Are there any 1080p camcorders out now?
by maxpowers_37 - 1/22/07 7:55 AM
I saw one report on cnet about a new 1080i camcorder, but I didn't see any info on 1080p camcorders. Can we expect consumer level ones that are small anytime soon?
by: maxpowers_37 January 22, 2007 7:55 AM PST
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The only 1080p camcorder that comes close
to "consumer"... darn it, I can't call it that with a straight face... and I can't quite call it "prosumer", either... anyway, the Panasonic AGHVX200 says it does 1080p...
There are lots of 1080i camcorders...
Those aren't exactly consumer
Wow, that's a just a tad too big and expensive. I want one that is the size of normal consumer camcorder. I guess I have to keep waiting.
The Canon HV20 is probably an excellent 1080p Camcorder
The Canon HV20 is probably an excellent 1080p Camcorder.
I have just noticed the following website:-
(NT) The HV20 is NOT a 1080p camcorder, it's 1080i...
by whizkid454 - 2/12/07 12:37 PM
In Reply to: The Canon HV20 is probably an excellent 1080p Camcorder by jaybme82
It most certainly is a 1080p camera.
by Kiddpeat - 2/12/07 5:43 PM
In Reply to: (NT) The HV20 is NOT a 1080p camcorder, it's 1080i... by whizkid454
It has a 24p mode. A quick Google search finds lots of hits on this.
24P is NOT 1080p...
Those are two completely different things. 1080p is horizontal lines of resolution. 24p is frames per second. When both have p (progressive) frame rate, it reduces motion blur. 1080i uses interlacing which has nothing to do with 24p therefore does not help the picture much at all.
Please read and be informed:
The HV20 IS 1080p. Here's one of about 90,000 web sites
which say so;
You don't have to rely on those big budget Hollywood studios to get your 1080p fix, because you can make high-resolution videos of your own with the all-new Canon HV20 HD camcorder. Equipped with a genuine Canon CMOS image sensor, this camcorder will do the whole 1080p thing, as well as take stills at a 3 megapixel resolution, get in close with the 10x optical zoom, and even "give home movies the look and feel of film" thanks to the 24p Cinematic Mode. Naturally, with all that zoom, this cam also comes with Super Range Optical Image Stabilization too.
Features include a 10x optical zoom lens with three preset zoom speeds for smooth operation, 2.96 megapixel CMOS image sensor, DIGIC DV II image processor, full 1080p capture, and 24p Cinema mode.
Perhaps you know more about it than all these other folks?
Not looking far enough my friend...
by whizkid454 - 2/13/07 1:13 PM
In Reply to: The HV20 IS 1080p. Here's one of about 90,000 web sites by Kiddpeat
It is true that it CAPTURES 1080p video at 24p, but does it record to the tape that way??? NO!! People who know the limits of HDV would have said something by now.
Please read and once again be informed:
Hint: Pay close attention to the "Resolution and Aspect Ratio" section and closely read the first line.
So you are true in one aspect, but is the end result what you say it is? I'm afraid not.
You missed the HDMI output that the camera can produce.
It looks to me that the world is not seeing things the way you are seeing them. Check this from Wikipedia;
Sony released the HDR-FX7, HDR-FX7E, HVR-V1U, and the HVR-V1E, marking the world's first full 1080p camcorders in a small format, with both 24p and 30p (only 25p on the HVR-V1E) features on the camcorder (except for the HDR-FX7 and HDR-FX7E).
Then explain to me again about 24p.
So I guess...
by whizkid454 - 2/13/07 1:42 PM
In Reply to: You missed the HDMI output that the camera can produce. by Kiddpeat
I'll just carry around a portable generator in which I can power my expensive 1080p HDTV so I can plug my 1080p camcorder into the HDMI port so I can view 1080p footage on my TV instead of sending it as 1080i to tape where I could view it later as 1080i on a not-as-expensive 1080i HDTV. So how do you expect to capture the video since HDV is only capable of recording 1080i video?
