Camcorders forum: Are there any 1080p camcorders out now?

to "consumer"... darn it, I can't call it that with a straight face... and I can't quite call it "prosumer", either... anyway, the Panasonic AGHVX200 says it does 1080p...

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/hvx200microsite/index.asp

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=93120&catGroupId=15768&modelNo=AG-HVX200&surfModel=AG-HVX200

There are lots of 1080i camcorders...

The Canon HV20 is probably an excellent 1080p Camcorder.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/02/canons_new_hv20.html

I have just noticed the following website:-

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468264

It has a 24p mode. A quick Google search finds lots of hits on this.

which say so;

You don't have to rely on those big budget Hollywood studios to get your 1080p fix, because you can make high-resolution videos of your own with the all-new Canon HV20 HD camcorder. Equipped with a genuine Canon CMOS image sensor, this camcorder will do the whole 1080p thing, as well as take stills at a 3 megapixel resolution, get in close with the 10x optical zoom, and even "give home movies the look and feel of film" thanks to the 24p Cinematic Mode. Naturally, with all that zoom, this cam also comes with Super Range Optical Image Stabilization too.

here's another;

Features include a 10x optical zoom lens with three preset zoom speeds for smooth operation, 2.96 megapixel CMOS image sensor, DIGIC DV II image processor, full 1080p capture, and 24p Cinema mode.

Perhaps you know more about it than all these other folks?

It looks to me that the world is not seeing things the way you are seeing them. Check this from Wikipedia;

Sony released the HDR-FX7, HDR-FX7E, HVR-V1U, and the HVR-V1E, marking the world's first full 1080p camcorders in a small format, with both 24p and 30p (only 25p on the HVR-V1E) features on the camcorder (except for the HDR-FX7 and HDR-FX7E).

Then explain to me again about 24p.

totally unusable in that mode? Tell me again Whiz what the Sony camcorders certified by Wikipedia as 1080p camcorders are recording on. Remember this?

In 2006, Sony released the HDR-FX7, HDR-FX7E, HVR-V1U, and the HVR-V1E, marking the world's first full 1080p camcorders in a small format, with both 24p and 30p (only 25p on the HVR-V1E) features on the camcorder (except for the HDR-FX7 and HDR-FX7E).

Do you really think Sony put the capability in the camera with the intention that you could only use it in the vicinity of a TV? Does the term 'computer' ring any bells?

Whiz, you are seriously objecting to carrying a laptop if you want to get 1080p video? Get serious! Lots of people send a camcorder's output to a laptop when they are doing serious recording. It's a way of eliminating tape dropouts. In fact, one of my camcorders SHIPS with the software needed to that.

You don't want to carry the laptop? Use tape.

That's the end of my comments in this thread.

There is a new Panasonic HDC-HS9 495-650 + a flash only version, This camcorder is the only real deal on recording 1080p for less than a grand check it out, I bought a canon hf100 last night (same workings as hv20/30 etc) and found indoor and outdoor hd in full settings maxed to be completely un-usable....Motion Blur + More motion blur in highest mode, same in 25p, Just sent back and now got panasonic, not really been a fan of their cams, but i must say that extra P in the 1080 make a LOT of difference, and its perfect in sports mode for fast objects too.
This really is High Def 1080p Recording camcorder. Darren

Ok, let me inform you of how it really works.

First off, 24p let alone doesn't mean anything. It could be any form of 24 progressive frames per second.
Now, 60i let alone doesn't mean anything. It could be any form of 60 interlaced fields per second.

::::::::::::::::::::::

Catch my drift?

To acheive an apparent image, interlaced content usually runs in 60i or 50i, or 50 to 60 fields per

second if you prefer.

Ok, so some will say, wow, I can do slow motion with that because the human eye only needs about ~30

frames per second for a smooth image, that means half the normal speed slow motion.

But wait, because the content is interlaced, we speek in fields, not frames. 60i content needs 2 fields

to acheive one frame, so it really is only 30 frames per second. So no slow motion

::::::::::::::::::::::

But, this explains one thing.
The consumer market talks in big terms; 1080p, Full HD 1080 or what not. But the Professional market

speaks in technical terms.

the "p" is for progressive
the "i" is for interlaced

1080 24p = 1080 lines of resolution of progressive content at 24 FRAMES per second

1080 60i (your usual HD camcorder) = 1080 lines of resolution of interlaced content at 60 FIELDS per

second

Get it? (yup, 24p equals progressive, but not neccessarily 1080 lines of resolution)

::::::::::::::::::::::

What if I see:
1080 24i
or
1080 60p

If you see 1080 24i, well, please tell me where cause it doesn't exist! Having only 24 fields per second

for interlaced content effectively means a 12 frames per second movie, which is far from smooth.

Now if you see 1080 60p, your in luck because you found a more or less decent Slow Motion HD Camcorder.

::::::::::::::::::::::

Now, the other thing is HDV. Formats are quite the important thing.
First, HDV is not 1920x1080 (i or p). It is in effect 1440x1080 60i.

But wait, the final content is in widescreen 16:9, 1440x1080 isn't 16:9?
Well, that is where the secret of the pixel aspect ratio relies.

