Buzz Out Loud Lounge forum: MATCH-OFF: HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray

That doesn't make sense, there is a lot more detail in 1080p and simply up-converting is not a magic trick it'll make it look better but it doesn't add resolution. 1080p is still a whole generation ahead of any DVD derived video. You can not make up for a 1.5 million difference in pixel count no matter what tricks you pull. This is just ridiculous.

I am already enjoying HD with a HDTV card in my PC and a USB HDTV NANO stick with my laptop. My new 19inch Wide Screen LCD monitor is good enough to view HD media. I have recently bought a HD camcorder and the quality and definition of my video footage is unbelievable. Though I do not have a HD Plasma screen yet, I can still view the HD footage on my Wide Screen LCD.

Ohhh.. that brings up a good point. Wasn't Sony the creator of SACD? That sure did go far... You're actually the only person I know that claims of a sizable library containing SACD's.

I don't know which will win, I'm still hoping for c) digital delivery, but I have to agree with Dvorak (www.dvorak.org/blog), in that until download speeds greatly increase, it just isn't a viable delivery system for HD content. And don't even start with the "bittorrent will solve everything". It won't. And I'm not going to spend 5 bucks for a digital rental (for 24 hours) and then subsidize the movie studio with my upstream bandwidth.

I'm thinking that HD-DVD may pull this out. Sony continue to shoot themselves, this time with the crappy implementation of BluRay in the PS3. In addition to having no remote, and a very bad control system, the PS3 won't downconvert. If you have a 720p HDTV, and the BluRay content is in 1080p, the unit can't convert the signal. It outputs (get ready) 480p. So your awesome PS3 shows the movie in DVD resolution.

Both, of course, are hobbled by draconian DRM. However, digital delivery will be, too.

"I'm thinking that HD-DVD may pull this out. Sony continue to shoot themselves, this time with the crappy implementation of BluRay in the PS3. In addition to having no remote, and a very bad control system, the PS3 won't downconvert. If you have a 720p HDTV, and the BluRay content is in 1080p, the unit can't convert the signal. It outputs (get ready) 480p. So your awesome PS3 shows the movie in DVD resolution."

This is actually incorrect (though it's true that Sony did screw up the scaling issue). If you have a 720p TV, you're fine - the PS3 will output HD games and films, whether 720p or 1080p, at 720p; this is selectable in the Settings menu. The problem arises when you have an early HDTV, mostly CRTs, that can only output 480i/p and 1080i, but not 720p. In that case, 720p or 1080p will be output at 480p rather than 1080i, due to a lack of an internal hardware scaler on the PS3. So early adopters - people more likely to pick up a PS3 - are SOL w/out a new (Sony?) TV. Though there are obviously more important things going on in the CNET community at the moment, just thought I'd point that out in case someone held off buying something for xmas based on this.

From the reviews I have read on CNET and ProjecterCentral and the like the reviews have indicated that the HD-DVD has a better picture. Maybe it's because HD-DVD uses MPEG4 instead of MPEG2. I don't know. But what I do know is that we as consumers should boycott both of them.

I was an early adopter of HDTV and all my audio/video equipment is set up for component video signals and switching. It has been announced that both formats (and probably eventually HD cable boxes) can only output HD signals via a digital output like HDMI connector. That means the thousands of people like me that have bought TV's and projectors that were sold to us as "high definition televisions" are now being told that they are useless for watching high definition DVD's and probably eventually all high definition content. This should be illegal and I hope there is a class action lawsuit for the thousands of people that are now being told that their television is now incompatible with high definition. This is absolutely a disgrace and I hope both formats fail until this issue is resolved. This is the reward we are given for being early adopters. We are treated like criminals!

Microsoft rumor turned fact - Microsoft (as they so often do) changed camps from Blu-ray to HD-DVD because Sony decided to use JAVA(Sun Microsystems)based authoring tools instead of Microsoft XML tools for various components. Some of these items are the VC-1 codec compression developed by Microsoft on HD-DVD instead of the older MPEG-2 used by the initial Blu-ray.