The point you are missing is that it is capable of SEEING 1080p video but can only PROCESS 1080i video using a progressive frame rate. Think of it this way. 24p has only a positive effect when it is used in conjunction with a resolution that is capable of utilizing it (i.e. 1080p). Using 1080i video with 24p has no effect because you can't progressive-"ize" a non-progressive resolution. Using 1080p video with a 30i or 60i frame rate has no effect because you can't utilize the progressive ability in the resolution with the interlaced ability of 30i and 60i.
To the original poster: THERE IS NO CONSUMER 1080P CAMCORDER THAT WILL RECORD TRUE 1080P VIDEO @ A 24P FRAME RATE ONTO A HDV TAPE AS OF NOW. PERIOD.
So, there are camcorders with 1080p capability, but they are
totally unusable in that mode? Tell me again Whiz what the Sony camcorders certified by Wikipedia as 1080p camcorders are recording on. Remember this?
In 2006, Sony released the HDR-FX7, HDR-FX7E, HVR-V1U, and the HVR-V1E, marking the world's first full 1080p camcorders in a small format, with both 24p and 30p (only 25p on the HVR-V1E) features on the camcorder (except for the HDR-FX7 and HDR-FX7E).
Do you really think Sony put the capability in the camera with the intention that you could only use it in the vicinity of a TV? Does the term 'computer' ring any bells?
So in other words...
by whizkid454 - 2/14/07 1:22 PM
In Reply to: So, there are camcorders with 1080p capability, but they are by Kiddpeat
Lets get this straight... Do you accept that HDV tape cannot record video as 1080p at 24p?
If so, are you saying that people should carry there laptops with them wherever they go?
If not, you should go back to square one where it was proven that HDV tape cannot record 1080p at 24p.
It seems like you're saying, if you have a computer, you can feed it directly to the computer since the miniDV tape(HDV) can't record in 1080p. So I should be carrying around my laptop when I shoot? Does every laptop really have an HDMI port because regular Firewire is not fast enough to transfer HDV in real time? Does everyone have a laptop? NO.
To sum up this argument, please read my previous post's last line.
by Kiddpeat - 2/14/07 6:11 PM
In Reply to: So, there are camcorders with 1080p capability, but they are by Kiddpeat
Whiz, you are seriously objecting to carrying a laptop if you want to get 1080p video? Get serious! Lots of people send a camcorder's output to a laptop when they are doing serious recording. It's a way of eliminating tape dropouts. In fact, one of my camcorders SHIPS with the software needed to that.
You don't want to carry the laptop? Use tape.
That's the end of my comments in this thread.
Actually you can get 1080p out of the Canon HV20
This is the story from what I understand about the HV20. The HV20 captures actual 1920x1080 footage using its new CMOS sensor (i or p I am not sure). However, that image is processed for storage in an interlaced format at 1440 x 1080 which is the HDV and Firewire specification. Meaning that if you use Firewire (you know the biggest thing to happen to video 10 years ago)then the video will be 1440x1080 interlaced.
However, the processor in the HV20 will upscale the stored video from tape and if you bypass the tape alltogether, using the HDMI port then the video will be 1920x1080 out. The Black Magic Design HDMI card will capture the full 1920x1080 video and it comes with software (I have the card but I dont have an HDMI camcorder since I bought the HV10 when it first came out which does not have HDMI so I have yet to test the Black Magic card) and the Black Magic software, I think, also allows you to capture the 1920x1080 video into editable JPEG which is by nature a progressive medium. In otherwords, you bring it in by HDMI and then edit it frame by frame on the NLE timeline. This is as close as you can get at this price range to the 47,000.00 Panasonic true 1080p camcorder for "film" work.
