Home audio & video forum: HDMI 1.3 question

You need 1.3 on the TV, 1.3 on the player, and also 1.3 color space on the source (Blu-ray, HD-DVD or game disc) to take advantage of it. Since there is currently no 1.3 content to be fed through the 1.3 inputs, it is no big deal.

Like the other poster said, 1.3 is backwards compatible so you don't have to worry about not getting a picture if one of the parts is the older spec.

Hypothetically though, if you did want to take advantage of the new color space, and there was 1.3 content available, then you would need your receivers HDMI's to also be 1.3 if you are running your components through the receiver and out to your TV. Which I am sure that you are or else it would make no sense to have a receiver with HDMI.

So the short answer is that yes you do need your receiver to have 1.3, but you don't need to worry about it until there is actually content to take advantage of the new spec.

I hope that makes sense lol.

um... not quite. Not quite at all.

The only time you need 1.3 for audio is when the scenario plays out with ALL three of the following 1. DTS-HD Master Audio which... 2. cannot be unpacked in the player itself... 3. while having a receiver that can indeed unpack it. (And thats not even getting into smaller details).

HDMI v1.1 should be fine for:
1. TrueHD bitstreamed
2. TrueHD unpacked by player
3. DTS-HD HR bitstreamed
4. DTS-HD HR unpacked by player
5. DTS-HD MA unpacked by player
6. Uncompressed PCM track from player

So, I guess you are either 15% correct, or 85% incorrect.

Please spend some time before you keep misinforming and up-selling your clients. Im doing you a favor. Because this is just on-line banter, but there are some of us that run away very quickly when the salesman or installer knows less than the consumer.

just because one element of the system has 1.3 capabilities. The backwards compatibility means everything can get plugged together. Like any chain, there will be a weakest link. Then there is real world implementation to consider. This is very complex & a challenge incorporating this new stuff for the component makers. With some time, review experience from good sources like C/NET, will reveal better vs. poorer units. And makers will integrate this stuff better too. The real brand name guys will tend to get it right much better than cheap, off brand stuff.

I guess I should have looked it up for my self.
this is what I found.

HDMI FAQ

Contents:
General HDMI Questions
Becoming an Adopter
HDMI Specifications
HDMI 1.3
Trademark and Logo Usage Guidelines
Compliance Testing
Compatibility and Interoperability
Connectors and Cables
Content Protection
HDMI Government Mandates

General HDMI Questions

Q. What is HDMI?
Q. Who supports HDMI?
Q. What are the advantages of HDMI over existing analog interfaces such as composite, S-Video and component video?
Q. What is the advantage of using HDMI over existing audio interfaces such as analog RCA connectors and digital SPDIF?
Q. What is the life expectancy of HDMI?
Q. How can a consumer identify which HDMI products support a specific feature, such as DVD Audio or Deep Color?


Q. What is HDMI?
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is the first and only industry-supported, uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface. By delivering crystal-clear, all-digital audio and video via a single cable, HDMI dramatically simplifies cabling and helps provide consumers with the highest-quality home theater experience. HDMI provides an interface between any audio/video source, such as a set-top box, DVD player, or A/V receiver and an audio and/or video monitor, such as a digital television (DTV), over a single cable.
HDMI supports standard, enhanced, or high-definition video, plus multi-channel digital audio on a single cable. It transmits all ATSC HDTV standards and supports 8-channel, 192kHz, uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby Digital and DTS), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio with bandwidth to spare to accommodate future enhancements and requirements.

HDMI is the de facto standard digital interface for HD and the consumer electronics market: More than 500 companies have become adopters, and more than 130 million devices featuring HDMI are expected to ship in 2007, with an installed based of nearly one billion HDMI devices by 2010 (conservative estimates by In-Stat).
Convergence HDMI is the interface for convergence of PC and consumer electronics devices: HDMI enables PCs to deliver premium media content including high definition movies and multi-channel audio formats. HDMI is the only interface enabling connections to both HDTVs and digital PC monitors implementing the DVI and HDMI standards.
Evolving standard HDMI is continually evolving to meet the needs of the market: Products implementing new versions of the HDMI specification will continue to be fully backward compatible with earlier HDMI products.
Q. Who supports HDMI?
The HDMI Founders include leading consumer electronics manufacturers Hitachi, Matsushita Electric Industrial (Panasonic), Philips, Sony, Thomson (RCA), Toshiba, and Silicon Image. In addition, HDMI has the support of major motion picture producers Fox, Universal, Warner Bros. and Disney, and system operators DirecTV, EchoStar (Dish Network) as well as CableLabs.

