Speakeasy forum: Reasonable and moving commentary from Joe Scarborough

from Rahm Emanuel

What's that about striking the iron when it's hot? Quick...react with that legislation you wanted while the country is still in a coma!

you would argue exactly the same reasons against the NRA as the rest of us have been arguing against Unions.....just swap out the 'NRA' for "Union" and we would be in total agreement as far as the argument goes.

>>>The NRA is nothing but a shill and a lobbyist for gun and ammunition manufacturers pushing sales sales sales. They are not honest representatives of gun owners. They were once, but they've changed since I was a kid. That they are as strong as they are, and have controlled the debate since the 70's is entirely wrong, and they should be legally sanctioned. Their money doesn't come from memberships, it comes from manufacturers. I doubt that membership even covers the operational costs of the NRA. They bribe congressmen and senators with Gun and Ammo Manufacturers money, and that should be illegal.>>>>

but since then they have still had mass killings by other means and one in 2002 -

Childers Palace Fire - In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.
Monash University shooting - In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.

Since the ban Australia's violent crime rate has escalated as has England's.

Contrary to what you may "think" the founders visualized technological advances as they had seen advancements in firearms during their own lives and they saw a country where the people were armed with the same weaponry as the armies of this and other nations.

George Mason, of Virginia:

"[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually.". . . I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." -- Virginia`s U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts:
"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms." -- Massachusetts` U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

Tench Coxe, of Pennsylvania:
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American . . . . The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." -- The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788

Noah Webster, of Pennsylvania:
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power." -- An Examination of The Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Philadelphia, 1787

I saw the date and knew there was no direct connection. That it came from a person near to and who seems to think like Obama, was the reason I thought it fit. Obama is a person who knows about timing and how to seize an opportunity. I'd indicated earlier in some other thread that we shouldn't be reactionary here but now would be a good time to burst forward with gun control legislation as a distraction from other matters that are clamoring for attention. Turning immediately to gun control as a cure all will look good when fresh in the minds of people who are still stunned by what happened. I don't, however, see that it's proper to ban purchases by the 99+ % who are honest and responsible because a few are not. If we extend that thinking to other situations, we'd need to ban automobiles because a few drive recklessly or intoxicated. We'd need to ban a lot of things just because they can be and are abused. Just wait for the right moment and not let it go to waste...or so says Rahm.

On Friday morning, a man walked through the entrance of an elementary school and, without warning, began ruthlessly cutting down children at the school. Before he was subdued, nearly two dozen were hit.

While it sounds like the horrific massacre in Connecticut, this attack took place about 8,000 miles away in central China. And while several of the victims were reported in critical condition, none of the 22 children were killed. The 36-year-old suspect in China -- which has strict gun control laws -- attacked the children with a knife, according to local reports.

"The huge difference between this case and the U.S. is not the suspect, nor the situation, but the simple fact he did not have an effective weapon," said Dr. Ding Xueliang, a Harvard-educated sociologist at the University of Science and Technology in Hong Kong.

It's all about firepower, people. Something no one who is fanatically pro-gun seems to want to acknowledge. I'm pro-gun and I am more than willing to say no one needs an assault gun or even a 20+ round clip.

It would have to be grandfathered in, which means the effect of the new laws wouldn't be measurable right away. The only other option would be a buy-back program at taxpayer expense, for the full original cost of each gun. While I would love to see these weapons off the street, I don't think it's fair to force people who bought them legally to just throw them away at a loss, and if they're illegal to own then they are also worthless in terms of resale.

He suggested raising the price of bullets to $5,000 each, which would lead to scenes like this:

"Man, I would blow your motherf*****' brains out.....if I could afford it."

You might want to educate yourself with this list of mass killings related to schools and school children and note that MANY DIFFERENT METHODS were used ranging from firearms to bombs to knives and swords.

Some were in the US and some were in other countries and they are listed beginning with:

Enoch Brown school massacre. On July 26, 1764, four Lenape American Indian warriors entered a log schoolhouse of white settlers in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania, near present-day Greencastle. Inside were the schoolmaster, Enoch Brown, and twelve young students. Brown pleaded with the warriors to spare the children before being shot and scalped. The warriors then began to tomahawk and scalp the children, killing nine or ten of them (reports vary). Two children who had been scalped survived.[1]

and moving to:


Bath School disaster.
School board member Andrew Kehoe set up a series of explosions in the
Bath elementary school. That morning he killed his wife and <b>detonated a bomb
inside the school. As people amassed outside, Kehoe detonated his
shrapnel-filled vehicle outside the school</b>, in which he took his own
life. The bombings constituted the deadliest act of mass murder in any
type of school setting in U.S. history.

and on to more recent times like 1959:


Poe Elementary School attack.
The morning that Paul Orgeron's second-grade son is denied enrollment, <b>he detonates an explosive on the school playground during recess,
killing himself; his son, Dusty; a teacher; a custodian and two
seven-year-old boys</b>. The school principal and 18 students aged six to
ten are injured, many seriously.

and:

October 10, 1977 when A man running through the halls of El Socorro public school <b>killed four
children with a machete</b>, as well as a woman outside the school when
trying to escape. He was later arrested by police

and more recently in Latvia:

