Desktops forum: Buying a new PC, will I regret the integrated graphics card later?

Hi,
I have purchased many computers over the years. Pc's for me mac for my kidz that insist that they have to have it.

I have had several HP's and they were great. Hp printers too they were run into the ground used way beyond the spec'd life.

Check out ZT systems. You can't beat the price, I can't build it for the same cost. I have my second one, an I7 860. Not the fastest around but up there and 999.00 with a video card, expandable, has a large enough power supply to add stuff, no bloatware. Costco has it.
Don

My main computer, that I use daily for heavy multitasking work, gaming, watching movies, and more, is not what you'd expect. I use a $249 Black Friday El Cheapo Acer laptop sitting in my desk's keyboard tray. I then have an external keyboard, mouse, speakers, webcam, headset, camera dock, USB hub, and a 23.6" HD LCD monitor. I am just as productive on this computer as my wife is with a Core i7-920 desktop housing an ATI HD4890 video card.

Sure I can't play GTA IV on my setup (why do you think I got her a 4890 card?) but I can do everything else. I play GTA San Andreas for example. Need For Speed games up through and including Carbon run nice and smooth at high resolution. I can play the first Far Cry. I can play Left For Dead 1 and 2. It's not a gaming powerhouse but it's VERY solid.

The graphics set in my laptop is the latest integrated Intel HD graphics. It's standard with most cheap laptops and desktops these days. This is called the 4500MHD (mobile version, HD) and it's awesome. I run my monitor at 1920x1080 all the time. I don't make it smaller for games if I can help it (GTA:SA tops out at 1440x900 for playable fps). I can have two broswer windows open side by side or say, a Word file and an Excel file. The computer doesn't slow down appreciably even with multiple programs running.

I'm looking at the Costco El Cheapo Windows 7 HP PCs now. If you're looking at the same Celeron 450 box I am, pass on it. Get something with a dual core processor. In fact if you must buy from Costco and you must have HP, go for the $699 p6570t model with the Core i3-540 processor. That will have more power than you need for quite awhile and it has the desktop version of my Intel HD graphics set. The $499 model with the Celeron 450 single-core chip will frustrate you beyond belief.

The first thing I did with this $249 laptop was remove the Celeron 900 (mobile version of the Celeron 450) and replace it with a Pentium Dual-Core T4300 chip. That and a 3rd GB of memory have really awakened this laptop. I still get about 2 hours on battery but I hardly ever have it NOT plugged in. If you get the Celeron model, you will be disappointed. At LEAST get something with a dual-core Pentium, like the $599 model with the Pentium E5400 processor. The other $499 computers showing at Costco have 6150SE or HD4200 graphics. Both of those will also disappoint you. Stick to the Intel HD for now or be prepared to buy a video card much sooner.

The integrated graphic card, no matter how much memory it can share from your RAM, is still something lackluster. It may play HD video, but then not so smoothly with dropping frames from time to time and with high CPU usage. Gaming is the last thing you would want to do on those PCs. The latest Intel integrated grpahic can't even handle Need For Speed Underground 2 (a game released in 2004) with medium detail setting and 1280X960. As MS Office had evolved to more graphic dependent, your PC may not be able to run the coming Office 2010 smoothly. So, think twice. Even an entry level graphic card will help a lot, say GT210, 9400GT etc.

The answer to this question is quite simple. First ask yourself this question are you a gamer? if the answer is yes then an integrated graphics card will simply not do. If the answer is no then integrated graphics will be fine. As for the best card my vote is Nvidia they simply have better drivers.

I made a similar mistake years ago with a Dell Dimension 2350 - Integrated graphics only. At the time I didn't understand what that meant, and some games would not work. However the PC is still in use, the story is blogged here:

http://mr-ives.blogspot.com/search/label/PCI

Buying a new PC, or motherboard, always raises many questions. If the PC or motherboard you are wanting already has an integrated graphics feature, fear not. For most applications other than gaming or high-end business graphics use, an integrated solution is usually perfectly adequate.

However, if you subsequently decide it's not quite up to the job, you can fit a separate graphics card and turn off the integrated graphics from within the BIOS. Read the mobo manual to see how to access that (it varies between makers and versions) and then how to turn off the integrated graphics feature. Even mobos with integrated graphics provide either an AGP or PCI-Express slot for the new card.

