Home audio & video forum: Getting More Out of My Sub

Try setting your speaker size to large Also look at the set up menue in your amp It may have a setting for increasing the output of your sub. I have a Denon 3805 Amp with Atlantic Technology sub In the amp set up menue I have sub set at 0d.b. and volume of sub set at +2 and it sounds wounderful bass hits me in the chest please post back soue would like to knmow what the problem was steweeeee

Thanks for the response guys. I'm going to try a few different things. jcrosbo, that makes sense with the low frequency waves not being able to fully develop. I'll cross it over at 100hz or 120hz and see how that works.

Stewee, I have the level adjustment and like to keep it at 0db and turn the the sub volume up to till it matches the level of the other speakers (currently 50%). I will try to mess with the speaker size; I've just heard that can take away some of the LFE from the sub, but it's worth a shot.

When this sub was in my 13'x16'x12' living room (wood floors) the sub hit really hard and deep even though it was under my tv and at 25% - 30% volume.

I'll get back to you with results this thursday or friday. I'll be pretty busy the next few days.

Josh, i'm glad you got such great feedback on your thread, cuz i figured i'd get some good help as well.

Here's some reading to keep you busy for awhile.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/index.php

There will be a test.

(actually the owner's manuals I talked about above might be much shorter and there are no tests).

RR6

Matt, thanks for the more detailed info, it always helps. I took the time to download the owner's manual for the SPL-1200II. This really helps to see the exact back panel layout on your sub. Also, different brands sometimes use various words to describe the same function. For example, Velodyne uses "subwoofer direct" instead of "bypass" on their crossover toggle switch.

I can't see any glowing problems from what you said but I will simply list the proper settings for your set-up and then some general comments.

...The toggle switch should be set to the "subwoofer direct" setting.

...You should use one of the two input jacks (which happen to be labeled "LFE" ... I think this also confuses many people because it is actually a combination of both low bass and LFE signals presuming you have correctly set the receiver to send both low bass and the LFE signals to the sub), left or right, it makes no difference. You already have a Y-splitter to use both the left and right input and that is fine, just not necessary and costs extra money. Yes, it does increase the output by about 6dB's but the volume dial does the same thing. So it is just a initial volume gain tradeoff.

...An important paragraph on page 7 of your manual states:

"Volume Control
This control allows you to balance the output from the subwoofer to the main speakers/amplifier in your system. This control should be set to achieve similar output level from both the main speakers and the subwoofer when listening to music. A good starting point for the volume control is 3 or 4 dots from minimum." (this is about 11-12 o'clock on this sub)

My thoughts: (This is actually a trim control to balance the output of the sub and speakers. So if you had speakers that were very efficient then this control might have to be higher and on the other hand lower if you have less efficient speakers. I'm mentioning this to make sure that anyone reading my post uderstands that the day to day changes in the volume of the sub are a function of the sub volume controls on the receiver and not this control which normally would be sent during set-up and then left alone).

...Your manual also states: "A bypass switch is also provided if you wish to use an external crossover." This could confuse many because they don't mention that this actually is the switch that they label as "internal x-over/subwoofer direct" instead of "bypass." Secondly, they use the word "external crossover" when they should explain that this usually means an A/V receiver. Velodyne as well as other brands do their customers no favors by not making their manuals clear. You should have seen the sub manual on my previous Energy sub, what a confusing mess!

...Be sure you understand the phase adjustment switch as described on page 7. The music should have lots of heavy and steady bass. This is not always easy to hear, do the best you can. Be sure you are in main lsitening position when you do this, helps if you have your dog or some person do this switching on the back of the sub for you.

... THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT On page 8 the "Crossover switch" paragraph is also not very clear. Anyone with a current A/V receiver that has flexible crossover points every 10-20 decibels or so, which most except the very cheapest ones now have, need to use the "Bypass" setting or in the case of Velodyne they call it the "Subwoofer Direct" setting. Sometimes instead of there being only one input with a two position toggle switch there will be two seperate inputs, one normal and one bypass which accomplish the same thing.

... This confusion is made a little clearer on page 12 in the second paragraph. They still need to explain clearly that Velodyne means the same thing when they use the terms "bypass" and "subwoofer direct."

