Desktops forum: Registry programs - Bad or good?

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-6142_102-0.html?messageID=3097831&tag=forums06;posts#3097831 notes a problem with that one.

For now, the consensus is that none are any good. Those 900 problems are likely little things and NOTHING that matters.
Bob

The subject line says it all. Registry cleaners are over-hyped and a poorly designed or written one can cause much more harm thn good. IF (and that's a big "if") you need to use one, stick with IOBit Advanced System Care (ASC), CCleaner, or Uniblue's Registry Booster. Ignore the scareware tactic of reporting vast numbers of registry errors. Although they may (or mayh not!) be technically correct, common "errors" such as missing cache files, are hardly a big deal.

The best advice is still to do your homework! There are a lot of bad registry cleaners - some of which are actually malware in disguise. This topic has been discussed at length here in the Cnet forums. Look up some of the previous discussions.

If you think you might need one because your computer is slowing down, your first step should be to use a good disk defrag utility. Simply being diligent about defragging your HDD on a regular schedule (i.e. at least once a month) is the best defense against your machine slowing down.

Personally, I have one (ASC), but only for specific maintenance problems. More importantly, I have the technical knowledge to review what it says it's going to do and decide what I want it to let it do. IOW, if you're unfamiliar with, or have never used REGEDIT, you might want to think twice before investing in a registry cleaner.

Of course(I just have to say this), the very best defense is to not run Windows at all. Neither Linux (free) or Mac OS (expensive) are subject to the problems of Windows. They're more secure (and therefore less of a target for malware writers), don't need defragging, and have NO registry!

On the whole, registry cleaners range from indifferent to very, very bad. If you have a really serious problem, the suggestion of a clean OS install is a good one. But what about afterward? I found a solution that works for me here on C-net downloads; Revo Uninstaller.

Like one of the other responders, I tend to try out a lot of programs, which led to my having to do a clean OS install. Now, when I'm through with an unsatisfactory program, or one which I no longer need, I use Revo Uninstaller to remove the program. In it's extended removal mode, it gets rid of every trace of the removed program. Registey, extra files, directories, everything goes! The best way to avoid registry problems is to keep the registry clean and Revo Uninstaller does everything it claims and the price is definitely right!

I HAVE TRIED THE CHEAP AND THE EXPENSIVE REGISTRY CLEANERS, BUT MOST OF THEM DO NOT DO WHAT IT SAYS ON THE TIN. IOBIT FREE WARE IS EXCELLENT, BUT THEIR PAID FOR ONES ARE GREAT. THEY RUN IN THE BACKGROUND WITH VERY LITTLE NOTICE, THEIR SMART DEFRAG IS FANTASTIC, THEIR SMART RAM BOOSTER & CLEANER IS TOO, THE ADVANCED SYSTEM CARE IS A JOY TO BEHOLD AFTER TRYING SO MANY IT WAS A PLEASURE TO LET THESE RUN IN THE BACK GROUND. THEN I DOWNLOADED NERO 9, DISASTER STRUCK, BOTH MY BURNERS STOPPED WORKING WITH ERROR CODE 39. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT IT WAS, BUT SOON FOUND OUT THAT THE DRIVERS WHILST STILL THERE COULD NOT START. I TRIED INSTALLING UPDATED DRIVERS, UP DATING ALL MY SOFTWARE, AND SO MANY PROGS THAT SAID THEY COULD REPAIR ERROR CODE 39. MOST OF WHICH I HAD ALREADY.ERROR EXPERT IS THE BEES KNEES AND WORKED FIRST TIME, BE CAREFUL WITH IT THOUGH ( IT DOES CREATE A RESTORE POINT SO IT CAN BE TAKEN BACK EASILY.)I AM RUNNING A TIME COMP OF 6 YEAR VINTAGE WITH XP HOME,XP OFFICE PROFESSIONAL, 2 GIG MEMORY 80GIG H/DRIVE WITH 660 GIG PLUG INS. JUST STARTING TO DELETE ALL THE HUNDREDS OF PROGS THAT HAVEN'T USED FOR AGES ALL BECAUSE ERROR EXPERT TOLD ME TO & IT WAS RIGHT, WORKING FAST NOW WITH NO CRASHES OR SLOWDOWNS. SAILORBOY.

"About every six months this issue gets resustated. The same answers are given, nothing changes. Some say they are the best thing since bread, others say they are junk and don't work, some say they cause problems, and lastly some say they are all bad except the one I use. FUD also seem to be a big factor, as is greed to separate you from your money. Any answer you want is out there, and no one seems to change their opinion. They is no answer."

The only obvious conclusion is that all of the answers are correct from the individual's perspective. Consider te following cases:

The user is a tyro, newbie, or casual user: If he/she starts out with a good one, they'll swear by it. If they start out with a bad one, they'll have horror stories. Also, with little technical knowledge or skill, the placebo effect can play a role in their perception.

