Speakeasy forum: Labor Dept rule prevents

It does away with "Mentoring" among farmers

by James Denison - 4/25/12 3:08 PM

In Reply to: Important to note.... by Josh K

Often children who live in a rural town, have no land of their own, are mentored by surrounding farms which aid them in learning how to run a farm. It also provides an outlet for that teenage energy and serves as a source of pride for them in those rural areas.One of the biggest problems in farm areas including ranching areas too, are the increasing average age of the farmer and rancher due to fewer and fewer young men and women entering the farm economy. Sorry townnie kids, you lose out.

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Also farm co-ops and, even more so,

by Steven Haninger - 4/25/12 3:25 PM

In Reply to: It does away with "Mentoring" among farmers by James Denison

might be the Amish and Mennonite communities that could be affected. The very reason for large families was often because children were cheap labor. Is that idea inherently evil? I don't think so. Families were not just ma, pa and their own kids either. Go into some of the old country graveyards and you won't see a unique surname on every headstone. Families were large and people shared what they had so that all could survive...and without government intervention either.

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I posted that a while back

by Steven Haninger - 4/25/12 1:23 PM

In Reply to: Labor Dept rule prevents by TONI H

I believe some safety issues with farm machinery were cited. The counter argument was that farming isn't taught in schools of any kind. It's learned on the farm and the learning begins at an early age. Makes sense to me. Isn't that how many family businesses and trades came about? I think the plan is stupid.

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"family"?

from one of your links

The amount of attention this regulation has received has made it question how farmers work their young relatives, innocently thinking they were covered under a family farm exemption. This is simply not true. The regulations have always been a parent exemption. The new regulations increase the clarification of that traditional law and are bringing light to a subject that may alter the dynamics of many family farms.

While it has always been in the child labor regulations that children working for their parents were exempt from following these rules, changes in ownership patterns and corporate farm structures are in fact violating these rules written 40 years ago. Operations have changed over time, and farmers managing family farms are not always "parents." In fact they may be uncles, aunts, or grandparents - people who do not have custody of the children working for the family operation.

MY link

"This rule will have a dramatic effect on our Ranching Operation. We will not be able to work our Grandchildren, Nieces and Nephews.

Clearly, the rationale for the upgraded standards is a concern for the welfare of young workers and for minimizing specific workplace injuries the department has investigated. That's what the rules actually say; they're based on actual injuries. The report in some sections is not for the squeamish, detailing sometimes gruesome injuries and deaths like youths chewed up in various kinds of machinery. Such concerns date to the turn of the last century and are memorialized in the findings of the National Institutes for Occupational Safety and Health which routinely look at promoting safe work conditions for young workers. You can see an example of the agency's concern from 1999 here.

Ranching Operation?...Family Farm?

Which one sounds like a corporation?

RE: Prevents kids from working on family farms

by JP Bill - 4/25/12 1:31 PM

In Reply to: Labor Dept rule prevents by TONI H

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Injuries

by TONI H - 4/25/12 1:45 PM

In Reply to: RE: Prevents kids from working on family farms by JP Bill

According to a United States Department of Agriculture study, farm accidents among youth fell nearly 40 percent between 2001 and 2009, to 7.2 injuries per 1,000 farms. The study link: http://www.usda.gov/nass/PUBS/TODAYRPT/injr0412.pdf

The parent exemption is no longer allowed according to the Labor Department Rule that will go into effect in August which is why Congress is pressing to pass a bill to stop this.

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From your link

by JP Bill - 4/25/12 7:32 PM

In Reply to: Injuries by TONI H

Injuries to Youth on Farms in the United States, 2001, 2004, 2006, and 2009

In each survey year, work-related injuries to hired and working household youth contributed to approximately a quarter of childhood injuries occurring on these farm operations.

so 25 % were hired and working household youth

The other 75% were non-household working youth......the group that this legislation is trying to protect?

The parent exemption is no longer allowed

However, the third sentence of the first paragraph of the summary of the proposed rules changes, as published by the DOL, reads as follows: "The proposed agricultural revisions would impact only hired farm workers and in no way compromise the statutory child labor parental exemption involving children working on farms owned or operated by their parents." So, no matter the government rules, if a parent with some ownership in the farm tells a child to crank up the milking machine, there's nothing to prohibit it.

Someone has their wires crossed...I'm not saying it's you.

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No wires crossed

by TONI H - 4/26/12 12:51 AM

In Reply to: From your link by JP Bill

The rule you stated says : if a parent with SOME ownership in the farm......

The problem is in the rural areas where, as James pointed out, many farms are worked by entire families....due to credit issues or inheritances, perhaps one brother owns the land, but the other brothers and sisters help work it with equal shares in the profits and labor, including the kids. Under this rule, the children of the non-ownership members of the family wouldn't be allowed to have their children help on the farm and they wouldn't be able to help work at the animal auctions or show animals at the county fairs, etc. Nor could any veterinarian's children learn the trade by going with their mother or father to any farms other than their own. This rule is very restrictive and harms generations of farmers and other farm industries where children couldn't work with their parents in their businesses, such as hardware/repair shops because many times those are 'off site' repairs.