Then you're good to go with your new graphics card on a reboot.

Hope that clears up some of the confusing posts.

I purchased a Sony with an Intel I-3 in February that had the 256MB video card. This week I took delivery of a Lenovo with the Intel I-7 and a 1GB video card. There was a $550 price difference. Instead of worrying about how much you're getting, I'd reconsider the brand of choice first. Look up how many people are complaining about this problem or that because they shopped with dollar amount/price being their first concern. You'll always get burned in the end when that's your biggest concern. Guess what, quality still counts and when the price is to good to beat, it might be just because that's the only way that brand can sell them in the first place. Only you can decide if you think quality is worth more. I firmly believe in it.

The 256MB card is just fine for normal Internet type applications and I'm having nothing but pure joy with it, but when I found a new machine just 4 months later that had 4 times the amount, I jumped at it. Hold off till you can get a bit higher end machine and you'll always get longer use out of it in the end. Another consideration is weight. The reason I got the Sony was because it only weighs 4 1/2 pounds so I can carry it anywhere, but my desktop replacement is a lot more machine that I'll pretty much leave set up and leave it alone. No machine does it all. Instead ask yourself how you're going to use it the most, and then decide how much you care about how long it will last without it breaking down or wearing out. While I normally don't get this stupid with my money, I know that both machines I've purchased this year will still be meeting 90% of all my needs in 3 years and in all likelihood still be decent machines. To me the higher up front costs are worth the longer usage I'll get out of them overall. Trust me, there are decent values on higher quality machines out there so this time I'd either pay a bit more or hold off till I could afford it.

First of all, I recommend considering a different computer altogether. HP computers have a long and sad history of poor tech support, underpowered components and poor performance. I would recommend looking at better computers like Dell, Acer or even Gateway (which is not a lot better than HP/Compaq but at least has decent customer service).

I also recommend not buying computers from deep discount places like Costco. With a few exceptions, the people who work in those places know nothing about computers and cannot answer your questions. Also, they do not have any good computer repair nor maintenance services. I'd recommend getting your computer from places like Best Buy, Frys or even better yet, a shop that sells nothing but computers. Check to see if your town has any specialty shops that only sell computers. The more specialized a shop is, the better their service and support after the sale tends to be. Sure it may cost a bit more at the outset, but at least you'll have some support for your computer after the sale. Getting a computer is kind of like getting a car, any after the sale customer service the place you get it from offers is very important because, trust me, you will have issues with any computer you get sooner or later just like we do with the cars we buy.

Really, the kind of graphics card that any desktop computer comes with is irrelevant because they are almost always way underpowered for playing video games. You have to get one of those specialty brand towers from companies like Alienware or IBuyPower to get a good "out of the box" gaming experience.

What does matter when buying a computer (as far as graphics goes) is how many expansion card slots the computer's motherboard comes with and what kind they are. Look for computers with at least one PCI Express (aka PCIE) slot. That is where you'll put your more powerful graphics card that you'll buy separately.

What also matters when getting a computer that will run a good video card is cooling. Find a computer with the largest vents in the front of the case that you can. If you can find one that also has a vent in the side and even better, on the top of the case that is even better. If there are no fans in these vents, that is okay because it is easy to install fans in those vents later. Good performing video cards get hotter than weak cards and need good ventilation to perform properly.

When you get your separate video card, connect your computer to the internet and download the newest drivers for whatever video card you buy separately. Usually, you can do a search for the name of the graphics chip maker (usually either ATI or Nvidia). If you get an ATI card, you'll end up on the AMD website since they are the parent company of ATI now. Do a search within that website for the model of video card you bought and download but do not install the drivers for it yet. Just save the file folder to your desktop or downloads folder so you can find it again.

Before you install the drivers, click on Start then Control Panel then Device Manager. Scroll down the list of devices until you find the integrated video card. right click on the name of the card and click on "disable". Once you have the integrated graphics card disabled, shut down the computer completely and unplug it.

Put on an antistatic wrist strap (most computer stores sell them for around $15 or less. They keep you from frying your new computer with static shock and are well worth getting) before you open up your computer. Set it down on a flat, hard, clean surface like a table. Open up the box that the separate video card came in and remove the card from the package. Do NOT touch the gold-like connectors on the bottom of the card as oils from your skin can damage them. Also avoid putting any pressure on the cooling fan (if the card has one)as you could damage the motor.