The user is technically savvy: This sort of user can usually find and fix registry errors using nothing more than regedit, so a registry cleaner may be considered an unnecessary luxury. Also, if the registry cleaner makes different decisions than they would, they tend to condemn the registry cleaner as faulty or dangerous - whether it really is or not.

The user is not only technically savvy, but also actively helps maintain the machines of others: These are the ones that see what damage can be caused by tyros who have tried to use bad registry cleaners or used mediocre ones inappropriately.

Now, add to these perspectives the fact that most registry cleaner vendors use dubious scareware sales tactics and the whole industry develops a bad reputation. The simple truth is that there's no technical reason why someone who understands the workings and limitations of Windows registry system can't write a perfectly safe and useful registry cleaner utility - and some do indeed exist (consider that the registry is nothing more than in internal database and tools to perform automatic consistency checking and repair of databases are quite common). Unfortunately, it's just as true that a number of poorly designed and written registry cleaners exist that can, and often do, result in more harm than good. Finally, toss in the genuine malware writers who see see registry cleaner customers as the perfect marks for hacking or extortion and you have the exact result we've seen here.

All you can do is to follow these steps:

1. Decide if you really need a registry cleaner. If you're trying to cure a PC which has begun slowing down, you probably only need to defrag more often. Registry cleaners are mostly useful after installing or uninstalling software (including updates).

2. If you do decide to get one, practice due diligence. Read this and other forums (unrelated to any specific vendor or product!) After a while, a clear picture will emerge of which products collect kudos and which collect caveats and horror stories.

3. Along the way, try to read between the lines and figure out where the people who post recommendations fit into the categories I described above. Inexperienced users advising other inexperienced users is a classic case of "the blind leading the blind". Similarly, an expert advising that only regedit can be any good may not be a good source of recommendations since he/she obviously belongs to the class of rugged individuals whose advice always bears the unspoken preamble, "First, become an expert like me..."

4. Finally, recognize that even among the good answers, it's not a "one size fits all" world. Try to match your own situation to those giving the advice. If their needs don't correlate with your own, keep reading un til you find those that do.

"Dr. Mark Russinovich is a Technical Fellow at Microsoft, who has written extensively about Microsoft Operating System internals and has access to Microsoft source code, does not believe it is possible to write a viable registry cleaner."

Sorry, but I don't put much stock in anyone (even a Technical Fellow) who's on the payroll of a company that, after two decades of trying, can't produce a better OS than Windows. Windows is poorly designed and executed (note that it's the only OS that uses its klugey registry database of installed applications).

Windows succeeds because of superior marketing, not superior technology, coupled with a dealer and support structure that attempts (and largely succeeds) in locking in both users, dealers, and support staff. Microsoft uses predatory business practices to lock in PC manufacturers, which sets up a cadre of IT support personnel whose continued livelihood depends on Windows' constant need for repair and maintenance. Dr. Russinovich is therefore part of the problem and not a reliable source of unbiased information.

As I noted in my original post. the Windows registry is simply a database. Businesses live and die on their databases and all of them have multiple tools for maintaining them. Maintaining the registry should be no more difficult. If your expert says it's too complicated, then he's either an idiot or promoting the Microsoft company line!

The fact that I can judiciously use my registry cleaner (ASC Pro) to automatically and reliably clean up registry errors that Microsoft's own uninstall program leaves behind is a strong indicator that the man isn't to be trusted.

"An where does your creditability come from. Have you seen any Microsoft Code. Have you seen any operating system source? Have you ever developed an Operating System or been on a team that developed one? Did you ever work on a large Software Project, or even a small one. Except for not seeing Microsoft source code. I have done the rest."

Before I retired last year, I also did all that. I've written a number of dedicated RTOSs for embedded systems. I've browsed (and occasionally modified) Linux internals. The largest software project I ever managed (while manager of firmware R&E for a division of Baker Hughes) was instrumenting the Trans-Java gas pipeline. For the last several years prior to my retirement, I was doing mostly DSP systems design and coding. Let's see, what else? I wrote a small portion of the Symantec C++ standard library. I have written for DDJ and other publications since the mid-80's and have a "guru blog" on the the DDJ web site. I moderated the old FidoNet C_echo and established SNIPPETS, the first language-specific (C) freeware source code collection ever published. In the 80's I consulted for both Cray Research, IBM, and Los Alamos. Because of my work with those three, I've been using POSIX OSs for the past couple of decades. Before that I also worked extensively with Primos for several years and spent some time on DEC systems. In the 70's I was targeted by Apple after writing the system software for an Apple II clone. After talking with their IP lawyers, I was dropped from the lawsuit because I could prove that I hadn't infringed their copyrights (this was before the ascendancy of software patents - an inherently bad idea). I always considered beating Apple's legal bulldogs to be a highpoint of my career.