Higher education is being pushed by BO but he has taken no consideration into the 'trade' areas where kids actually learn something other than philosphy and liberal arts. Not everybody is 'college' material nor do many have a desire to go to college....they like working with their hands, and farming, and working with animals, and most learn it at a very young age and make a living at it. He and his agencies are putting all of that in jeopardy with their restrictions.

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RE:if a parent with SOME ownership in the farm....

by JP Bill - 4/26/12 3:19 AM

In Reply to: No wires crossed by TONI H

well yeah....

It has to be something...

It can be total ownership, some ownership OR NO ownership..

Which classification do you think would allow the children the best opportunity to work on their parents farm?

I go with SOME ownership....the "brothers" that want their nieces and nephews to work on their farm? They should give their brother a piece of the farm then they are part owners.

THAT'S how a corporation would get around that law.

In another post you were going to pay a 12 year old kid 50 bucks to pull weeds and trim your hedges...Are you afraid of losing out on that deal?

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whatever.......

by TONI H - 4/26/12 3:42 AM

In Reply to: RE:if a parent with SOME ownership in the farm.... by JP Bill

your nonsense gets tiring.....

Under this rule, nieces and nephews wouldn't be allowed to mow their uncle's lawns.....or anybody else's for that matter....just as kids aren't allowed to sell lemonaide anymore in front of their own homes on their own property unless they have an expensive ($200) permit now.

Are kids allowed to work on farms in Canada if the farm isn't owned by their parents? Are they allowed to work on 4-H projects or learn a trade from anyone other than their parents? Are they allowed to sell lemonaide on their front lawns? Are they allowed to show their animals at a local fair? Are they allowed to change a sparkplug on a lawnmower or use a battery operated screwdriver even if it is on their parents' property? Are they allowed to use a gas powered or electric lawnmower or hedgetrimmer or weedwhacker?

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your nonsense gets tiring.....

by JP Bill - 4/26/12 3:45 AM

In Reply to: whatever....... by TONI H

but not THAT tiring.

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$200 lemonade permits?

by Josh K - 4/26/12 4:34 AM

In Reply to: whatever....... by TONI H

This is the kind of nonsense that makes it impossible to take any of your claims seriously. There is no federal law requiring kids to pay $200 for a permit to sell lemonade.

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That's a State or Local Government rule/law

by TONI H - 4/26/12 4:42 AM

In Reply to: $200 lemonade permits? by Josh K

and it's not nonsense if it's true, Josh.

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IF it's true

by Josh K - 4/26/12 5:56 AM

In Reply to: That's a State or Local Government rule/law by TONI H

I Googled and couldn't find any references to a $200 permit. Perhaps you can provide a link.

And remember, the subject of your post was federal regulation.

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No, but if you don't buy a permit

by Steven Haninger - 4/26/12 6:01 AM

In Reply to: IF it's true by Josh K

it might cost you 500 smackers

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Links

by TONI H - 4/26/12 6:24 AM

In Reply to: IF it's true by Josh K

Midway, GA.....$50 per day permit http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2012/3/2/killing-lemonade-stands-shows-american-dream-turni/

Here's a list of many....going back a few years, but many just in 2011...
http://www.mofreedom.org/2011/07/the-government-war-on-kid-run-concession-stands/

I remember seeing the video clip on the news a few months ago about the little girl whose stand was closed in the New England area (can't recall which State) and the mother was stunned that the permit would have been $200 per day .. it was called a temporary food license. I can't locate the story or the video now...but you can see from my links that some of the permits and the fines are outrageous.

Government is government....it doesn't matter which one decides to grab a buck from your pocket when the State and Local governments are hurting badly...they'll find a way to get what they can no matter what or who they hurt in the process.

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This might be similar to what you saw

by Steven Haninger - 4/26/12 6:36 AM

In Reply to: Links by TONI H

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dca/html/licenses/094.shtml

It has to do with food carts one might see on the streets. It may be that the same rules reply to kid's who put up drink stands. They were quite common when I was a kid.

You might recall Lucy Van Pelt in the Peanuts comic strip with her psychiatry help stand. I'm sure a streetside medical practice kiosk would command a higher permit fee.

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So your previous statement....

by Josh K - 4/26/12 6:39 AM

In Reply to: Links by TONI H

....that it's impossible for a kid in America to run a lemonade stand without a $200 permit was, by your own admission, an exaggeration.

I thought the whole Republican mantra was to keep the federal government out of things and let states make their own laws. Perhaps some federal oversight would prevent this kind of gouging by the states, hmmm?

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Not an exaggeration, Josh

by TONI H - 4/26/12 7:31 AM

In Reply to: So your previous statement.... by Josh K

I said in my post that I saw the live video story on the news, but I can't locate it now online. I remember being very surprised at the $200 amount for the permit. However, in the link I gave, it might be in one of those listed since I didn't click each one to locate one. Even a $120/$150 permit for a lemonade stand is excessive, doncha think? And a $500 fine????

