Windows XP forum: Is Vista going to be the new Windows ME?

Vista may be different, but it'd hardly be like learning a second language. That would assume a rather serious learning disability on the part of the average person. The average computer user might be lazy enough that they don't want to put forth the effort, or arrogant enough to think they shouldn't have to, but those are both completely different from what you describe. I routinely deal with all different versions of Windows, Macs, and other *nix systems. Sure, every now and then I find myself trying to use an idiom from one platform on another, but it's hardly the end of the world when I do.

If anything, the transition from XP to Vista would be like already knowing Italian, and having to learn Latin. It would be a very quick and easy thing to do with a little bit of effort.

There are a whole host of good reasons not to upgrade to Vista, but you don't touch on a single one of them. None of this is directed specifically at you, because there are plenty of people who think exactly the same way.

Change, even if for the sake of change, is not always a bad thing. Change is good. Change bring progress. Even though progress is sometimes painful, it's the only way in which we can grow. Sometimes there are a few missteps along the way, and Vista is probably one of them, but every mistake is an opportunity to learn. The mistakes made with Vista could very well help Microsoft make the next Windows release a true successor to XP. And if it doesn't help Microsoft, maybe it will help Apple improve their operating system even further, and there's the chance that Linux developers could similarly learn from Microsoft's failings.

Vista may well prove to be the wakeup call Microsoft has been in dire need of for probably the last 6-7 years. They've gotten complacent in the wake of their success, and it's allowed competitors like Apple, Mozilla, and Linux to gain a foothold. Windows and Office preload sales are what is keeping Microsoft afloat. Virtually every other part of their business is hemorrhaging money like crazy, or barely breaking even. And those two markets are now starting to see some serious competition from Apple, Linux, and OpenOffice.

Time will tell...

I won't say I agree that it's chicken little of anyone to not want this change. Knowing the history of Vista, I too simply don't want this OS, at all. I didn't even think this way about ME. The saying, change is good even if painful was mainly adopted by marketing practices. Must things change? Yes. Is it always good? No. Vista is a slug of an OS that not only will get people to buy it, but bully them into upgrading every pc that can't run a Vista standard. Sure we can't be expected to run 512 forever but market forcing is a whole different matter. Although XP did this too, but the change was drastic, FAT32 to NTFS, a more stable system breaking from 9x "since ME was a failure to bridge over to ntfs", the whole shot, Vista is just glorified clutter.

Let's not forget, Microsoft was, "don't know if still is" fighting to keep 3rd party securities off the system. Is this change "if happens eventually" good? No, not in any respect possible. Not only would it bring down all 3rd party vendors to their knees, we would have to trust MS security. Are you prepared for that? I know i'm not. Would you then say, change is good even if painful? Vista is a step in the wrong direction, technically speaking Vista is actually older than or about equal to XP, I believe the idea started in 95. All MS is doing is recycling instead of creating. I am not the brightest tech in the forum or anywhere else and don't claim to be, but when I have tested Vista, I felt the OS was like throwing cheap paint on a rusty car.

You do bring up some good points though and I am not attacking you either, simply bringing into light , my opinion on this change. I don't like what MS is thinking with the kernel, perhaps the idea of not hiding certain reg keys and such isn't bad, i'll give it that since rootkits would have to hide in the open but there is always a way around that i'm sure and once again, they would be exploited. Other than some new features, Vista to me is just a system hog and provides nothing for me. The only thing better than ME is the NTFS, and the looks. Other than that, Vista is a sad attempt to keep techs from troubleshooting and users as well. I believe if they follow the Vista path, the next OS will be tech free\tweak free, putting many of us out. So in my opinion, no, this change is not good and the future with MS looks very dark. Excuse me while I go worship a penguin

Paul

and as you mentioned, with the 3 stooges running the enterprise, I feel they need to change as well or suffer for it. Or at least what suffering would mean to them. If Linux, Apple, or any other Open source were inserting intelligence, what they should do is plan ahead. While the group of techs I know may be smaller , we all agree that Vista is a terror and they too will be going to Open source. Apple screwed up years ago and could have been far bigger by now as some would argue, bigger than Microsoft. That's another debate about "what ifs" so I won't go there but the fact remains, would any OS provider be able to handle a flow of new users if MS botches that bad? And as you stated, would the companies go for a deal? The problem, Windows, if you like it or not, is more "let's say common" and therefore seems more user friendly to most. Many think Windows IS the computer. Open source or Apple would have to make quite an easy to use convincing OS to steal the MS spotlight for sure. The problem, and how MS gets away with FrankenOS like Vista, is that people are simply dependent on Windows and don't know much more. This makes me think it would be a good 7 to 10 years before anything could replace Windows completely "IF" that would even happen, and at a steady replacement pace, one pc at a time and through places like Dell.

