Speakeasy forum: Slander, Libel...or both maybe?

including safety training. You are correct that the state of Florida has no dedicated concealed carry certification program but I don't see other states having such either. My own state, which BTW has a reciprocal agreement with Florida, says:

"The ability to demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude
necessary to shoot a handgun in a safe manner;"

"Attitude", I'd think is the operative word and would be necessary in to be certified in any course that qualifies.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make but I presumed it was to suggest Florida had lower standards than most other states which made George Zimmerman's permit of questionable value. Sorry if I misunderstood.

... is not very high in the state of Florida. If you want to mention the fact that other states standards are not very high too, then I recognize this fact even if I find that it does little to support Zimmerman.

The original statement I made a response to was this... "As for training, George Zimmerman had a "concealed carry" permit. To my knowledge most, if not all, states require some level of training to obtain that permit. It's always hoped, just as it is for those who take CPR courses, that the training will never need to be used. Unfortunately, real proficiency is only gained through the actual experience of both success and failures."

From your comment... CPR is a specific training meant to deal with a specific crisis. I think we have both demonstrated with our later posts that most states (including Florida) do not require specific training to deal with specific crisis when people are given a permit to carry a hidden weapon. The only minimum training required is a 3 hour course that demonstrates you have been made aware of how easy it is to accidentally shoot yourself or one of your companions, and that training is specific to a hunting setting and does not cover urban or suburban streets.

Carrying a gun which will punch the bullet through the body and out the other side, to the danger of anybody for a mile or more is fine, but if your pocket knife is "a silly millimeter longer" you're for it (in for trouble) for carrying a dangerous concealed weapon.

Rob

If Trayvon was worried like his "girlfriend" claims, why didn't he be the one to call the police? He must not have been THAT worried.

as you said, it's the "claims" that are in doubt.

eventually provoking a confrontation. That's how Zimmerman told it There's this kid who's looking around and several more minutes of conversation with the police after which I assume he left the SUV and followed the kid on foot, or maybe the kid came back to the car and said "Why are you following m?" and a scuffle occurred. If you follow somebody for any distance, it is you who are threatening them, not the other way around. Added to that whatever else happened, the kid was shot at medium distance, which I take to mean 10 to 25 or more feet.

I notice that the position of the shot or shots on Trayvon's body has not been indicated in any report I've seen. If I were Trayvon's age and somebody had a hand gun, I'd jackrabbit out of there so fast zigging and zagging to save my soul. Even if he was shot face to face at a distance of 15 feet it seems to me an act of gross stupidity. An unarmed kid that far away is no threat. Why didn't Zimmerman just carry a video camera and record the kid, and keep the gun in its holster? This is not the f*@%ing Wild West.

Rob

Yeah.,..he was "just out for a stroll" , That's the ticket...I wasn't following anybody...he was walking in front of me. The guy I shot wasn't the same guy I phoned the police about. You heard that one here first.

just as much as Trayvon, wouldn't you agree

Are you now conceding that Trayvon had a right to walk around the gated community?

Josh, have you thought about possible reasons for an attack? In other cases, I ave noticed a reason for an attack that is cultural and fairly new. Some people get upset if they feel that they have been "disrespected". People have gone to an area for the first time and have been attacked because they showed "disrespect" to somebody in that person's opinion. The victim may have no idea of what he was supposed to have done. It can be just happening to be wearing something of the wrong color, causing some people to think they are disrespecting by "representing". Or it can just be them being in a territory that is not "his".
The offense of disrespect can appear in the minds of people in unexpected situations. Consider the story about the teacher who got in trouble for her exchange with a student that was all over the news yesterday. Did you hear the audio that was recorded by the student? I couldn't help but notice that the teacher was upset by what she thought of as "disrespect". She used that exact word.
My point with this is that Trayvon may have considered something like Zimmerman asking who he was and where was he going "disrespect" and justification for an attack. Zimmerman, not being of the same age/culture mindset, may not have even understood the idea of the existence of an offense of "disrespecting". The whole thing might have been caused by something that was considered an offense by one party, while the other party was unfamiliar with the concept of that offense.

to his vehicle when Martin approached him from behind. They exchanged words and Martin punched him knocking him to the ground. Is there any possibility of truth in that statement or is it an outright fabrication? Does he get any benefit of the doubt or has he proven to be undeserving? These "true or false" questions have no one here qualified to grade the papers.

was approaching him...coming to check him out while having his hands in his waistband. Why would a frightened young man do that? Could be something already brewing? To bad guesses don't count or we'd all have this thing solved. It wouldn't matter that the conclusions would be conflicting ones.

review the tapes again.

Steve and I were talking about after the first encounter...when Zimmerman was going back to his truck AFTER Martin ran off and Zimmerman followed him.

Got a hoodie? (a hoodie without a zipper, was his hoodie zipperless, most are)

Put it on.

...put your hands in your waistband.

Can anyone see your waistband?

Can they see what you have in your hands?

Zimmerman said he could see hands in the waistband.

.....after following Trayvon Martin closely enough to give the boy a good scare, and confronting him with "What are you doing around here" questions.

Bottom line, even if Zimmerman thought Trayvon looked suspicious for some reason, his responsibility ended with his call to the police. Everything he did after that constituted instigation, which kills his self-defense claim. It's not like Trayvon was being tailed by a uniformed police officer. Trayvon had no idea who he was. I'd have been scared too. Confronting Zimmerman (if that's what happened) was probably not the smartest thing to do; most self-defense experts will advise you to get away from the person who is following you and get to a safe place if you can, but if Zimmerman had done what the police asked him to do, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.

Guns give a false sense of security and power. I doubt if Zimmerman would have done anything more than call the police if he hadn't had a false sense of power.

A friend of mine once told me that he quit carrying his weapon because of an incident on the street. A couple punks made some snide remarks that my friend could have walked away from. Instead, he pulled his pistol and let a round off in the air. My buddy realized he could have easily let loose and the street punks and that the problems could have been avoided altogether if he hadn't had a false sense of power over the situation.

Robert Heinlein wrote in one of his books that he would rather be armed with a knife than a gun because being lightly armed would make one cautious as apposed to being heavily armed which makes one over confident.

I still maintain that Zimmerman was an accident waiting to happen.