Q. What are the advantages of HDMI over existing analog video interfaces such as composite, S-Video and component video?

Quality: Because HDMI is a digital interface, it provides the best quality of the video since there are no lossy analog to digital conversions as are required for all analog connections (such as component or S-video). The difference is especially noticeable at higher resolutions such as 1080p. Digital video will be sharper than component, and eliminates the softness and ghosting found with component. Small, high contrast details such as text bring this difference out the most..

Ease-of-use: HDMI combines video and multi-channel audio into a single cable, eliminating the cost, complexity, and confusion of multiple cables currently used in A/V systems. This is particularly beneficial when equipment is being upgraded or added.

Intelligence: HDMI supports two-way communication between the video source (such as a DVD player) and the DTV, enabling new functionality such as automatic configuration and one-touch play. By using HDMI, devices automatically deliver the most effective format (e.g 480p vs 720p, 16:9 vs 4:3) for the display that it is connected to - eliminating the need for the consumer to scroll through all the format options to guess what looks best.

HD Content-Ready: HDMI devices supporting HDCP have the comfort of knowing they will have access to premium HD content now and in the future. HD-DVD and Blu-ray have delayed the activation of the image constraint token (a.k.a. content protection flag) with todays HD movies to help minimize potential issues caused by the transition, but are expected to activate this in a few years, meaning future HD movies will then not be viewable at HD resolutions over unprotected interfaces such as analog component.

Q. What is the advantage of using HDMI over existing audio interfaces such as analog RCA connectors and digital SPDIF (coax and optical connectors)?

Quality: HDMI maintains the audio in its pure digital form all the way to the amplifier. Analog audio connections are more prone to losses depending on the cabling and other electronics of the audio rendering device. Compared to SPDIF connections, HDMI has significantly more bandwidth, allowing it to support the latest lossless audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HS Master Audio. These formats can not be supported over SPDIF connections due to their very high data rate requirements that exceed the capabilities of SPDIF. Please also see section on HDMI 1.3 for further details on Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio formats.

Ease of Use: HDMI combines video and multi-channel audio into a single cable, eliminating the cost, complexity, and confusion of multiple cables currently used in A/V systems. This is particularly beneficial when equipment is being upgraded or added.

Intelligence: HDMI supports two-way communication between the audio source (such as a DVD player) and the audio rendering device (such as an A/V receiver), enabling new functionality such as automatic configuration and one-touch play. By using HDMI, devices automatically deliver the most effective format (e.g Dolby Digital vs. 2 channel PCM) for the A/V receiver that it is connected to - eliminating the need for the consumer to scroll through all the audio format options to guess what is best and properly supported.

Q. What is the life expectancy of HDMI?

HDMI is an evolving standard and changes to meet the needs of the market. HDMI has capacity to spare, and can incorporate new technology advancements and capabilities long into the foreseeable future.

Q. How can a consumer identify which HDMI products support a specific feature, such as DVD Audio or Deep Color?

The key for consumers to remember is that HDMI has consistently enabled a variety of the most innovative new technologies (whether they be DVD Audio, SACD, 1080p/60, etc.). However, in many cases, it is up to each manufacturer to choose which features to implement in any given product. The manufacturer can thus use its knowledge of the market to choose the mix of features that makes sense for its customers. So, customers must choose devices that have the features that they want (instead of focusing on which version of HDMI is implemented by the device.). Consumers interested in confirming whether a particular consumer electronics product supports DVD-Audio or any other feature over HDMI are urged to review users manuals and product reviews and check with manufacturers directly.

Becoming an Adopter

Q. What's the difference between the Adopter Agreement and the Test Equipment Maker Agreement, and which one should I sign?
Q. How do I obtain a license to the HDMI Specification?
Q. Can I review the HDMI Specification before deciding to pay for a license?
Q. What are the fees for HDMI?

Q. What's the difference between the Adopter Agreement and the Test Equipment Maker Agreement, and which one should I sign?

The Adopter Agreement is offered for those parties that desire to make and sell HDMI-based products such as DVD players, set-top boxes, TVs, semiconductors, cables and connectors, etc. The Test Equipment Maker Agreement is offered for those parties that desire to make and sell test equipment such as oscilloscopes, wave form generators and other measurement tools designed to assist manufacturers in using the Compliance Test Specification to test their HDMI products for compliance with the HDMI Specification.

Q. How do I obtain a license to the HDMI Specification?
HDMI is licensed under reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. The Adopter Agreement or Test Equipment Maker Agreement detailing the licensing terms is available in Becoming An Adopter in the Manufacturer area of this site. Please follow the instructions for downloading and submitting the appropriate agreement along with your payment in order to obtain a license to the Specification.

