Windows 95/98 forum: Bamboozled by Expanded Memory

> What happens if you reduce the memory of the ASUS from
> the gigantic 512 MB to just the big 64 MB?

Can't get there with two sticks, but XMS drops to 256 from 512.

> And may I remark that I think it's bad system management to
> rely on outdated hardware and outdated software. Wouldn't it
> be better to replace that DOS application by a more modern
> one if it doesn't run in the command processor of Windows XP,
> Vista or 7.

It would have been done years ago if there was a Windows equivalent. An alternative was investigated but it would require massive amounts of custom programming which is unustifiable. It cannot run in the simulation command processors of later Windows. Sure it's obsolete, but so long as there is no need to modify/change the use being made of it, that is not relevant.

This "outdated hardware and outdated software" requires less support and fewer resources than anything else we have. This is the first time in several years anything has had to be done.

New does not mean better or cheaper, I only wish everything else ran as well. There are some who would call that good system management.

I'm sorry to write that fixing this one required a person that understood memory organization in the PC as well as how to edit the config files.

Why I'm sorry is that while I've done this in the past I found it too hard to teach the skills needed in the forum.

But I have good news. Last year someone got stuck in your situation and they were able to find some expert to come out and about about 120USD per hour they spend a week setting up the machines for the company. The final bill ran about 6,000 including trip charges but it was a success.

What I'm saying here is that it is still possible to hire the talent.
Bob

> ...fixing this one required a person that understood memory
> organization in the PC as well as how to edit the config files.

I do and I do, hence the 'bamboozled' in the title.

The methods outline in my post should work, which is why I wrote "The only thing that makes sense to me at this point is that the Asus has no contiguous 64KB of space. If so, that is a pretty big deviation from being PC-compatible."

> Last year someone got stuck in your situation and they were able
> to find some expert to come out and about about 120USD per hour
> they spend a week setting up the machines for the company. The
> final bill ran about 6,000 including trip charges but it was a success.

As my original post states, this is one of two machines, one has EMS and the other does not. Hardly worth spending that kind of money on. The hard disks can be swapped between the two, and EMS behavior remains the same. That is why I suspect a hardware incompatiblity and the easy solution would be to replace the Asus with an Iwill KK266 motherboard (still available new occasionally and <$50 used on ebay). Would like to solve the puzzle because the Asus supports SATA and the Iwill does not.

> The second method which confused the heck out of "DOS HEADS" was
> to pop just the HIMEM into config.sys and then let Windows 9x do
> it's EMS magic.

And that's exactly what SHOULD happen, and what does happen on the Iwill.

> Today I would be looking at DOSBOX, VirtualBox and how we can get
> EMS in such emulations.

That seems like a step too far when EMS will not work on one motherboard and does on the other. I keep coming back to a hardware issue and now that a few more hours can be spent on the problem will dig deeper on that side.

I posted to find out if someone on the forum had any technical insight on whether the Asus can support EMS or not.

> it's time to replace that old app

I covered that already when I wrote that replacement "...would have been done years ago if there was a Windows equivalent. An alternative was investigated but it would require massive amounts of custom programming which is unustifiable."

> or learn the new solutions.

Learn what new solutions? This is an app for which there are no new solutions....

Chucking the baby out with the bathwater by spending a bunch of money to get a customized, less than adequate solution, that runs under Windows is not an alternative.

You have to remember, this is hardly a desperate situation. The Asus being unable to support very large files has not bothered anyone for years and will continue not bothering anyone. If it ever does, $50 for an Iwill KK 266 is the easy fix.

> ...one last thing I used back then to MAP OUT THE MACHINE.

I'm in the process of tracking down a copy of MSD to do just that, Microsoft distributed it with DOS and it disappeared under Windows. Once I see the upper memory layout it won't be hard to figure out whether there is a solution or not.

> The new solutions may be to learn how to run dosbox, virtualbox
> or one of the other solutions.

Not necessary....

> I fear that you may need more help by that consultant I noted.

You fear wrong....

For those not familiar with it, the memory map of a PC was pretty simple:

0000 9FFF 640KB of user memory
A000 BFFF 128KB of Video RAM
C000 C7FF 32KB of Video ROM
C800 EFFF 160KB of EMS, ROM and UMBs
F000 F7FF 32KB that may be UMBs but can be BIOS ROM
F800 FFFF 32KB BIOS ROM

After finding a copy of MSD it took but one run to see that the ASUS upper memory has been laid out to prevent EMS. The largest block of contiguous RAM is 60KB from D100-DFFF and EMS requires a 64KB page.

C000-D0FF is mostly ROM and E000-EFFF is 'possibly' available RAM. The term 'possibly' is a euphemism for "MSD cannot tell why it is allocated but it has an assigned usage by the manufacturer". Asus re-defined usable upper memory as:

C800 EFFF 160KB of ROM and UMBs

After changing the BIOS to disable all the integrated peripheral features, a few combinations of forced allocation were tried in CONFIG.SYS. The first to succeed was:

DEVICE = C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM P0=D400 P1=D800 P2=DC00 P3=E000

A warning that "Option ROM or RAM detected within page frame" comes up during boot, but everything continued and W98 booted up without any hesitation. Here is the MEM /C of a DOS window now:

Type of Memory Total Used Free
---------------- ----------- ----------- -----------
Conventional 655,360 114,544 540,816
Upper 14,880 14,880 0
Reserved 0 0 0
Extended (XMS) 67,028,448 ? 535,068,672
---------------- ----------- ----------- -----------
Total memory 67,698,688 ? 535,609,488

Total under 1 MB 670,240 129,424 540,816

Total Expanded (EMS) 67,108,864 (64M)
Free Expanded (EMS) 16,777,216 (16M)
Largest executable program size 540,544 (528K)

The Asus can load very large files and there have been no blue screens during tests. My assumption that disabling options in the BIOS would prevent memory conflicts in the banks they are assigned appears to be proven. Since E000 is not being used by an option, it can be used as EMS by HIMEM. MSD confirmed, the forced allocation is identified as an EMS frame.

As this is a hardware fix, it should work for W2K and XP as well, and may get around to verifying that at some future time.

"For those not familiar with it, the memory map of a PC was pretty simple:"

Sounds like you worked through it but if it was that simple, what happened to cause all this chatter?

And let's hope you didn't close your doors and minds to solutions folk use when they don't have a DOS/WIN9X CD or machine.
Bob

At least we chatted about the other solutions and how this is not getting any better.

That area with no less than two methods to get EMS has caused a lot of lost time and effort. Maybe, someday, someone will write a nice web page on it.
Bob