In my opinion it is not the framerate that is the real issue in doing "film" work but rather Depth of View which is created by a camera lens. The true give away between amature video and film is the depth of view. Depth of view is what causes a Kansas Field of Wheat to be blurred out as focus is made on Dorthy walking down a yellow brick road next to the field of wheat. This can only be had by a lens and apperture settings which no prosumer camcorder provides except for the removeable lens JVC and Canon (both of which max out at I think 720p or something but certainly not Full HD 1920x1080). There are devices that will allow you to attach a 35mm photo lens to a camcorder but the device itself runs over a thousand bucks. However, if you do spring for it, there are a lot of excellent manual camera lens being unloaded now days for pennies on the original price since everyone has shifted to digital cameras and auto focus, etc.
Since Sony is largely responsible for the HDMI format, I am sure they are just biding time before they provide a real 1080p camcorder solution that shoots progressive frames versus interlaced. But since people are still caught up in the millions being spent on HDV equipment Sony is also caught between a rock and a hard place and must continue to support HDV tape. Panasonic has made a go of expensive P2 drives which does not rely on the HDV Mpeg2 spec of 1440x1080 but the cards are expensive. Keep in mind if you do use the HDMI Black Magic card, you need to have lots of disc space. Which is ok because only great stuff in = zero garbarge out. You can always work with good material to compress it into the format of choice but you cant take garbage in and expect to get great material out of it.
I suspect soon that someone at one of these camera companies will wake up and read this article and provide what everyone is really clamoring for. Which is this:
* A camera for less than $2300.00
* A camera that will accept a lens with a Depth of View (interchangeble lens mount). This would actually DROP the cost of the camera but who is going to sell a prosumer camcorder without a lens? It is the users fault for being so stupid that they force crap on to the market which includes 40000 billion optical zoom and other marketing nonsense.
* A camera that does NOT use the HDV spec (1440x1080)
* A camera that does use HDMI out (need less to say we could use a computer manufacturer with the brains to include HDMI in but that would be asking for way too much- so we can settle for the Black Magic card at 349.00).
* Since HDV tape stores at 1440x1080 then the camera will have to be tapeless with a hard drive of somekind.
That is what we freakin want ok Canon, Panasonic, JVC and Sony?
They already have the CMOS or CCD to capture 1920x1080 but these fools actually have to compress the freakin image to keep pace with last decade's HDV model. Now that is Smart isn't it? Lets keep "pace" with last decade's technology.
Its NOT real 1080p, its less than perfect but look
There is a new Panasonic HDC-HS9 495-650 + a flash only version, This camcorder is the only real deal on recording 1080p for less than a grand check it out, I bought a canon hf100 last night (same workings as hv20/30 etc) and found indoor and outdoor hd in full settings maxed to be completely un-usable....Motion Blur + More motion blur in highest mode, same in 25p, Just sent back and now got panasonic, not really been a fan of their cams, but i must say that extra P in the 1080 make a LOT of difference, and its perfect in sports mode for fast objects too.
This really is High Def 1080p Recording camcorder. Darren
@ Darren B.
This discussion is a year old. There are many true 1080p camcorders out on the market since a year ago.
Ok, let me inform you of how it really works.
First off, 24p let alone doesn't mean anything. It could be any form of 24 progressive frames per second.
Now, 60i let alone doesn't mean anything. It could be any form of 60 interlaced fields per second.
Catch my drift?
To acheive an apparent image, interlaced content usually runs in 60i or 50i, or 50 to 60 fields per
second if you prefer.
Ok, so some will say, wow, I can do slow motion with that because the human eye only needs about ~30
frames per second for a smooth image, that means half the normal speed slow motion.
But wait, because the content is interlaced, we speek in fields, not frames. 60i content needs 2 fields
to acheive one frame, so it really is only 30 frames per second. So no slow motion
But, this explains one thing.