So, yes, I am familiar with what goes into an OS. I also know that Windows uses klugey data structures for no better reason than to be able to claim IP of a proprietary system. There's certainly no technical advantage in using the registry, just as there's no technical advantage in using MS's obsolescent file systems. Windows does indeed work OK if you invest enough time maintaining it. By contrast, my Linux PCs and Linux server run 24/7/365 with no drama whatsoever. If Microsoft were to suddenly disappear, most of these forums would disappear along with some 30+% of the IT jobs in the country. Without Microsoft, there would be no need for registry cleaners or defrag utilities. There would, of course, still be malware, but it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

"I congratulate on your background, it is better than mine."

As Shakespeare said, "What's past is prologue." I rarely bring up such things in public forums for several reasons:

1. There are a lot of people on the web who are not what they claims and anyone can make any claims they want. Of course, I've been doing this long enough that you can verify all the information you want just by searching for Bob Stout.

2. I don't put that much stock in resumes and credentials. Back when I was managing (I left it after it nearly killed me - I experienced congestive heart failure in 1995), I often hired people that no one else would and they often turned out to be my best people. My right hand guy at Baker had a degree in aeronautical engineering but I happened to know he was a talented programmer from exchanges we'd had online. I also found that musicians often made good programmers whether they had a degree or not.

3. Sometimes, reciting my personal experience sounds like bragging, but it's not. I believe that people should earn respect for what they do or know now, not what happened in the past or what sort of wallpaper they can display.

"'I also know that Windows uses klugey data structures for no better reason than to be able to claim IP of a proprietary system.' Now if would just explain, how you know this?

That's an easy one... If you research the history of Microsoft (my age gives me an advantage here since I've been around for all of Microsoft's history), you'll find repeated instances of Microsoft promoting internal proprietary "standards" rather than adopt free ones established by international standards bodies. Windows itself is a prime example. There exists a standard, POSIX (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX), for operating systems that is used by many government entities. At almost every level, Microsoft has implemented equivalent and even sometimes similar, functionality within Windows that is proprietary. Often the result is a kluge, like the registry. Other times, it's just an inconvenience, like MS Exchange. Sometimes Microsoft fails, like in networking where it finally had to provide equal support for TCP/IP in order to remain competitive.

"Actually defragmenters, and similar products predate the PC. You had to compress/reorganize Partition Data Sets on IBM mainframes. On CDC computers indirect access files reinitialized, and I believe that those responsible for Disk Keeper had a product for VMS. By the way most operating system, (except for Linux) are prosperity. MacOS is, zOS is, VMS may still be, I am not sure, MCP and Exec 8 is/was as so are all current versions of UNIX. When you acquire an Hitachi Mainframe, the Operating System is purchased from IBM. If the Operating system was not prosperity then why would you have to buy it?"

Lots of good points here... Yes defrag has existed for as long as there have been disk drives. I had a defrag utility on my Apple II way back in the day. This is where a POSIX OS has an advantage. Since POSIX OSs are designed to be inherently multi-user, their file systems are designed to allow files to expand and contract with minimal fragmentation. Its multi-user heritage also explains why POSIX OSs are inherently more secure than Windows which evolved from a single-user system and remains so at its heart. POSIX OSs are designed to support multiple concurrent users, while Windows is designed to primarily support multiple sequential users. This key difference is at the heart of many Windows "standards" issues.

Yes, you do have to pay IBM (or Red Hat or Novell or ...) for Linux systems, but what you're buying isn't the OS nut rather support - Linux itself is still free. It has to be noted, however, that Unix in all its varieties (BSD, AIX, HP/UX, Solaris, et al) is not free software and has to be paid for. 90% of the machines I worked with at Los Alamos (mostly Crays and workstations) ran some variety of Unix.

Many comments I have read in these forums recommend a periodic fresh install of your OS (Windows) and then installing only those applications you require. The best way to save yourself a large amount of time and effort is to do the following after backing up all of your data files, emails, contacts, etc:

1) Install your Windows operating system onto a freshly cleaned partition and "activate" it with MS.
2) Install all relevant hardware drivers ONLY required by your motherboard and internal peripheral cards (video, USB3, modem, etc). DO NOT install any external peripheral drivers (e.g. printers, scanners, cameras, etc) as these may come and go as you upgrade or replace them.
3) Download and install all relevant system updates, security patches and service packs for Windows to date.
4) Install all of your "core" applications that you will most likely use for the life of the machine (e.g. MS Office, graphics applications, utilities, etc). These should be programs you wouldn't consider uninstalling or upgrading on a regular basis, if at all, in the future.
5) Configure your email accounts in Outlook or other email app' if you wish, but don't enter in the password to prevent it downloading any data yet. Configure any other applications you have installed so far as you like.
6) Once you're happy that all the appropriate updates have been installed for your OS and applications create a Master Recovery Image of your system partition using Acronis, Norton Ghost, or other such application. Store this on an external hard-drive and/or write it to DVD/s for future recoveries to save you all the time it took to do the above. It's also handy if you have a hard-drive failure too.
7) Install the rest of your applications and restore your data, emails, contacts, favourites, etc.
*) If you wish to start afresh with a (relatively) clean install then you can restore this image and go from there. Enjoy!