Buzz Out Loud Lounge forum: Are There Any Hybrid Hypermilers Residing In Buzztown?

We had the 2003 Civic Hybrid and even in the worst of winter we barely dropped below 40. But Honda has "lost the magic" on the 2006 and apparently the 2007 Hybrids so I'll write to stay away from them until they issue new software.

I've called Honda America for hours and the car was in the shop for a week but no one knew that as the temperature dropped to 60F then 50F that the cars programming would kick the mileage down so far. With some near 32F weather it declined to the low 30 MPG so we miss the old model which did much better year round.

Stick with the Prius for now.

More reading about this woe at http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/forumdisplay.php?f=12

If you live in warm 65F+ areas the new models will do fine, but not for northern areas.

Bob

Happy New Year 2007, Bob --- I am disappointed to hear that the Fuel Efficiency 2006 Civic Hybrid Horror story you shared with me in the Gadgettes Lounge last August about the MPG shortfall between your new 2006 HCH, and your old fuel sipping 2003 HCH continues on. At least your son is getting great MPG out of the 2003 he inherited from you.

The new HCH control S/W must have been tweaked to stay in the rich-burn mode longer as the engine warms up before transitioning to fuel-sipping lean-burn mode. Was this change for emissions or other technical performance reasons? What story has Honda given you?

I have been following the Honda and Toyota Hybrids since 1999 when Honda first came out with their 66 MPG, 2-passenger Insight in the U.S. As a result, I am familiar with the technical details of both the Honda ISA and the Toyota HSD hybrid implementations.

For years, and until recently, there was an unreasonably hot market for hybrid cars. Our local Honda and Toyota dealers both had 6-8 week waiting lists, and no on-lot inventories. A new Prius was garnering a $3K-$4K premium over sticker price, with the Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) fetching a $2K-$3K premium over sticker. In the last few months, the hybrid feeding frenzy seems to have subsided. You can now find hybrids available on the dealers lots. This cool down in frenzied demand may be due the ebbing of gasoline prices down from $3++ to $2+ or the Hybrid Tax Rebate/Credit being phased out, or maybe because of both. I do not know.

Today, in my area any way, there are on-lot inventories of Honda and Toyota hybrids. They are now more fairly and reasonably priced, and the local dealers are more open to price negotiation. Therefore, I finally went out and bought one.

Dealer pricing for the Civic Hybrid versus the Toyota Prius Hybrid is about the same for comparably optioned hybrid vehicles. My local Honda dealer resisted negotiating with me on price more then did my Toyota dealer. My Toyota dealer was willing to dicker with me on price down to 7.5% below window sticker. Honda was not, and had more of a take-it-or-leave-it sales posture.

Even when I took price out of the buying decision process, my personal analysis told me that if I really needed a hybrid car that gets stellar mileage along with a slightly more elegant technology edge --- Prius was the choice. Anecdotally, and per EPA FE numbers, the Prius gets better gas mileage then the HCH, is slightly quicker, and has a more spacious cockpit along with more passenger and cargo volume. These features confirmed to me that Prius with its Hybrid Synergy Drive should be my choice. When I put in price in, it remained Prius.

Overall, the Honda Civic Hybrid is a good car with a slight edge on looks. The HCH used to handle better then the Prius, but with the new tuned, sport suspension in the 2007 Prius, this advantage has been neutralized. As you reported, your new 2006 HCH is not delivering the stellar Fuel Economy (FE) of either your old 2003 HCH or todays Prius. The FE shortfall of the new HCHs, and the excellent FE, function and features delivered in the Prius, is why Prius was the clear choice for me.

Now that I have a Prius, and have driven it, I can confirm these FE, technology and driver, passenger and cargo hauling benefits.

I know that you and your wife are Honda loyalists, and long time Civic and Odyssey owner-drivers. My wife and I are both Kinda Fonda Honda too, and have owned a few. I once owned a 1992 Civic CX that regularly delivered 45 MPG Highway with me driving at nominal 65+/- mph freeway/Interstate travel speeds. The FE of that fuel-sipping Civic CX became my baseline for comparing the FE and technical pros/cons, benefits, and advantages of hybrid cars.