...Thus when you have your sub corectly set to bypass/subwoofer direct the low-pass crossover dial is actually disconnected and not funtional. Leave it set to the MAX/120 just to be safe in case the dog accidentally brushes against it.

...Completely disregard the two, L&R, RCA OUTPUTS.

...The Infinity Primus speakers here, just for other's general information, are the same speakers as the JBL's Northridge and Venue series with different clothing. This is my conclusion because they are from the same parent company and have the exact same specs, size drivers, cabinet sizes etc. Should be very nice sound.

...Just a curious note here but you have an ever so slight mismatch because you use the Infinity Beta 360 center channel rather than the exact matching Primus C25 center channel. I can only presume that you did this to get a "better" center channel. You have a center channel with a different tweeter than the tweeter in the other four speakers. If the tweeter sound on pink noise is identical to the sound on the Primus speakers in your room then no problem.

...Your Infinity speakers all have a low bass response down to about 38Hz-58Hz or less at -3dB. You should set the bass crossover setting on your Yammie receiver to 80Hz. The only other settings I would even consider are maybe 70Hz or maybe up to 90Hz. But this is a big maybe. 80Hz should be the best and I'm presuming here that the RX-V1500 has one setting for all 5 speakers together. If it has bass crossover settings that can be set independently for all 5 speakers then I would still use 80Hz but try as an alternative, Primus 150 at 80Hz, Primus 360 and Beta 360 at 70Hz. What's the reason for all of this? It is to let the sub take over all of the low bass from 80Hz and down and also all of the LFE special effects signals (which yes are different). All 5 main speakers handle the 80Hz and up range. BTW, this is the THX recommendation and also that of most pros.

...Set the bass management points in the set-up procedures for the Yammia 1500 so that all speakers are set to "SMALL" yes I said "SMALL" and that does not mean "large" ... regardless what all of your friends, neighbors, pastor and the "expert" down at the electronics store say. No, I did not receive this bit of wisdom in a "divine revelation" but from reading 235,739 different opinions of real "experts" including Mr. THX and also Paul McCartney (yeah, yeah, yeah)...sorry, but I'm making this post so long (what's new) that my British humor is setting in.

...Also, however that Yammie handles it, send ALL the low bass and LFE signals to the subwoofer in conjunction with the 80Hz crossover point that you selected. No fudging and think that you might just sneak some of that great bass over to those huge floorstanding speakers you bought with the real big woofers. You think, gee, why did I buy those big speakers (I'm thinking the same thing). You bought them in case you couldn't fork over the money for the sub. Also remember they do play from 80Hz and up, still lots of medium and high bass. Plus the larger speakers can give you more power handling if you ever need it and you don't need stands and they look awesome. Hide the sub and your friends will really be impressed with the low bass output of those towers!

...Normally, the only reason to raise a sub slightly is if it has a downfiring driver and you have deep pile carpeting. Some people place the speakers on spikes rather than simple feet. Otherwise, place it on the floor and in a corner or near a wall. The exact placement of the sub in your room, even a change of several inches can make a big difference. Also once you have got the best location for the sub, moving slightly from your main listening position can also change the sub response or loudness. You must keep this in mind, choose your main seat and always be there when you evaulate the sub with just your ears or the RS meter. Don't be surprised if you finally get it so it sounds great and then when you go sit in that other chair over there that you hear significantly different sub peformance.

...You say: "The sub is running directly to the wall." I presume you mean the power cord? Yes, that is good. Don't use one of the power inputs on the back of the receiver. You might if you have thunderstorms, want to use a small, one plug type, surge protector, companies like APC, Belkin, etc. make them.