You'll probably have to remove a panel or two from the back of the computer tower so that the video ports are visible from the back of the tower (speaking of video ports, most of today's video cards come with DVI ports which are usually white and have slots running both vertically and horizontally. If your monitor is older than two or three years, it probably has a VGA plug on it (usually blue and with a bunch of round pins in it). If the card doesn't come with an adapter, you'll need a VGA to DVI adapter for older monitors.

When putting the video card into the computer, make sure there are no wires in the way of the slot before you push it down in there. Also check to see if the card requires additional power. There will be a port usually on the short side of the card opposite the side with the monitor ports where you'll plug this power cable into. If the power supply that came with the computer is powerful enough, it should have a cord for this port. If not, you'll need to buy a different power supply that has cords for video cards on it. Most of the power supplies that are 300 watts or more these days come with the needed cords. Install the more powerful power supply (if needed) first before you install the graphics card. Be sure to push the video card into the slot until it clicks (there is usually a lock of some kind to keep the card from wiggling loose on most motherboards these days). Also be sure to screw the card's metal retaining bracket to the case frame to help support it.

When you put the case's door back on (never run a computer with the case door off as it defeats the cooling system of the case and leads to overheating), plug in and restart the computer. When windows tries to reinstall the PC's integrated graphics card, click on "cancel". If you don't click on cancel in time, disable the integrated card again as described above. Now, find the driver you downloaded and install it. You'll probably have to restart the computer to finish the install.

Also, don't buy a desktop PC that is smaller than "mid tower" size. Avoid the ones that are thin and that lay on their longest side. Avoid the ones that are shorter than most of the other ones too. Those "space saving" form factors are really hard to find graphics cards for. They take the shorter cards which are usually PCI or even AGP rather than the faster PCI Express cards. I found this out the hard way by buying a Sony "micro tower" PC a few years ago. The case looked cool, but by being a few inches shorter than the typical mid tower size, I had to settle for getting an NVIDIA card that used an AGP slot. Those older tech cards are not as fast nor able to render graphics of today's games as well as those that use the PCI Express slot.

Another important thing to consider when buying a computer that you might play today's games on is even more overlooked than the included graphics: the power supply. Most PC makers skimp on parts as much as they can to make a bigger profit. One of the ways they do this is by putting the lowest power of power supply in the tower that they can get away with. If you are getting a video card separately from the PC (which anyone wanting to play anything more advanced than online browser games should do), then you'll need a higher wattage of powersupply than what your computer comes with. Most decent video cards require at least a 300 watt powersupply, but check the box of the video card you are thinking of getting to make sure. Considering all the other stuff your computer will be powering, I always up the wattage of a power supply that I include in a computer by two or three hundred watts over what the video card requires.

You mentioned thinking that 256 MB memory for a graphics card was "pretty hefty". It used to be, but not any more. Today's video games have such advanced graphics that you'll actually get fairly poor performance from a 256 MB card with most of them. I'd recommend getting a video card with at least 512 MB of DDR RAM. If you can afford it, go for one with 512 of DDR2 RAM as DDR2 is even faster than DDR.

Stay away from video cards made by anybody other than the actual graphics chip makers. Sure they are a bit cheaper, but there is usually a reason for that. The cards that are not made by either Nvidia or ATI do not seem to last as long and they tend to have poorer tech support and not as user friendly interfaces for their software. With graphics cards, you really do get what you pay for.

One of the best "bang for your buck" video cards on the market today is the NVidia GeForce 8700. It makes use of Direct X 10 and has all the processing power needed to run the latest games. Yet it is no longer the very newest card out there, making it more affordable than the newer cards like the Nvidia 9000 series.

Finally, no matter what computer you get, keep it clean. At least once a year (once a month if you have pets, smoke and/or are using the computer in a dusty environment) open up the case and blow out the dust, hair etc with canned air. You might even need to put on your anti-static wrist strap mentioned above and take a cotton swab (qtip) dipped in rubbing alcohol (never use any other liquid inside a computer)and wipe off some of the more stubborn stuff. You'll need to remove the front panel to really get all of the stuff out at least every other cleaning if you do it monthly. Computers draw in air from the front and blow it out the back to cool themselves. There is all kinds of dust, pollen, hair etc floating in the air. When this air gets sucked into the computer, that stuff settles out of the air and sticks to the parts inside the computer. Over time, the stuff builds up and insulates the parts, keeping them from cooling off properly. When computers act 'slower' than they used to and especially when they shut off for no apparent reason, it's very often due to the fact that the computer's parts are getting too hot. Your new computer will last longer and run faster if you keep it clean.