Sony screwed their own pooch here. The initial HD-DVD movies were in dual-layered format HD-DVD because even the "great" coding of MS can not manage to fit an HD movie on a 15 GB disc. The initial Blu-ray movies were released on a single-layer (25 GB) using older technology MPEG-2. (Not sure who made this call since the movies were made by the studios. Could have been just not understanding the standard.) Newer Blu-ray movies are supposed to be dual-layered and MPEG-4 or H.264/AVC codec compatible. This should address the quality difference between the initial movies distributed.

Not many movies available. Both camps are projecting 100+ for this Christmas. That puts more pressure on the HD-DVD camp since they only have 3 studios producing movies. Two of those studios are producing the same movies in Blu-ray. By my count, that leaves only a single studio producing HD-DVD content exclusively. While all but one studio produces Blu-ray. A very dominant advantage.

PS3 and XBOX 360: Blu-ray comes standard with the PS3. You have to buy an HD-DVD or potentially maybe a Blu-ray for XBOX 360 so I don't really see this as adding to the HD-DVD camp by any great amount. Once Sony gets their distribution issues ironed out, much like MS had to with XBOX 360, will the PS3 or the XBOX 360 be king of the games? The winner doesn't need to be clear here. Even a 40%(PS3)- 40%(XBOX)- 20% Wii would provide more benefit to Blu-ray than HD-DVD because not all XBOX users will get that add on.

Blu-ray has more staying power because of the technological advantages. It can scale higher easier. I believe someone earlier mentioned the 8-layered 200 GB disc prototype while I have only heard of a triple-layer 45 GB prototype HD-DVD. A dual-layered Blu-ray holds more than a triple-layered HD-DVD. This great capacity has a huge impact with the PC world. With holographic discs expected around 2012 only the Blu-ray has the capacity to stay around. While we are on the topic of PCs, currently the only way to record either a Blu-ray or HD-DVD is on PCs.

Downloading HD movies is unreasonable at this time. There are still people who use dial-up, while these people aren't likely to be early adopters they should remind us what downloading is like. We used to hate downloading files until high-speed connections to the internet from DSL and cable were made available. Imagine if you will how long it would take to download a 30 GB movie using your current connection speed. It would be like taking a step back in time. Providing the pain that we once associated with our pitiful 54K dial-up speed.

OMG. This is a novella. At this time I would have to pick Blu-ray. But only by a nose, because the buying public is fickle. It doesn't really care about the advantage of one medium over the other. Money speaks volumes. We are cheap. Time to quit.

I can see the clear winner in this war and the deciding factor is the same as who settled the VHS-Betamax war.

!.!.!.PORN.!.!.!

Sony has sworn off the porn industry from using blu-ray so like the VHS-Beta war porn will make HD-DVD the winner in this war as well.

The porn industry, whether we like it or not, is the fore runner of technology.

Q - I was curious on which side you were on? HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?

A - NOTHING MORE SONY Boo Hoo Ray Included! I will do without a HD-DVD recorder until I find sufficient HD video to warrant having one and the dust settles.

Why?

Sony get too cute and adds too many propitiatory tweaks into its consumer audio/video produces, Sony likes to control consumers and like to hid limitations it decides to use. Combine this with a miserable record for customer/product support for current products and discontinuing a product after a short time so they can terminate any support. This increases the end user cost and limits the useful time of many of their products so I believe Bloop-Ray will follow the pattern. dont give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

I bought a Sony TV (Trinitron) because it was the best video for a commercial product but two years later I could not get parts, even from Sony, to repair it. All the parts were Sony proprietary and were not being made or available anywhere. Trash one expensive Sony TV!

The Betamax /VHS debate was another go around. The lesser format quality emerged the winner because of customer friendliness cost! Sony Beta was a better picture but the bang per buck wasnt there when comparing the two. Initial cost of the unit and tapes were hard to find as well as higher in price for equal presentation. The market was not very accepting of the Sony Beta format when it came to the pocketbook. The ostentatious marketing of Sony failed to understand GIGO garbage in garbage out so the superior format was lost on the consumer that had little access to video for recording. Most wanted to record broadcast TV shows to watch at a later time, since Video rental stores did not exist yet and cable TV was in its infancy. VCRs were battling for electronic toys market shares as personal computers were just coming into retail stores for the first time and the starting price as about the same for either toy, about $800 -$2k US dollars in 1978.