...A Radio Shack meter is a great tool. Be sure and get the analog model for the best results. The analog model gives you accuracy down to a 0.5 decibel level versus whole decibels only on the digital model. This slight difference is very important for proper level setting for the 5.1 channels. Do not trust you ears! The human ear is not nearly as precise as that meter. I once set up a my Klipsch by ear back in the nineties. It sounded very good but not great to me. I thought maybe I needed a better system for the best sound. Then I read a detailed review using the Radio Shack meter. I ran down to my local RS. Wow, I couldn't believe it. The difference was a system wide smoothness in the surround sound that I did not have before. It was immediatley evident to me. My very accurate ears (I thought) could not set the channel levels much closer than 1.5 to 2.0dB's. All humans are the same (except Stewie). Use this meter to set the output levels for all channels during the test portion of the manual set-up or to verfiy the accuracy of the YPAO auto set-up system. Later you can also use it to do your own frequency evaluation of your system. You would use a CD or DVD with test tones from 25Hz or so and up (especially up to about 200Hz) or so to see what big peaks or dips you might have in the response. You have to use a "corection table" because the RS meter loses accuracy as it goes down to the lower frequencies. Just to match the channel outputs levels you don't need this. Find the RS correction tables with a Google search or I can link them.

...The YPAO is fine (and better than some of the systems on the other brands). Understand however that it is not perfect and is a marketing driven feature to make it easier for newbies. These systems can be fooled and frequently make mistakes. I highly recommend you double check all the YPAO results manually or simply start all over and do a complete manual set-up.

In my opinion you have something incorrectly set in your receiver set-up procedutes and are not getting the full low bass redirection from the other 5 speakers and also the LFE effects through to your sub.

Have fun checking for the problem and especially let us all know what you find.

RR6

Matt, I'm somewhat confused on some parts of your post, but that is easy when we are throwing all these terms around. So I'll just makes some comments, I did download the RX-V1500 manual to help me.

As a side note for anyone reading this, do not use the 8 ohm-6 ohm or 8 ohm-4 ohm switch on the back of any of these receivers. Always leave it to 8 ohms regardless of what speakers you have. I know some will think I'm crazy so I'll give one of the many pro commments to back up my statement. I don't think Gene DellaSela would mind if I quote his advice on the excellent review he gave on the new Yamaha RX-V659 at the Audiolics.com website:



''''''''Choosing the Speaker Impedance
Yamaha still ships their receivers with the dreaded impedance selector switch. Our advice as always is to use the Minimum 8-ohms setting regardless of the impedance of your speakers. See our editorial note below for further elaboration.

Editorial Note about the Impedance Selector Switch

I recommend the ''Minimum 8-ohms'' setting even for 4-ohm speakers of moderate efficiency (>89dB SPL). Yamaha includes a'' 6-ohm'' setting to satisfy UL heat dissipation requirements when driving 4-ohm loads, as well as easing consumer concerns about driving low impedance loads. These switches step down voltage feed to the power sections which can limit dynamics and overall fidelity. My advice is to keep the switch set to ''Minimum 8-ohms'' regardless of the impedance of your speakers and ensure proper ventilation of the Receiver. Using the 6 ohm setting will reduce power output to your speakers about 15-20% and thus cause higher frequency of amplifier clipping if driven too hard which can damage your speakers.''''''''

To continue Matt; to begin with if you use the auto set-up (YPAO), then I would do the following or override the results subsequent to the auto set-up:

...in auto set-up for Equalizing use ''flat'' or better yet in my opinion use ''skip.'' Set the equalization way down the road after you are sure you have the proper initial speakers levels set.

...set all crossover points to each speaker at 80Hz regardless what the YPAO selects.

...manually confirm all settings yourself and overrride the YPAO if necessary on the data for wiring, distance, crossover and be sure all speakers are set to ''small.''

...(P51 ''Manually Adjusting Speaker Levels'' this is an ''on the fly'' adjustment and for playing with the adjustments later as youlisten to music. I would cross this section out for now and not use it if ever.)

...P52 ''Using the Test Tone'' Make sure you understand this and how to use the RS meter to set these levels yourself, especially don't trust the YPAO settings here. Be sure you do this very carefully and get it down to within a 0.5dB tolerance for each speaker so they are all the same output volume reference level. Hold the RS meter at ear level at your main seating position at straight up pointing at the ceiling. I use either 70dB or 80dB (easier to center the meter than at 75dB) as the reference level to match all 5 speakers. For example, set the range dial to 80, with C weighting and slow response. Now go thru all the channels with the test tone and adjust the level up or down to get the meter as close to 0dB as possible for each speaker. When done all 5 speakers plus the sub should push the meter needle to exactly the same level, 80dB, which in this case will be 0dB on the meter. Be sure you get to within 0.5dB's of accuracy.