The whole point of this thread was to point out how intrusive government, Federal, Local, or State has gotten when it comes to kids being able to work, earn some money, and learn a trade that they might use as a career later on when college isn't an option (by funding or by choice).

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Note: Due to the depth of this discussion thread, no additional replies can be accepted for this post. If you have comments to make, please reply to the original post at the beginning of this thread.

no federal law

by James Denison - 4/26/12 3:57 PM

In Reply to: $200 lemonade permits? by Josh K

yet local laws often reflect federal mandates?

License for Lemonade stand is $180.

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Ok, so what do you think the US government's role

by Steven Haninger - 4/26/12 4:02 AM

In Reply to: RE:if a parent with SOME ownership in the farm.... by JP Bill

should be on managing the US family farm? Spell out the regulations you'd impose on parents as far as allowing or expecting their children to contribute to the family's livelihood. Tell us the tasks they can do and the appropriate age you'd authorize them to perform these? Tell us what your long and short term goals would be. Tell us if government has the right to decide what these goals should be as well.

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Tell us the tasks they can do

by JP Bill - 4/26/12 4:17 AM

In Reply to: Ok, so what do you think the US government's role by Steven Haninger

help with the milking twice a day, collect eggs, and pick sweet corn and wild blackberries in season. Fill up more baskets at the local apple orchard.

The 15 proposed rules - known as "hazardous occupation orders" - would, for the first time in decades, update the list of farm tasks considered too dangerous for children under age 16 working for hire. New restrictions would include operating certain heavy machinery, working in silos and grain storage facilities, and handling pesticides.

The Department of Labor has long held responsibility for restricting employers from hiring children to do tasks that are considered hazardous. In agriculture, those restrictions lift at age 16; while in all other jobs, hazardous work cannot be done until age 18. The rules do not apply to children working on farms owned or operated by their parents, and Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis said at a House hearing recently that she intends to expand the "parental exemption" to allow children to work without safety restriction on farms owned by other relatives.

"other relatives, eh"...VERY INTERESTING

From some of the stories I've heard...everyone in the South is your relative (even more so when it comes to having kids work on the "family farm")....

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Ok, so it's Ok if

by Steven Haninger - 4/26/12 5:43 AM

In Reply to: Tell us the tasks they can do by JP Bill

the child does this as an educational vacation or school field trip experience but not as entry level OJT toward a possible career or just to help out at home. Yes, I think every aspiring philosophy and public policy major should be encouraged to experience farm life without the actual dangers associated with it.

But seriously, I can't have a problem with "work for hire" but I do have one with intrusion on family life. Can we be certain that will be the case? Promises, promises...I'm all through with promises...

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RE: but not as entry level OJT toward a possible career

by JP Bill - 4/26/12 7:15 AM

In Reply to: Ok, so it's Ok if by Steven Haninger

but not as entry level OJT toward a possible career or just to help out at home.

No..they can do what kids on vacation do until they are 16/18, THEN they can do whatever they want.

I'll even give kids on vacation permission to shovel manure, just to show them what it's like in the real world.

What business has a 10 year old kid GOT TO DO in a grain silo...that his/her parent isn't doing?

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Well, wait a minute here

by Steven Haninger - 4/26/12 8:37 AM

In Reply to: RE: but not as entry level OJT toward a possible career by JP Bill

I presumed we were already talking about farmer's children. Does this mean

"No..they can do what kids on vacation do until they are 16/18, THEN they can do whatever they want."

that farmer's children can go to "vacation" farms and work but cannot work on the family farm until a certain age? Until the new laws kick in, some of these younger kids could probably be instructors on these vacation farms. How about that? They could teach what they'd not be allowed to actually do at home.

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Yes, they can work on the family farm

by Josh K - 4/26/12 8:39 AM

In Reply to: Well, wait a minute here by Steven Haninger

As previously posted, this law does NOT prevent kids from working on their families' farms, despite the hysteria suggesting that.

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That's not what I was commenting on

by Steven Haninger - 4/26/12 5:03 PM

In Reply to: Yes, they can work on the family farm by Josh K

I was commenting on JP Bill's link here and his suggestion that on such vacation farms it was OK but not on real farms until they were older. It had nothing to do with the current proposal in congress but with JP Bill's.

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I'll explain

by JP Bill - 4/26/12 7:04 PM

In Reply to: Well, wait a minute here by Steven Haninger

The kids that work on Family farms can do the same things on the family farm that the kids do when they visit a vacation farms.

kids that work on the family farm can

help with the milking twice a day, collect eggs, and pick sweet corn and wild blackberries in season. Fill up more baskets at the local apple orchard.

IF I was making the rules I would also require them to wear a pair of leather gloves while picking blackberries...the last time I picked them, the thorns did a job on my hands

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Leather gloves for berry picking?

by Steven Haninger - 4/27/12 1:54 AM

In Reply to: I'll explain by JP Bill

They'd laugh at you and use all sorts of derogatory terms such as "city boy" and tell you you needed to toughen up and quit whining.

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