In 1998 I bought the latest & greatest Sony CD recorder bundle for my Win 95 computer ($600+) and I never got one good CD burn from it before using it as a burnt offering to the computer landfill gods. The blivit (crap in a bag) software and NO support didnt in dear me to Sony much.

The original Walkman was a big seller but has evolved into a great piece of hardware but the MP3 CD walkman was unusable with the Sony software that came with it and they NEVER could get it to work on my PC. Fortunately I was able to use third party MP3 software to make CD for it. The new Walkman, available now, is rendered almost useless by that same archaic malfunctioning software called SonicStage that makes the new walkmans very UN-user-friendly for anyone and unusable for music without a computer running their proprietary software. Again Sonys attempt to control the user and limit the usefulness of the product by the consumer.
We have Sony music to thank for the un-removable root-kits it secretly included on music audio CDs that compromised the security of PCs and their DVD players with security chips that will only let certain DVDs play. My $200 Sony DVD player works on fewer video disks (disk not found) than my off brand $35 DVD player and the cheepie plays MP3 DVDs. The Sony will only play a CD in MP3 format.

BTW Sony developed and marketed an analog version of HDTV for use in Japan but scrapped it totally after the US digital version was designed and accepted by the FCC in the USA. If Sony had their way High Definition TV would be analog not digital - sports fans.

Let the record show that for me I am boycotting ANYTHING that has the Sony name associated with it. Anti open architecture is an understatement for SONY!
Designed obsolescence is one thing but consumer products designed for user sabotage is inept company policy. I do not intend to encourage or support ANY of Sonys future ventures to take advantage of the consumer electronic market. Maybe the Chinese will enter the competition when a use is found and the Markey is ready

Those of you that want to encourage Sony in continue experimentation with customer control product are welcome to your own absurd opinion but dont try and drag me along without a fight!

P.S. The switch from the current analog to digital TV was announced, for the USA, by the FCC about the time Windows 95 was released and the first Pentium PCs hit the market. Public access to the internet was a new idea then also so anyone that has bough a new TV in the last 10 years should have clue that HDTV existed and the change was coming (to the US, anyway).

Do a net search and stop guessing!

Check FCC Consumer Facts for some digital TV truths.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.html

That's a rant and a half.

-Ryan

I work for a manufacturer of Blu-Ray. I have no idea who will win. The porn industry can swing a format as happened with VHS vs Beta. There are more hardware and software backers behind Blu-Ray but it has a problem. Cost. Blu-Ray costs more at retail by almost $400. Price will be a deciding factor for many. More PC folks back HD-DVD. This is a personality war between two giants, Toshiba and Sony. Both sides are currently losing money on the HD DVD format be it Blu-Ray or HDDVD. Toshiba is betting the farm on HDDVD.

THe transmission of HD content is NOT mandatory in Feb 2009. The transmission of DIGITAL signals IS mandatory in Feb 2009. Digital does not equal HD. It is better than SD today but still not HD or even in the 16:9 format.

Capacity is a nonissue now for several reasons:
1. HDDVD Just Unveiled their new 51gb disc.
2. An Uncompressed 1080P movie takes over a terabyte of space. With the amount of compression going on 20 or 30gb won't make a big difference.

I think capacity is a moot point compared to cost and reliability. BluRay was an attempt to push the hardware laser technology, especially as the software at the time was weak (MPEG2 vs. MPEG4/DIVX). The main limiting factor in compression now has been processing power, but that has gotten cheaper faster than laser and error correction (due to mechanical issues and heat). I think HD-DVD will benefit from more compression. The higher use of 1/4 pixel moves will only increase MPEG4's ability with even better image quality (may be same compression, but less loss).
The next generation of either one of them is a bit of an unknown. It could be more layers or it could be a bluer frequency laser to get more packed in. The next generation should easily be able to read older discs, so I think we need to look at this as a continuum and not an end-point.

Just watched a CNET video this morning on that subject. It seems that the "Porno" industry may have a large say in the mix. The article claimed they were the reason for Beta/VHS decision: cheaper to make. The current scene is that Sony (Blu-Ray) policy forbids commercial reproduction of Porno. So they will definately go HD-DVD. If there are any more "restrictions" from Sony - well, you can see the how the battle will go!