I see it like this, most open source is free. Windows is expensive as hell. I haven't seen the price of OSX but hear that's up there too. So what we need is a software OS that will combine both worlds, and open source OS that is to most, just as user friendly or has commons with Windows, yet can't be free or expensive. If say, Linux was creating a new OS and charged say 70-99 dollars, hey, that's 200 less than XP and more affordable. While I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of everything when it comes to marketing, or much at all, I think we truly need some REAL competition. Vista has made me wish for other alternatives even more. I know about the free ones but they still aren't enough to stray windows from desktops, otherwise it would have happened. I see myself in a different field other than PC repair in the not too distant future, maybe just paranoid, don't know.

Paul

(:

"Ultimately, I think Microsoft could have handled the situation far better than they did, but at the same time, was really only deserving of about 50-75% of the blame given to it." You are joking of course. How about only 50-75% of your car's engine working correctly? Or that amount handling a Scuba diver's equipment? Or perhaps a lady only being 50-75 pregnant? Microsoft took six years to build a system that fails to accept standards that have been in use for long while. Don't misunderstand: I dislike virtually everything about Symantec's software. It's just that "fair is fair" needs to be applied somewhere. I can find no excuse for Microsoft on this one.

There's really very little training that goes on in companies regarding computers. Virtually all of that is regarding applications used extensively within that company, not the base operating system. The rest, is accounted for by the IT staff which is tasked with coming up with a way to roll it out on dozens, to hundreds, possibly even thousands or tens of thousands of systems... All using a baseline configuration, and so as to be as little a disruption to people doing their jobs as possible. No small order.

Vista will also never have "all the bugs out", and that's just a fact of life. After about a year, there will probably be enough hotfix releases to warrant a service pack. Vista's code is an unwieldy beast, which is why it's so many years delayed and so many features short. It's like trying to find a couple of spelling errors in a 10,000 page manuscript. To make matters even more interesting, at least a dozen people are continually altering the manuscript. Adding bits here, removing bits there, etc.

People accept that things will just be fixed later nowadays instead of demanding better quality control from the start. On the one hand, I have to sit in awe at how Microsoft managed to affect that change in people's opinions. On the other hand, I am quite disgusted by the whole practice. It's one of the biggest reasons I switched to console gaming instead of PC gaming, and I'm horrified at the prospect of game consoles that come with hard drives in them for that reason.

Finally, I don't think we can agree on that last point. I like Macs. Sure they're expensive, but they're very high quality. I have never seen a PC that can take the kind of abuse a Mac can, and continue to run. They also tend to be much lower maintenance compared to Windows based PCs. They're not on the same "set it and forget it" level as Linux or FreeBSD, but they're still worlds beyond Windows. I also tend to prefer to focus my energies on eliminating the situational factors that lead to attacks, rather than just trying to deal with the aftermath. I can do that with AVG Free, Mozilla Firefox, Gmail, careful software selection, and my router's firewall. Kneecaps virtually every attack route, and aside from my router, all completely free.

I agree that Vista decisions will ultimately be for everyone else but only 3% is not even close, it is far higher than that which didn't surprise me for a couple of reasons. People always want something new, this is the thought process these days, also, many people actually believe they HAVE to upgrade. I can't tell you how many people bring me a computer and have me repair it and say, well, I suppose i'll have to shell out money for Vista now, huh? I tell them no you don't HAVE to. Unfortunately, they don't understand and think their computer won't work if they don't. I understand not having complete knowledge of computers but how many will waste money thinking they must do this? It's like dual core all over again only at least with dual core you have a decent improvement. Then there are those who like Vista and will upgrade. Now let's kick in the large corporation factors, they will be installing this on every desktop they sell, people won't have much choice which is what peeves me the most. No, the percentage is far higher than 3%, if I had to take a guess, I would say "if everyone who could afford it" could buy it or will buy it, around 60% due to the factors above. This is only a guess but I can guarantee higher than 3%.