Now some prefer to set the sub level at 4dB's higher, but this might be difficult at 80dB's and you might want to try this at 70dB's for the 5 speakers instead of 80dB's and then set the sub level at 74dB's. This is to compensate for the higher desired levels in the LFE channel and another whole discussion.

...P56 Be sure LFE/Bass Out is set at ''SWFR''

...P58 Graphic Equalizer Select GEQ and set all to zero.

...P59 Low Freq Test (very confusing explanation) use 40Hz and 150Hz for good test, I think.

The main thing is to set all the speaker levels carefully and you should get very smooth surround sound. Did you use the ''crawl around'' method for the best sub placement?

ONLY NOW, can you start worrying about whether the individual frequency response of each spearker and the sub are flat. Two ways you can do this.

First go ahead and use the Auto set-up and see what setting it gives for the equalization for the ''flat'' setting. You now know if any of the other measurements are off because you manually checked them as above for accuracy for distance, level, etc. Are the EQ settings way off from flat or 0dB's using the auto method? Then use the RS meter to verify and correct them as much as you can.

The second way is to buy a test CD that has frequency test tones and check out your entire system with the RS meter to plot the results. Stereophile Magazine used to make a good one. Be sure and use a correction chart for the RS meter. Now you have to make corrections to get as flat a response as possible using the controls on the reveiver.

http://ca.geocities.com/gmilitano/Testeq/RadioShack_33-2050/33-2050.htm

The other EQ solutions are with the Velodyne SMS-1 system $599. I bought it mainly because it was far more sophisticated than my prvious system and Outlaw had a combo sale with their subs. They have their own manual they wrote for it online at their website. Also I have only one possible location for my sub plus or minus several inches. This is not good and I am confident that the SMS-1 will solve any serious frequency deviation problems (peaks or dips) I might have. I have read all the reviews on it and it is an amazing tool.

The low cost alternative is to buy an ART 351, 31 band mono graphic equalizer. They are available for about $95 discounted from pro sound dealers like ZZounds. SVS subs used to sell them on their website. I had very good results and got very flat response in my old Energy sub with the ART 351 between the receiver and the sub. You use only the sliders in the bass range to EQ the sub.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ART351

Keep us up to date.

RR6

You said:

''I'm assuming if the chart shows that at (x)Hz the error is -2.5 db, then I will adjust my results at that particular frequency by -2.5 db. Is this correct? And finally, the meter's mic should be facing each speaker with the meter itself parallel to the ground?''

Yes, the correction chart will show how far off from accurate the RS meter is at a particular frequency. The correction chart, for example, at 40Hz shows +2.5. This means that the RS meter reads 2.5dB's low at this frequency. So when you play the 40Hz test tone you need to add 2.5dB's to the indicated reading to get the true variation from 0dB's (flat).

No, the mic should be held away from the body or on a tripod (if you can tilt it up) at the main listening position, at ear level, with the round pickup pointing straight up, directly at the ceiling. Some people tilt the meter forwards about 30-45 degrees or so, you will see both recommended. Some also who use the tilt position will rotate to each side the meter when measuring the side surround speakers.

If this is the EXACT same meter as the RS meter then fine. They run around $40 or so.

http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm

On the below link scroll down to #8;

http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#meter

I recommend that you not do the frequency response tests and adjust the EQ settings from flat until you make sure you have the speaker levels correct and that the volume of the sub sounds fine in relation to the main speakers. This is why I recommend you do all the set-up procedures manually or override the EQ back to flat (0dB for 63, 160, 400, 1K, 2.5K, 6.3K and 12KHz). Then AFTER the YPAO auto-setup and your override or manual setup, and ONLY THEN, check the frequency response and think about touching the EQ settings.

Don't confuse this with getting the speakere ''level'' settings using the test tones so that all speakers are at the same starting reference volume level. The EQ setings are an after thought to take care of problems with dip and peaks in the actual frequency response of the speakers.

