's an investment for you.

A lot of the alternative fuels are not as as beneficial as we believe!!

Ethanol is just basically converting food to fuel the more ethanol produced the higher the price of food!!

Electrical is just an environmental disaster. The harm to the environment in producing the batteries and the subsequent disposal is just irresponsible. The electricity needed to charge these batteries can be from fossil fuels and the efficiency of charging batteries is low !!

Hydrogen while seeming to be clean etc. is derived from natural gas another fossil fuel. Obtaining hydrogen from water just uses electricity from another source with its own problems

The best fuel hasn't been developed yet, fossil fuels will get better over time, as technology improves as will hydrogen. Bio fuels just don't make sense, and until we can store electricity in a non polluting manner electrical will continue to be a curiosity.

The point I am trying to make is the the total impact and benefits must be examined before jumping to any of the sexy options.

1. It is not clear that, outside of limited city driving, Hybrids are more fuel efficient than their traditional counterparts. In addition, something about heavy metals mined in China (that go into the batteries), along with the limited lifespan of such a vehicle (who's gonna replace batteries on a 150,000 mile car?) lead me to believe that they are not more green than a traditional car.

2. Hydrogen cannot be easily stored or transported, as it leaks thru metal storage tanks and pipes. Hydrogen cannot be efficiently "mined" from water -- it is a net energy loss game. If you had a source of hydrogen sitting around, then it makes a dandy motor fuel, but right now these limitations kill this idea (and has for 100 years).

3. Biofuels -- ditto on the net energy loss game. I live in farm country. If you converted all of the farm land in the USA to biofuels, then we'd be awfully hungry, and only offset 20% of our energy needs.

My favorite is diesel - a good tubro Jetta will get 50 mpg and run 150 mph, and the car is good for 300,000 miles. Newer diesels are as clean, or cleaner, than the hybrids in normal driving. However, this still doesn't get me around the problem of fighting wars for oil, or supporting governments that pay for people to attack us.

Every year, at least a $Billion goes into traditional internal combustion motor development (heck, half of that from F1 teams alone). This investment has been happening for over 100 years. It will be tough to find a better alternative to this technology anytime soon.

Biomass fuel is the future. Look it up. Hemp seeds can be pressed for oil and used to make fuel. You can grow hemp two times in a season. WE used to grow it all the time for rope and fabric and lots of other things.

ethanol from sugars and starch will not make sense in the long term. ethanol from cellulose may make sense in the long term. there are a lot of cellulose byproducts of other products (wheat straw) that are considered trash today and even ends up in landfills.

biodiesel can come from many sources other than food crops. It can be produced in deserts and possibly at sea. You need water, sunlight, CO2, and a few nutrients.

My two ideal fuels would be bio-diesel from plant wastes, and hydrogen. But, they would have to be produced from a green power source. One source could be solar or wind power. Another could be methane from anim al and plant wastes. It does no good to produce a green fuel using fossil fuels to make it. Hydrogen is, virtually, unlimited. We have "oceans" of it. The danger is the high pressure. It is less dangerous than gasoline when it burns. If the Hindenberg had been filled with gasoline, no one would have survived.

Capacitors are about to be revolutionized. Companies are currently scrambling to mass produce capacitors using carbon nanotube filaments to vastly increase their storage capacity. When they're perfected, these new capacitors will function as batteries do today with the following benefits:

1. No hazardous chemicals (just carbon)
2. Recharges quickly like a capacitor (minutes)
3. Will recharge many more times batteries

These new capacitors will make electricity alternative auto fuel of the future (the near future). It's coming... I'm sure on a small scale... consumer electronics first (cell phones, cameras) and then cars.