Just some tips from someone who has built several PCs and upgraded the graphics of hundreds of PCs.

I like to change out ram add ram, video cards, sound cards and this can't be done with an intergrated machine. For all of you who don't really know what intergrated means..everything is built into one unit and it's not meant to be tampered with and that is why a non-intergrated machine is best, if you can afford one. Intergraded computers are more reasonably priced and you get what you pay for.
Denise

First of all, check if the video/graphics chipset onto the mainboard of such HP machine has an integraded graphics processor with a fan hooked onto it and an FSB of at least 800Mhz(1600 or 2200Mhz preferable).

Second, make sure it comes with a minimum of 3-4Mb of RAM cards + that both cards are dual channel synchronized perfectly(both the same speed).

Third, the bad news is, too cheap lands you a complete dud of a machine. Especially via Hewlett-Packard U.S.A. or even Canada.

Hint: Good games will, need, a 512Mb video chipset with a really reliable graphics processor to back it up. Plus, having the graphics processor = Complete and undeniable dedication to video/graphics rendition of both video clips/movies and gaming. A 500$ machine through HP will land you a dud. Look somewhere else for much better.

Good Luck at choosing the next big upgrade!

AMD is coming up with its Fusion technology that combine CPU and GPU technology to create what we call APU (Acclelerated Processor Unit). AMD is the first to fuse graphics and central processing units in one single chip. Graphics will be much speedier because graphics will lockstep with central processor instead of relying on slower memory speed. Just check it out at www.amd.com for more information and which model that will comes with Fusion chips and where to buy them. Intel is dominant in integrated graphic market where graphics chips are soldered on motherboards to make it integrated and connected to whatever RAM modules you have be it DDR, DDR2, or DDR3. It is not as fast as AMD Fusion chips . YOu can still add graphics cards to AMD Fusion to boost graphics performance even further. I read that the Fusion chips will use ATI 42** circuitry which is pretty recent. AMD bought ATI Graphics in 2005 so to unite both technologies in one single CPU or so called APU. Integrated graphics is not found inside CPUs but in its own separate chip on the motherboard. AMD Fusion chips will not need any integrated graphics chips on the motherboard as graphics circuitry will be fused with central processing circuitry on the same clock. DDR3 memory is not as fast as central processing clock so that is why AMD Fusion chips promises to be very exciting for the masses with limited funds to buy the most bang for the buck! Learn all you can about the coming AMD Fusion chips just around the corner.

In the south, one doesn't want a PC that generates a lot of heat. I have a PC (new this year) with integrated graphics running on a 300 watt power supply. The PC heat factor in my office is noticeably reduced. The system is great for Office software, editing photos, watching Hulu.com or games that are not too demanding of video like Civilization IV. When you add a video card, you're adding 70 to 250 watts of power consumption. Something to think about

I would steer clear of anything that has a HP logo run runaway fast from that logo. I was suckered into getting one and have regreted evrything about it. I have the HP Pavilion slimline s3020n and cannot do most of the updates for windows vista premium home edition. Here's the fix for that though. Adding more memory, som my question to HP that has never been answered is if you know the problem exists then why not charge the small amount extra so no extra fix would be needed.
The customer support is average but stll is mainly self directed. Bottom line is look elsewhere for a slightly better unit without have to add on fixes later. that would drive up the after market price.
From David in Texas.

MOTHERBOARDS

TIPS FOR JUDGING QUALITY

Hardware Secrets Feb 12, 2010 Gabriel Torres is the editor-in-chief of Hardware Secrets, a US-based website about PC hardware

With more and more components being integrated inside the computer CPU, the motherboard doesnt affect the system performance as much as it used to just a few years ago. So what makes a given motherboard a good motherboard?

There are features, of course. The number of memory sockets, the number of expansion slots, the support for SLI and CrossFire configurations, the number of SATA ports, the presence of eSATA ports, the number of USB ports, the presence of digital audio outputs (SPDIF), RAID support, overclocking options and, especially right now, the presence of new technologies such as SATA-600 (a.k.a. SATA 6 G) and USB 3.0.