No matter what any of us think, the facts are going to be the same which we all agree...Vista WILL be out there, Vista will be on MANY desktops in not too long, people will buy it. Unless as I stated , there comes an OS that Open source could charge for so they had funding and made this OS even if more user friendly, hiding the mains for purpose that only experienced users could muck with the system while easy enough for less experienced to use like windows. I'm sure this could be accomplished. I would gladly pay 99$ for an open source OS that has a lot of functionality as opposed to windows. That's the grip, it's far cheaper, does what windows does, the programmers get their money, all are happy. If only.

Paul

No need to start getting heated about this, both bring up good points about Vista and both mean well. This was simply a good debate and no statements mean "zero". I think we all agree that Vista is going to be a thorn in our chair warmers. One fact remains, Vista is going to be in if we like it or not and it sounds like none of us are exactly fans of this OS. Just like opinions on OS's there will differences in likes\dislikes on Vista itself, or differences on dislikes however you want to put it. Each one of us are right and wrong in many aspects, this I guarantee. Let's face it, we are going to have to look Vista in the eye no matter what, in some way or another. If either one of you are techs, you know what I mean. I can't stand the OS but I do have to tolerate it or lose customers.

Paul

Well, don't take it personal, as I have learned, you get this no matter what forum you are on. I honestly don't think it was a personal attack , just a heated debate Either way I believe all people's info is valuable and i'm sure others feel the same.

I agree with you, you should wait until all the bugs are worked out. However, Windows XP still has bugs and I don't think any OS will ever truly be 100%. It's just that I think Vista is the next ME and I honestly believe there are going to be MAJOR issues. Just for the fact that XP had SP1. SP2, we should have gotten some free software or a darn rebate for going through the trouble. The service packs were like a complete OS overhaul, I feel there was no excuse except to push a sotware onto the market. This is what Vista is going to do. I don't recall too much open beta testing with XP, so Vista did one thing right but I still think it's going to go haywire once people start using it regularly, new other softwares come out, etc...

Take care,

Paul

It seems that the Vista developers have taken to responding to some of the claims made about Vista's DRM system. Assuming that what is said is both truthful and accurate, and not leaving out key details, most of it sounds fairly reasonable. I still won't likely be upgrading to Vista unless a free copy lands in my lap, but it does sound like at least some of the claims about Vista's handling of DRM have been overexaggerated.

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2007/01/20/windows-vista-content-protection-twenty-questions-and-answers.aspx

To correct my last statement I have to be involved in Vista or I can't fix it for others. But for my own usage, Open source for sure.

Paul

That's why it was just a rant But true enough, due to the movie industry, they are helping to decide how our Operating systems are put together. Vista is bad enough and if the movie or record industry can begin dipping their hands in the OS cookie jar more and more, they won't stop. I have a feeling MS will keep giving in to them.

Paul

...off anyway! But, I did just have a conversation with someone I know who is one of those masses of persons who don't care and will abide with whatever the corporations or governments command. Her exact statement -- "Well, who cares who it is, they are planning on and going to kill us all off anyhow -- well, those of us they don't need." So - you are correct. Out of about 7 billion people on the earth - plans are already made to wipe out over half of them with these new controlled cataclysmic events that everyone thinks is mother nature -- well, they are half right - I guess Man is a creation of mother nature -- but, one way or another, the world at large are going to do what they are told to when it comes to computers and things aren't going to change. For the world's history - there are 2 kinds of powers in the world - one that builds and one that tears down. Very Binary! One that kills and when it's time -- the other side will be allowed to build again....humanity that is...and computers don't mean diddly anyhow.

Just like PC World Feb 2007, Wall Journal, now Cnet reviewer Robert Vamosi of Cnet came out yesterday (1/24/07) saying essentially that for now it is a waste:

http://review.zdnet.com/Windows_Vista_Home_Premium/4505-3672_16-32013237.html?tag=nl.e589

Direct Excerpt:
The bottom line: Windows Vista Home Premium is essentially warmed-over Windows XP Home Edition. If you're currently happy with Windows XP SP2, we see no compelling reason to upgrade. On the other hand, if you need a new computer right now, Windows Vista Home Premium is stable enough for everyday use.

Vista, the next step in keeping you from fixing your pc.

Vista, the next step in putting techs out of business.

Vista, the new bloaded XP edition.

Vista, older than your kids but new to us!

Vista, the greatest thing until VSP1 VSP2 VSP3 VSP4.........>


Paul