February 22, 1999 19-year-old Alexander Koryakov entered a kindergarten in Gulbene where <b>he chopped three girls to death with a meat cleaver. He also killed a
teacher and wounded a nurse</b>, before trying to escape. After his arrest
he told police that he wanted to become as famous as Russian serial
killer Andrei Chikatilo.

and:

May 3, 1999 teven Allen Abrams purposefully drove his car
onto the playground of Southcoast Early Childhood Learning Center. He
killed two children and injured four other children and an adult. Abrams
later stated that he thought the deaths of the children would silence
the voices that he thought the US government was beaming into his brain

leading up to:

March 23, 2010
Nanping school stabbings. Eight children were hacked to death with a machete and five others were injured outside an elementary school in Nanping China. The assailant, identified as 41-year-old Zheng Minsheng, was restrained by school security guards and then arrested by police.

and:

November 15, 2011 Gilford Shapo, teacher at Mmasehlong Primary School in Ga-Mmasehlong
village South Africa, was hacked to death with a machete in front of his class by his
brother Happy. The attacker was arrested by police.

and those are a VERY SMALL sample of the many school killings by other means than firearms. China leans toward knives, meat cleavers and swords since firearms are not available but the result is DEAD CHILDREN regardless of the means.

All firearm victims are not necessarily killed either so don't allow yourself to think that death is more likely if a firearm is used as the list shows a VERY DIFFERENT STORY!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_primary_schools

For instance Klebold in Columbine shooting shot one girl 11 times after mocking her for praying to Jesus. I wonder how she'd have done if instead it had been 15 machete hits instead?

The bloodiest usually involved semiautomatic guns designed to kill people. Most people who go on these rampages prefer large clips that allow them to shoot multiple rounds before the need to reload.

As an example, Dylan Klebold was equipped with a 9 mm Intratec TEC-9 semi-automatic handgun with one 52-, one 32-, and one 28-round magazine which he fired for a total of 55 times.. His partner Eric Harris was equipped with a Hi-Point 995 Carbine 9 mm carbine with thirteen 10-round magazines, which he fired a total of 96 times.

BTW... mentioning the known historical record of school attacks is interesting, but it doesn't really have a whole lot to do with modern attacks, now does it? Does it apply to the occasional restaurant mass shootings? The movie theater attacks? The sporadic attempted assassinations of arizona senators?

The point I made while talking about China is that the deadlier the weapon, the more deaths. Are you disputing this statement specifically? Are you saying that we should ignore this reality and do nothing to reduce availability of massed firepower?

I'm a gun owner. I intend on staying a gun owner. I'm just saying that I know of no hunter or home owner that needs the destructive power offered by a 10 round clip, let alone a 30 round clip or larger.

"The bloodiest usually involved semiautomatic guns designed to kill people. Most people who go on these rampages prefer large clips that allow them to shoot multiple rounds before the need to reload. "

A couple of things are obvious from that statement:
1. You haven't seen any multiple killings. These "Eight children were hacked to death with a machete and five others were injured" would have been a WHOLE LOT BLOODIER than the same number shot.

2. So far as I am aware not a single one of the "people who go on these rampages" had any clips with them. Had they relied on clips their reloads would have been limited to the 5 round clips, 8 round clips of a Garand or 10 round stripper clips common to the 5.56 round. There are no 30 round clips nor have there ever been any.

"BTW... mentioning the known historical record of school attacks is interesting, but it doesn't really have a whole lot to do with modern attacks, now does it? Does it apply to the occasional restaurant mass shootings? The movie theater attacks? The sporadic attempted assassinations of Arizona senators?"

What we can glean from that comment is that you DID NOT read the link provided and since this thread concerns the Sandy Hook school shooting comparing it to previous school attacks is apples to apples while comparing it to a theater or shopping mall shooting would be apples to pineapples - not even close.

I tell you what... pick up that banana and come at me.

You want to know the one common theme about public mass murders in the USA?

They are never committed by career criminals. They are done by common people. People who are known by their neighbors. People who go to work or go to school. People who go about their business until one day, a switch flips in their head. These are not people that red flag in the system. They are not the ones the police keep an eye on. They are the ones who pass gun buying waiting periods.

The propaganda about how, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns is just so much balderdash. The people who go on these rampages are not criminals. That is the whole point of this thread. Your neighbor who has the easiest access to weapons of war are the ones you have to worry about the most because they are the ones most likely to pick up an assault rifle.

Don't get me wrong. I used to hunt and I still own guns. I just don't feel the need to own a modern military weapon that would allow me to cut down a dozen deer at once..

Interesting argument, someone could apply that to all horrendous crimes and deduce the individual didn't need to be accountable but "helped".

That said, how much can someone do for someone who is "off"? Local man on local news tonight back to camera to not identify the family. He's actually afraid his son may end up killing someone. He's tried to get help, but the son is over 18, and not yet committed a crime to get him a mental evalutation or a felony record.

So this guy, whose father thinks may become dangerous, is legally qualified to buy a gun.

How much are we willing to provide in mental health care? the most vocal people want everyone to pay their own way for everything now it seems. Are we willing to prejudge someone will do violence before they do? that's a nasty can of worms.

mental health conditions can arise. The cost would be astronomical as we'd need to change our entire lifestyles by giving children the best of ourselves before they become the worst of themselves.