The YPAO does all of this at the same time. I am saying that I am sceptical that the YPAO does this accurately in all cases. Most people just use the YPAO and don't check it like I do for accuracy. So you are going in behind the YPAO and double checking all it has done and then re-setting the EQ, crossover points, etc, etc where the meter and your tape measure show that the YPAO might be off.

You said:

'' I'm assuming that when you say, ''set all crossover points to each speaker at 80Hz regardless what the YPAO selects'', you mean to set the LFE at 80Hz and it will automatically set the crossover of each speaker at 80Hz''

Not exactly. Regardless of what the YPAO sets as the crossover points at for all 5 speakers, change it to 80Hz for all 5 speakers (many times the YPAO type auto setups in these receivers will not give the correct crossover settings). Either do this manually yourself or go back in after the YPAO auto setup and change it to 80z for each channel. (all of these receivers have a slightly different procedure for the crossover setup, but the end result is the same...when you have a speaker set to ''small'' then the receiver or you have to choose a ''crossover'' point at which you send the low bass AND the LFE signals to the sub).

There is a lot off confusion about the LFE channel which is the .1 in the 5.1. It is a special signal in movies that has bass information from 120Hz and down (in practice this is really only at about 80Hz and down). It usually jumps to life in special scenes and can attain levels of volume 10dB's louder than the higher bass, mid and treble frequencies. This higher level is necessary because our ears are less sensitive to the very low bass frequencies. Separate from the LFE and part of the 5 normal channels is the regular low bass content (and sometimes very low bass) which is a normal part of the music and movie sound.

Both of these; the LFE channel and the low bass below the crossover point (80Hz in our system) have to be sent to the sub. Receivers are different in their setup procedures but usually there is some reference where you choose in the setup menu to send both of these (LFE and bass below 80z) to the sub. BE sure you clearly understand this so that you make sure that NONE of these two types of low bass below 80Hz are sent ot the main speakers.

(there will be some disagreement about this statement by some who want to share the low bass with the sub and the larger main speakers such as floorstanding towers....in my opinion and that of THX, Dolby, and many pros the best is to use the sub for all below a certain point like 80Hz....suffice to day that in the level of systems that we are talking about here the 80Hz point for all speakers gives the best sound results without excessive tweaking).

Forget P59 for now, it is just a method to get a good volume balance between the sub and the main speakers.

The ART 351 in my system sat directly on top of my sub with some extra rubber feet I used to isolate the vibration. I ran the normal sub cable directly to the input on the ART351 and then a very short sub cable (simply a good quality shielded RCA cable) from the output on the ART 351 down to the input on the sub.

Hope this helps clear up some of the setup procedures.

RR6

I think you're absolutely correct on this. I would never have taken one's word for it. Just adjusting the little I have made a world of difference. Now it would be easy to have the sub over power, but I'm not the bass freak I once was in my teens.

....Matt, I've got different models of Yamaha and also other brands swimming in my head and I obviously was getting the capabilities and procedures mixed up.

Besides trying to help here when I can, I am currently helping four different friends at work choose, buy and set up 5.1 systems. So I have been checking out different Yammie models online and also in person as well as some Denon and other brands.

The built-in crossover points and also any EQ points are very important especially when you get down to smaller speakers. Some of the more expensive models like mine at home have individual crossover choices for each speaker. Apparently yours has one setting for all. That is just fine and much simpler.

Obviously you have a good handle on it now. If I remember correctly only one of the RX-V1500 EQ frequency points is in your sub's range and the others are in the main speaker's range.

I would just sit off to the side of your main seating area and extend your arm while holding the meter at the location where your ears would be when listening.

Have fun. Your welcome to e-mail me also if you prefer.

RR6

RR6,

I did this Wednesday night and I could already tell a difference. I turned the sub volume to about 3.5, used the YPAO and set the eq to mid (better for my center channel). After it was calibrated I turned each speaker down 4 more db and kept the sub at 0 db.

I'll get an spl meter today and tweek it more. I've checked out that link you sent and will explore it more. I'll post more later.

Thanks a lot for the help! Hopefully I won't be too confused with the setup tips and instructions on the audioholics website.