The consumer market talks in big terms; 1080p, Full HD 1080 or what not. But the Professional market
speaks in technical terms.
the "p" is for progressive
the "i" is for interlaced
1080 24p = 1080 lines of resolution of progressive content at 24 FRAMES per second
1080 60i (your usual HD camcorder) = 1080 lines of resolution of interlaced content at 60 FIELDS per
Get it? (yup, 24p equals progressive, but not neccessarily 1080 lines of resolution)
What if I see:
If you see 1080 24i, well, please tell me where cause it doesn't exist! Having only 24 fields per second
for interlaced content effectively means a 12 frames per second movie, which is far from smooth.
Now if you see 1080 60p, your in luck because you found a more or less decent Slow Motion HD Camcorder.
Now, the other thing is HDV. Formats are quite the important thing.
First, HDV is not 1920x1080 (i or p). It is in effect 1440x1080 60i.
But wait, the final content is in widescreen 16:9, 1440x1080 isn't 16:9?
Well, that is where the secret of the pixel aspect ratio relies.
As an aspect ratio defines the ratio of the width by the height, the pixel ratio makes so that you can
modify the pixels to being something else than square! Yes, this means even though the image is displayed
in an area of 1920x1080 square pixels, it really is just 1440 pixels of width, streched to provide the
The same has been made for DVDs displaying 16:9. TVs never had the ability to display 854x480 pixels.
Instead, they take the standard NTSC, which is 720x480, and stretch it (stretch the pixel ratio) to fit a
16:9 ratio TV screen ratio. Oh and, by the way, NTSC is also a streched pixel ratio format, it's square
pixel equivalent is 640x480, which you may recall from Computer resolutions.
So, the 1440x1080 resolution applies to all HDV camcorders and most HD TVs that don't do 1080p.
So why does no HDV camcorders do Full 1080 24p? Because the HDV format simply doesn't support it.
Now, some TVs and camcorders don't do 1080p but do what they call Full HD 1080. This "Full HD" thing
means that the resolution is a full 1920x1080 pixels.
Notice how all the Full HD 1080 camcorders from Sony don't use HDV? Well, you now know why. The format
doesn't support Full HD 1080. This is why those camcorders use Memory Cards or Hard Disk Drives to record
So how can I verify what my Camcorder does?
First thing to look for is Full HD 1080.
Next thing to look for is the little spec called 24p. If you have a HD camcorder and that 24p is written
somewhere on it, it means it does progressive scan.
I also hope you understand how complicated it really is to explain all this and how it would be a mess
for companies to explain to consumers that there really is about 40 different formats of High Definition
and that their own HD Camcorder probably does about 8 of them! (no, just kidding, but really, we didn't
even go over the 720 thing, the different regions in the world and the different ways to do
Hope I didn't miss anything.
EDTVs support 854x480 resolution.
But I have no knowledge of Cameras or Medias that support such a resolution. (for the exception of computers)
There are several cameras that do 'Full 1080 24p'.
The Canon HV20 is one of them. Per Canon, it has the following modes:
1080/60i, 1080/24P, 1080/30F, 1080/24F
The XH A1 supports 1080/24f which is reported to be virtually identical to 24p.
It would also be a good idea to avoid replying to an old, old thread.
HD1010 1080p video footage - since you asked
Have you seen footage of the HD1010 at full 1080p? I have and it looks good to me. Here is a link to download full 1080p footage. Keep in mind you need your monitor to be able to support the resolution. http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080618/fshq.mp4
That link was taken from this page: (translated from Japanese)
"I have difficulty bridging the gap between;
video for the web
a 50" Plasma 1080p monitor
The Sanyo might look OK on the web. It definitely would not look very good on a 50" Plasma 1080p monitor."
you can't progressive-"ize" a non-progressive resolution
"Using 1080i video with 24p has no effect because you can't progressive-"ize" a non-progressive resolution"
may want to go back and read the Wiki stuff on "3:2 pulldown" - because that's what the NLE (non-linear editing) software does - assuming the camera has embedded the pull down coding..