Q. Can I review the HDMI Specification before deciding to pay for a license?
Yes. Before downloading the specification, you will need to fill out a short form. Please visit the Manufacturer area of this site to download the HDMI Specification.

Q. What are the fees for HDMI?

Annual Fee
HDMI Adopters must pay an annual fee of ten thousand dollars (US$10,000). The annual fee is due upon the execution of the Adopter Agreement, and must be paid on the anniversary of this date each year thereafter. Note that HDMI does provide an alternative annual fee payment for small-volume manufacturers (10,000 units or less). Please see Attachment B of the Adopter Agreement for details.

Royalty
HDMI is available for a reasonable royalty rate as follows:
For each end-user Licensed Product, fifteen cents (US$0.15) per unit sold.
If the Adopter reasonably uses the HDMI logo on the product and promotional materials, then the rate drops to five cents (US$0.05) per unit sold.
If the Adopter implements HDCP content protection as set forth in the HDMI Specification, then the royalty rate is further reduced by one cent (US $.01) per unit sold, for a lowest rate of four cents (.04) per unit. Adopters must license HDCP separately from Digital Content Protection, LLC, an Intel subsidiary. Please see www.digital-cp.com for details.
Products Subject to Royalty
The HDMI royalty is only payable on Licensed Products that will be sold on a stand-alone basis (i.e. that are not incorporated into another Licensed Product that is subject to an HDMI royalty). For example, if a cable or IC is sold to an Adopter who then includes it in a television subject to a royalty, then the cable or IC maker would not pay a royalty, and the Adopter television manufacturer would pay the royalty on the final product. If the cable is sold directly to consumers, then it would be subject to a royalty.

Please see Attachment B of the Adopter Agreement for royalty and annual fee details.

HDMI Specifications

Q. When was the HDMI Specification released?
Q. What functionality was added to each specification?
Q. What has been added in the HDMI 1.3 specification?
Q. Are all of the new HDMI versions backward compatible with previous versions?
Q. How can I get the latest HDMI Specification?


Q. When was the HDMI Specification released?

The initial HDMI 1.0 specification was released in December 2002.
Version 1.1 was released in May 2004.
Version 1.2 was released in August of 2005.
Version 1.2a was released in December of 2005.
Version 1.3 was released in June of 2006.

Q. What functionality was added to each specification?

The following provides an overview of major functionality added to each version of HDMI:

HDMI 1.1
Support for DVD Audio
HDMI 1.2
Adds features and capabilities that increase HDMI's appeal for use in both the CE and PC industries. Specifically, the features and modifications for HDMI 1.2 include:
Support for One Bit Audio format, such as SuperAudio CD's DSD (Direct Stream Digital)
Changes to offer better support for current and future PCs with HDMI outputs, including:
Availability of the widely-used HDMI Type A connector for PC sources and displays with full support for PC video formats
Ability for PC sources to use their native RGB color space while retaining the option to support the YCbCr CE color space
Requirement for HDMI 1.2 and later displays to support future low-voltage (i.e., AC-coupled) sources, such as those based on PCI Express I/O technology
HDMI 1.2a
Consumer Electronic Control (CEC) features and command sets and CEC compliance tests are now fully specified.
Creation of version 1.2a of the HDMI Compliance Test Specification (CTS), which includes a CEC Supplement. HDMI CTS 1.2a has been updated for technical consistency with HDMI Specification 1.2a as well as to the recently released HDMI Specification 1.2.
Significantly, CTS 1.2a contains additional cable and connector testing and Authorized Testing Center (ATC) submission requirements. Specifically, under CTS 1.2a, the Adopter shall submit for testing to the ATC any new HDMI cable whose length exceeds previously tested cables.
Additionally, HDMI Licensing, LLC will maintain a list of approved connectors. For a device to pass CTS 1.2a testing at an ATC, all connectors on such device must appear on the approved connector list. To add a connector to this list, the vendor must submit to the ATC or HDMI Licensing, LLC full and passing testing results.
Q. What has been added in the HDMI 1.3 specification?

Please see the HDMI 1.3 section below for more information on version 1.3.

Q. Are all of the new HDMI versions backward compatible with previous versions?

Yes, all HDMI versions are fully backward compatible with all previous versions.

Q. How can I get the latest HDMI Specification?

Please visit the Manufacturer area of this site to download the HDMI Specification.