If sticking with Honda had been my criteria when buying this time, I would have purchased a conventionally powered 2007 Honda Civic. The MSRP for the regular Civic is some $6800 lower than the HCH, it has more power and there is not a substantial difference between the actual MPG delivered by the regular, conventionally powered $15,810.00 Civic, and the $22,600 Civic Hybrid.

Happy Hypermiling --- JP

In general hybrids are not worth it unless you do the type of driving that hybrids are designed for....stop and go.

In general hybrids are not worth it unless you do the type of driving that hybrids are designed for....stop and go.

Paintguru --- Until just recently, hybrids were selling with at least a $2K-$4K premiums above MSRP, and there were none on the lots. This has changed. I just purchased a Prius hybrid from my local Toyota dealer at 7.5% below sticker price. I was unable to do this for years, and even as recently as four months ago. As I wrote in my earlier post, the Hybrid-Buyer Feeding Frenzy seems to have ebbed in recent months --- at least where I live. Independent automobile industry experts say this current lull in hybrid demand is only a temporary one.

Hybrids are worth it if you want to save gasoline. They are especially worth it for the stop and go city/urban/suburban driving to which you refer. Even for Freeway/Interstate driving, the Prius and Honda Hybrids will give you at least the inherent ~45 MPG FE of the conventional 4-cylinder gasoline engines that are used to power their hybrid systems.

I purchased a 2007 Prius less then two weeks ago, and took it home with a full 11.9 gallon tank of gas. Whenever I can, I have been driving the car since I have owned it using "Pule and Glide," and other hybrid hypermiling driving techniques. So far, I have driven it for 122.1 stop & go around-town miles, and the fuel gauge is still pegged on FULL. I will not know with precision what my actual-measured average MPG is until I refill the gas tank to FULL and do the math --- but judging from the instantaneous MPG readings, the EPA promised 60 MPG looks like it will be a shoe-in. JP

I still like my 2005 Prius. After 60,000 miles I am getting 45 mpg in the winter and 54-57 in the summer (summer trips over 3 hours are consistently over 55 mpg at 70 mph).

My previous car got 26 mpg (similar size)so I figure I have saved 1100 gallons of gas. At $2.50/gal that would have been $2750 saved.

I blame the car heater for the winter cost. The Prius still uses exhaust heat to heat the interior. If I turn off the heat, the engine will shut down at traffic signals.

My gas milage is lower with stop and go, 43/48 mpg (winter/summer).

RoryWohl --- 1,004 Prius owner-drivers have posted their actual average MPGs to the Real Hybrid Database at Green Hybrid. These reported MPGs range from a high of 71.8 to a low of 29.2. The average MPG for all 1004 folks is 47.6 MPG. So the 45-50 MPG you are getting is both typical and great fuel economy for your commutes that include travel at Interstate speeds.

Your 45-50 MPG is essentially the basic fuel economy delivered by the conventional 1.5 Liter DOHC 16-valve VVT-i 4-cylinder that serves as the prime-mover for the Prius Hybrid Synergy Drive, plus an add-on 12%-25% bonus FE contribution from the hybrid function (i.e. Basic: [40-45] MPG + Hybrid Bonus: [5-10 MPG] = 45-50+/-).

I assume your wife is driving the Prius on your daily commutes, much like she drove your old conventionally powered Subaru. She could gain incremental MPG improvement if she would work to attune her hybrid driving techniques by incorporating and applying fuel-sipping hypermiling elements, like Pulse & Glide and Warp Stealth, into it. Learning where the operating sweet spot of the engine is as well as maintaining cold tire pressures at a higher 42/40 PSI range versus 35/33 would also contribute FE rewards to your daily 70 mile commutes.

FYI Maximizing Mileage in a Toyota Prius: http://www.hybridcars.com/gas-saving-tips/maximizing-mileage-toyota-prius.html

Keep a good and accurate trip log on your 2,500 mile Prius w/ Max-Luggage & Dog Load round trip to Florida in March so you can report your measured, actual average MPG for the whole trip back to us hybrid hypermilers here in Buzztown when you return. JP