it is recorded in interlaced format (say, 60i) - but then it is converted to progressive (24p or whatever) by way of the frame pull down algorithm (there is also an advanced pull down used by Panasonic "2:3:3:2") - which is automatic if the NLE software detects that the pulldown coding was embedded in the signal on the tape -
for a more advanced discussion, on progressive recording pull down conversion see:
with regard to storage on hard drive (e.g. computer) - some producers do record directly to their laptop computer - but they are actually capturing to their NLE software which is on the laptop - this avoids the need to log and capture the video from the tape to the hard drive for editing..(a very time consuming task)
if you want to capture to disk in digital format - Firestore makes several dedicated video capture drives that do exactly that - with the codec of your choice - but your camcorder needs to have a DV-out Firewire jack -
I gather that most who participated in the prior thread were not video producers...
I would suggest to all who are looking at consumer HD that they hold off for now - too many conflicting standards - wait until the HD formats begin to settle out - you don't want to buy a soon-to-be obsolete HD format and camcorder...
My guess is that no one in this thread has any real video
by Kiddpeat - 2/18/07 3:57 PM
production experience. I'm, perhaps, aimed in that direction, but I'm a long way from being there.
The problem with forums like these is that everyone wants to be an expert or a guru. It makes it real tough to sort out the wheat from the chafe.
ANy more guidance?
by miamikindaguy - 12/12/07 8:11 PM
In Reply to: My guess is that no one in this thread has any real video by Kiddpeat
So there is no true answer yet. I am looking for a 1080p camera for my 52xbr3. Recommendations?
by R. Proffitt - 12/12/07 8:16 PM
While my kid is in "film school" I did help him as best I could.
I will share that I set him up with miniDV for the best quality as well as picking a camcorder that had larger than your usual lens. That helped a lot. The external mic is also standard fare.
When they did their "films" I lent out a second camcorder to give them another angle to use in the video editing session. It really added a touch of professionalism you don't see otherwise.
-> As of today we haven't taken the plunge to HD camcorders but the existing gear is fine so far.
Sanyo HD1010 - a consumer camcorder that shoots 1080p
This just came out this month. From what I can tell it is the only consumer camcorder that shoots in 1080p.
On top of that it only weighs 311 grams (11 ounces)
Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-HD1010-Definition-Camcorder-Optical/dp/B001AO10YU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1215301333&sr=1-1
I also double-checked by visiting Sanyo's website, and yes it really does shoot 1080p 30fps
Looks like Sanyo beat Canon, Sony, etc to be the first true 1080p camcorder on the market, and yet it was released without fanfare. Maybe because they can only produce 10,000 of them a month, they don't want to hype it up to much..?
Only 1 left on Amazon...
That's bad. Real bad.
by R. Proffitt - 7/5/08 6:45 PM
In Reply to: Sanyo HD1010 - a consumer camcorder that shoots 1080p by michaelspire1
Never buy the last one on the shelf.
Um... it relies on AVCHD compression
by boya84 - 7/5/08 8:43 PM
In Reply to: Sanyo HD1010 - a consumer camcorder that shoots 1080p by michaelspire1
for file storage. Apologies, but I would not spend my hard earned $ on this...
What's wrong with AVCHD?
Isn't AVCHD just another version of mp4?
The video samples I downloaded from this look good to me...
I just have not bought into LOTS of compression as the first step of video capture. Downstream, perhaps.
I also don't agree with having to buy a BluRay Burner (and a BluRay DVD player) in order to watch high definition video that I have edited. Though just connecting my computer to my HDTV or using an AppleTV unit works fine. I can also connect my camcorder (because I can export the finished project from the computer to the camcorder - which one cannot do with HDD, flash or DVD based camcorders.
I guess things are finally starting to catch up, but I'll stick with DV/HDV format at capture for now. If it is good enough for the big boys
it is good enough for me. I expect that as long as the manufacturers do not exploit its full potential, it will continue to be merely a marketing sale.
You will find only one Panasonic camcorder that is categorized incorrectly as "pro" gear using AVCHD and I've never seen a pro use it...
If it looks good to you, then it is good enough - that is all that matters.