HDMI 1.3

Q. Whats new in the HDMI 1.3 Specification?
Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?
Q. What is the difference in quality between listening to Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD over HDMI, SPDIF (i.e. coax or optical), or analog from the player to the A/V receiver?
Q. What is the difference between decoding Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD in the player (i.e. sending over HDMI as decoded PCM) vs. decoding in the A/V receiver (i.e. sending over HDMI as encoded Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD bitstream)?
Q. What products or applications will take advantage of new HDMI 1.3 capabilities?
Q. What is meant by the term "Deep Color" and why is it important?
Q. What is x.v. Color or xvYCC?
Q. What is the difference between "Deep Color" and x.v.Color or xvYCC?
Q. When will products with HDMI 1.3 capabilities be available to the public?
Q. How will consumers know which products have the latest implementation of HDMI 1.3?
Q. Is HDMI 1.3 backward compatible with prior releases of the HDMI spec and with DVI?
Q. Why is Lip Sync important?



Q. Whats new in the HDMI 1.3 Specification?

Higher speed: Although all previous versions of HDMI have had more than enough bandwidth to support all current HDTV formats, HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future HD display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds.
Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.
Broader color space: HDMI 1.3 adds support for x.v.Color (which is the consumer name describing the IEC 61966-2-4 xvYCC color standard), which removes current color space limitations and enables the display of any color viewable by the human eye.
New mini connector: With small portable devices such as HD camcorders and still cameras demanding seamless connectivity to HDTVs, HDMI 1.3 offers a new, smaller form factor connector option.
Lip Sync: Because consumer electronics devices are using increasingly complex digital signal processing to enhance the clarity and detail of the content, synchronization of video and audio in user devices has become a greater challenge and could potentially require complex end-user adjustments. HDMI 1.3 incorporates automatic audio synching capabilities that allows devices to perform this synchronization automatically with total accuracy.
New HD lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMIs current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby Digital and DTS), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?

No. The Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD Master Audio can be decoded by the playback device into multi-channel Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital audio streams, which is an audio format standard that can be sent over any version of HDMI. In fact, all versions of HDMI can support up to 8 channels of PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per sample.

lossless audio format over HDMI
To do this, consumers should ensure that their playback device (such as HD-DVD or Blu-ray player) is capable of decoding these new lossless Dolby & DTS audio formats into the PCM format on the HDMI output, and that the audio device (such as an A/V receiver) is capable of receiving multi-channel PCM audio over the HDMI inputs. Consult your user manual/product specification sheet to determine whether your device supports such PCM capabilities (we believe that nearly all HD-DVD and Blu-ray players will, but users should confirm this). Devices that support HDMI v1.3 and higher may also offer the option to transport the high definition audio formats as a compressed, encoded stream over HDMI so that the decoding function can be performed by the A/V receiver (whereas the above transport method has the playback device performing the decoding).

So with HDMI 1.3 you could get more control over each speaker and setting for room setup?
Im guessing its like my dvd audio player that hooks up with 6 channel pre-outs, the player decodes it and I have to set the speaker distance and db levels in the disc player vs doing it through the reciever?

and if so a hdmi 1.3 reciever will give you more option most of the time for distance, db level, bass managment, and using the calibrated mic settings, correct?

Plus do most receiver companys really say they can or cannot do PCM over HDMI 1.1 or 1.2?

I dont like being wrong, so please help me.

thanks
gabe

But I'll try to hit your questions up, even if I may have already in a previous query of yours regarding BD players.

So with HDMI 1.3 you could get more control over each speaker and setting for room setup?

A receiver with audio enabled HDMI will give you more control over such factors. But it has NOTHING to do with being v 1.3. v1.1 will do so as well.

Im guessing its like my dvd audio player that hooks up with 6 channel pre-outs, the player decodes it and I have to set the speaker distance and db levels in the disc player vs doing it through the reciever?

This could be the case. The "fishiest" thing about MCA's from the player is the BM (not bowel movement, but bass mgmt). There is little consistency among players, and I highly recommend browsing owner's threads for any model to know what they typically do. Often, there is a -10db cut in the sub output. Also, fixed x-overs are typical.

Although I used to say "decode", the proper terminology is "unpack". The new formats are not decoded, there is nothing to decode. Its simply like unzipping something, or opening up the box so that the PCM all comes out. I think anyways....

and if so a hdmi 1.3 reciever will give you more option most of the time for distance, db level, bass managment, and using the calibrated mic settings, correct?

Again, I must reiterate, it has nothing to do with being v1.3. It is only because it is a receiver and not a disc player. Just by their respective natures will they have such varying degrees of "options".

Plus do most receiver companys really say they can or cannot do PCM over HDMI 1.1 or 1.2?

Any audio-enabled HDMI receiver 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc, will ALL handle PCM.

I dont like being wrong, so please help me.

I sure hope I did not further misinform you.

thanks
gabe

Welcome.

The real simple answer is today No.

In the longer term, maybe but marginally so.

The geek speak benefits are for the most part marginal unless you are striving for as close to pefection as you can get.

Frankly for the average joe and jane, don't worry.