But if you are buying a motherboard and find two or more products with similar features, which one you should buy? One answer might be the one with the best quality. But how can you tell the quality of a motherboard?

There are a few small details on motherboards that reveal a lot about their overall quality.

The first one is the quality of the electrolytic capacitors that are used on the motherboard. Many years ago some manufacturers used low-cost capacitors that leaked after some time, leading the computer to behave erratically and even damage the motherboard. Since then, several manufacturers started using capacitors that are immune to such leakage. One of the best kind of capacitor uses polymer type, also known as solid. They are easy to spot: the look like small aluminum cans. Then the second best are the ones manufactured in Japan (brands include Nihon Chemi-Con, Rubycon, Sanyo, Matsushita/Panasonic, and Hitachi).

The second clue to quality is the kind of chokes (coils) used on the voltage regulator circuit (which is located close to the CPU socket). These chokes can use ferrite or iron in their core. Both are squared components measuring approximately 3/8 x 3/8 (1 cm x 1 cm), but ferrite chokes are closed while iron chokes are opened. So if you see a bunch of gray or black square components near the CPU socket without a coil inside of it showing up you are seeing a ferrite choke, otherwise you are facing an iron choke. Ferrite chokes are better than iron chokes.

Then we have the number of phases of the voltage regulator circuit (think of a phase as being like a piston in a car engine). The more phases the voltage regulator has, the better, because each transistor present on this circuit will work less, thus producing less heat. The less heat your motherboard produces, the better for its life-span and of course temperature inside the computer. A high number of phases also increases the motherboard efficiency, i.e. it consumes less energy.

But how can you tell the number of phases from a motherboard? By counting the number of chokes available: each choke is connected to one phase. However, current CPUs require several voltages to work, so the voltage regulator circuit will have separated phases for each voltage. For instance, on motherboards designed for CPUs with integrated memory controllers (all AMD CPUs and Core i3, Core i5 and Core i7 from Intel), the voltage regulator will produce two distinct voltages, one for the CPU core and another one for the memory controller. In this case the motherboard manufacturer may say that the voltage regulator circuit is, for example, a 6+2 design, meaning six phases for the CPU core and two phases for the integrated memory controller. Motherboards targeted to the new Intel CPUs with integrated video controller need to produce three different voltages, the third one being to the CPU integrated video processor, so manufacturers announce the voltage regulator circuit like 6+1+1.

So when comparing motherboards, you should buy the one with more phases.

Some manufacturers, however, use a higher switching frequency on their voltage regulator circuit, what makes one phase to be more efficient than several phases from competing products. Manufacturers that offer this kind of solution on their products advertise this very clearly on the product specs page.

MOTHERBOARDS - DO NOT HAVE ON BOARD GRAPHICS - BY Bill3

A very simple way of getting a good motherboard for a NOVICE, is stick to Asus and Gigabyte, ( others are good too ), who have very good reputations for quality, win many awards for excellence, and you can clearly see the evidence of this tutorial, when examining their boards. Of course, the more you pay the better you get.

My personal recommendation is never, never, never have on board graphics, because : -

1 Graphics are very highly sophisticated, expensive, and stressed section of a computer.
2 If on board graphics die, they can kill the motherboard too, so your in for a complete rebuild.
3 On board graphics only come on cheap motherboards.
4 On board graphics consume much expense in the construction, so both the motherboard itself, and the graphics, have to be made cheap and nasty.
5 With no graphics, manufacturers charge from nearly double for their motherboards, so this must really show that there is a whole lot more to a good motherboard.
6 Computers with separate graphics cards always have a much nicer picture for XP.
7 Computers with separate graphics cards always have a much nicer picture for games, and more of them will run on your computer.
8 With a separate graphics card, you can remove and upgrade it, to run a higher specification game.

However, if on board graphics die, you can put a graphics card in, and usually get the computer working again. Also, there are heaps of people, who just want a cheap, reasonable computer, and they run just fine with on board graphics, but not with the same performance as the separate graphics card computers.

If you have Windows and plan to use your pc for multi-media, Graphic cards are must. So, unlikely you'd regret.

On the other hand, if you plan to use Linux for OS, you may not require it (again depending you your requirement). Linux has it in inbuild.

Just my 2Cents

Cerine
http://www.asthmacureremedies.com