As an aspect ratio defines the ratio of the width by the height, the pixel ratio makes so that you can

modify the pixels to being something else than square! Yes, this means even though the image is displayed

in an area of 1920x1080 square pixels, it really is just 1440 pixels of width, streched to provide the

full image.

The same has been made for DVDs displaying 16:9. TVs never had the ability to display 854x480 pixels.
Instead, they take the standard NTSC, which is 720x480, and stretch it (stretch the pixel ratio) to fit a

16:9 ratio TV screen ratio. Oh and, by the way, NTSC is also a streched pixel ratio format, it's square

pixel equivalent is 640x480, which you may recall from Computer resolutions.

So, the 1440x1080 resolution applies to all HDV camcorders and most HD TVs that don't do 1080p.
So why does no HDV camcorders do Full 1080 24p? Because the HDV format simply doesn't support it.

Now, some TVs and camcorders don't do 1080p but do what they call Full HD 1080. This "Full HD" thing

means that the resolution is a full 1920x1080 pixels.

Notice how all the Full HD 1080 camcorders from Sony don't use HDV? Well, you now know why. The format

doesn't support Full HD 1080. This is why those camcorders use Memory Cards or Hard Disk Drives to record

movies.

::::::::::::::::::::::

So how can I verify what my Camcorder does?

First thing to look for is Full HD 1080.
Next thing to look for is the little spec called 24p. If you have a HD camcorder and that 24p is written

somewhere on it, it means it does progressive scan.

I also hope you understand how complicated it really is to explain all this and how it would be a mess

for companies to explain to consumers that there really is about 40 different formats of High Definition

and that their own HD Camcorder probably does about 8 of them! (no, just kidding, but really, we didn't

even go over the 720 thing, the different regions in the world and the different ways to do

interlaced...nightmare)

Hope I didn't miss anything.

The Canon HV20 is one of them. Per Canon, it has the following modes:

1080/60i, 1080/24P, 1080/30F, 1080/24F

The XH A1 supports 1080/24f which is reported to be virtually identical to 24p.

It would also be a good idea to avoid replying to an old, old thread.

"Using 1080i video with 24p has no effect because you can't progressive-"ize" a non-progressive resolution"

ummmmmm.....

may want to go back and read the Wiki stuff on "3:2 pulldown" - because that's what the NLE (non-linear editing) software does - assuming the camera has embedded the pull down coding..

it is recorded in interlaced format (say, 60i) - but then it is converted to progressive (24p or whatever) by way of the frame pull down algorithm (there is also an advanced pull down used by Panasonic "2:3:3:2") - which is automatic if the NLE software detects that the pulldown coding was embedded in the signal on the tape -

for a more advanced discussion, on progressive recording pull down conversion see:
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording

with regard to storage on hard drive (e.g. computer) - some producers do record directly to their laptop computer - but they are actually capturing to their NLE software which is on the laptop - this avoids the need to log and capture the video from the tape to the hard drive for editing..(a very time consuming task)

if you want to capture to disk in digital format - Firestore makes several dedicated video capture drives that do exactly that - with the codec of your choice - but your camcorder needs to have a DV-out Firewire jack -
http://www.focusinfo.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=150

I gather that most who participated in the prior thread were not video producers...

I would suggest to all who are looking at consumer HD that they hold off for now - too many conflicting standards - wait until the HD formats begin to settle out - you don't want to buy a soon-to-be obsolete HD format and camcorder...

So there is no true answer yet. I am looking for a 1080p camera for my 52xbr3. Recommendations?

This just came out this month. From what I can tell it is the only consumer camcorder that shoots in 1080p.

On top of that it only weighs 311 grams (11 ounces)

Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-HD1010-Definition-Camcorder-Optical/dp/B001AO10YU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1215301333&sr=1-1

I also double-checked by visiting Sanyo's website, and yes it really does shoot 1080p 30fps

Looks like Sanyo beat Canon, Sony, etc to be the first true 1080p camcorder on the market, and yet it was released without fanfare. Maybe because they can only produce 10,000 of them a month, they don't want to hype it up to much..?

Only 1 left on Amazon...

for file storage. Apologies, but I would not spend my hard earned $ on this...

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9746777-1.html?tag=blog.10

I just have not bought into LOTS of compression as the first step of video capture. Downstream, perhaps.

I also don't agree with having to buy a BluRay Burner (and a BluRay DVD player) in order to watch high definition video that I have edited. Though just connecting my computer to my HDTV or using an AppleTV unit works fine. I can also connect my camcorder (because I can export the finished project from the computer to the camcorder - which one cannot do with HDD, flash or DVD based camcorders.

I guess things are finally starting to catch up, but I'll stick with DV/HDV format at capture for now. If it is good enough for the big boys
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=172
http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/cat_camcorders.asp
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/category.jsp?productId=PRO1.1
it is good enough for me. I expect that as long as the manufacturers do not exploit its full potential, it will continue to be merely a marketing sale.

You will find only one Panasonic camcorder that is categorized incorrectly as "pro" gear using AVCHD and I've never seen a pro use it...

If it looks good to you, then it is good enough - that is all that matters.

Good luck!