Speakeasy forum: I could care less about Anne Rice, Lilly Burana has stated

I can't argue that some may have been called, chosen or groomed for special purpose and I won't dwell on it. But, any Calvinist thought that all the fate of all persons has been predetermined flies fully in the face of any reason for God to put Jesus on earth.

ed. And this leads to my trouble with Paul as well. I believe in Christ, but I have a great deal of trouble with what Paul and various others including St. Augustine of Hippo turned his Gospel into.

I ran into a very good discussion of Christianity versus Paulinism, and the way in which the persecutor Saul turned into the persecutor Paul. I hope I posted it here, because I have forgotten its source at the moment. Regrettably an orl acquaintance of mine who is a Professor of Medieval Religion at Notre Dame, hasn't responded to inquiries on this subject.

Rob

I remember an old Bible study reading which, when discussing the virgin birth of Jesus, stated that Joseph hadn't "known" Mary and thinking this sounded more like some sort of criminal alibi..."Hey! I'm not the father. I don't even know the lady"...sort of thing. And later we have the term carnal "knowledge". Thus, to "know" someone could mean to have had sexual relations with them. How odd, indeed. To know someone, I believe, is more properly stated as being acquainted with them. Another German word I recall from my brief study of the language was "kennenlearnen" which, if literally translated to English becomes "learn to know" which can have several uses including to become familiar or acquainted with someone or something. In seeing the word "ken" in lots of Scots music I recalled the German connection but didn't see much else in other Scots verse that could confirm a German influence.

BTW, as a sidebar, I we got to see Natalie MacMaster at our Dublin (Ohio) Irish Festival over the weekend. What good time and such a talented and energetic lady she is. She and her band performed to a packed and audience in a semi-outdoor venue in 90+ temperatures on a stage with plenty of lighting and heavy equipment adding to the heat. I was glad to be among a crowd of gracious and appreciative local people who gave back the enthusiasm that she displayed with thunderous applause and all the whoopin' and hollerin' that should have made her feel welcome. Of course the steady flow of pints of beer and stout might have made a contribution as well.

The one which you seem to have read is only regarding the term "Predestination" as a Calvinist doctrine befitting the way it was used in the original post by a supposed Scotsman. Yes, there is a Catholic doctrine regarding predestination and there is much written about the subject. It does not take the Presbyterian, reformed or Calvinist viewpoint. The Calvinist viewpoint is considered a heretical teaching by the Catholic church and that should be no surprise. If I understand correctly, the Calvinist doctrine teaches that God has pre-determined who will answer God's call to salvation and who will not....or something to that affect. The Catholic doctrine teaches that humans are born with free will to choose or not choose to answer. That Jesus was born on the earth and prepared others to go out and preach God's word so that they might know better how to come to salvation is, IMO, plenty enough evidence to validate the notion of human free will rather than having, at time of birth, no say in their eternal destiny.

was Presbyterian (ARP) minister with a D. D and his last name was Edwards. His brother was also a Presbyterian minister as was the father, grandfather, etc. in a long line that my family oral history claims to trace to the Jonathan you mentioned. Our family genealogist hasn't been able to affirm that bloodline so far. Long ago, I wanted to read his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and maybe someday I will...if just out of curiosity. I did attend my granddaddy's ARP church when we lived or visited where he preached but I was quite young and not able to grasp what was being said but I do recall some "spirited" discussions between him and another preacher in the family who was, I believe, Methodist. I did learn early that Christians weren't exactly all of one accord.

I, personally, don't take much issue with persons who've chosen other Christian churches as their places of worship. And, despite rumors to the contrary, I've never heard any ordained Catholic tell me that only members of our church will see heaven. There must be a reason for the various Christian credos...perhaps just that it inspires us to search beyond biblical sufficiency to find more or better answers to improve our understanding. If we just look at the way Jesus taught we can see that one should never ask Him a question if they have a plane to catch anytime soon. He didn't offer answers directly but the means to find them within ourselves and our conversations with others.