Desktops: first build: thoughts on parts?
agreed, AMD is the best choice by far
by matzalso - 1/28/05 3:17 AM In reply to: AMD... by GMartin2Rgood choice of going for AMD. absolutely true that they currently have Intel beaten. remains to be seen though, when Intel do finally release their 64 bit line in the coming months(which they happened to copy from AMD).
the MSI board looks ok, although personally, i have always prefered Giga-byte or Asus for my systems. Gigabyte do have quite a good lineup out now for the nforce4 chipset, if you haven't checked them out already.
the cpu's that you are talking about using in this system though (3400+, 3700+), are 754pin socket processors. the MSI and any other current board for the Athlon64 line uses the 939pin socket. 754 is now for slower Sempron cpu's. The Nforce4 is a 939 only chipset. a good retailer should spot this when you purchase it though and correct you, if you're lucky.
IMHO, i think the 3500+ cpu is the best value for money cpu to get, unless you are going to upgrade this component later, then you could save some cash and get the 3200+. the performance increase is certainly worth the extra amount though on the higher model processor.
happy system building.
Matt
Ditch The Intel
by D.G.Snype - 1/28/05 5:01 AM In reply to: first build: thoughts on parts? by GMartin2RPlan ahead....
I would leave the 32 bit realm and go for an AMD Athlon 64, Socket 939.
Judging by what your spending on vid card you must do some gaming. I wouldn't put any money in a CPU that is basically obsolete before you get it. There's a lot of agrument over the PIV verses the 64.
I am currently running a 64 and it will humble ANY PIV out there.
You are shopping in the right place. The best prices and service.
Have Fun & Good Luck
Specs for the motherboard...
by janfnord - 1/28/05 5:13 AM In reply to: first build: thoughts on parts? by GMartin2RBe aware that a number of motherboeard no longer come with a game port. If you have a large investment in game controllers that use the gameport and does not work with USB-to-Gameport adapters (some Microsoft Sidewinder products) you will need extra hardware (soundcard with gameport).
MSI does not support the game port on their motherboards, while a number other brands do have support. Few have the actual connector (DB-15) on the backplane, most have a header so you easily can add the DB-15 connector.
As for processor I would go for Socket 939 and 1-2 GB of RAM - and buy the fastest AMD processor I could get for the remaining dollars after adding the other components like video card (probably go for PCI Express).
The reason for putting most money in the other components except the processor is that the falling prices for processors make it more attractive to upgrade in a year or two compared to other components (possibly exepting the video card - therefore I would choose a board with PCI Express)
Jeff
No GamePort-Not really an issue
by clem2270 - 1/28/05 1:44 PM In reply to: Specs for the motherboard... by janfnordJeff, I don't mean to be rude or to "put-down" your advice. But your statement
" Be aware that a number of motherboeard no longer come with a game port. If you have a large investment in game controllers that use the gameport and does not work with USB-to-Gameport adapters (some Microsoft Sidewinder products) you will need extra hardware (soundcard with gameport)."
Granted I don't have any idea of what kind of games you play, nor do I know what games, GMartin2R plays. In my opinion the Game port / MIDI port is no longer needed. I have been playing games on my PC's for more than 6 years now; and ever since the developement of the USB interface, I've stopped using the game port ( not that I used it that much in the first place ). And as far as I know none of my friends have used their game ports either.
So, a computer that doesn't come with a game port should be like a human being having their appendix, removed, its not something that your going to miss.
Also, GMartin2R; spec'd out with his computer parts list a CL Audigy sound card and as far I know have game port headers on the PCB and the matching backplate interface to fit the header.
In all other regards I agree with your suggestions Jeff.
JC
Challenge your thinking...
by ahhhaaa - 1/28/05 7:34 AM In reply to: first build: thoughts on parts? by GMartin2RMy reaction is that you are spending a lot of money on gear with a very short half-life before becoming very cheap obsolescent gear, just as we are looking at 64-bit commercial machines arriving. You might want to rethink building a gaming machine as your first machine. Are you going to overclock, etc? Willing to fry some components? (I'd consider putting all these bucks into a higher end display device, myself, but that's just me...!:])
Also, VIA is introducing their NANO-ITX board in 2 months- 5" square & capable of using Flash memory as a hyperfast HD & running off 12V- how about a gaming carputer?
Build something really different!!!
Saving money but build a nice system
by nschaefer308 - 1/28/05 10:02 AM In reply to: Challenge your thinking... by ahhhaaaI have friends all the time wanting good systems but they don't have a lot of money.
The problem with going with the 64 is the price of the processor plus the Motherboard and memory. Within another year you can pick these up for half the price today.
The question is how fast do you want it.
There was a comment on the Gigabyte mainboard that was true. You can save money by going with the GeForce Pro2 and a 3200+ so that you can upgrade the processor later. The 3200+ is the base for the 400mhz FSB I believe. This particular motherboard has the 133mhz ITE Raid for 4 hard drives. Check Best Buy for rebate specials on the WD or Seagate 120GB drives. I picked up a total of 4 120GB drives for 29.99 each. The SATA drives right now are adapted IDE drives. You can pick up the same adapters to convert the IDE to SATA (which this motherboard has) so that you can have additional space.
I can run doom 3 and any other game on my gigabyte mb with the 6800 nVidia card very nicely in either my 2600+ (333mhz FSB) with 1GB mem or the 3200+ (400mhz FSB)with 512mb mem. I didn't bother with the Audigy 2 because the sound on the motherboard would still do all of the processing that I needed to build DVD movies, convert and alter.
If money is a factor then drop it down to a 2600+ w/333FSB. Hardware costs will significantly drop and still enable you to upgrade later.
Otherwise, double your costs and build a monster! This is just my 5 cents worth...
12V?
by skippyd333 - 2/2/05 11:41 AM In reply to: Challenge your thinking... by ahhhaaaIsn't that going backward with technology. While most computers are going down in voltage to save energy and heat in your proceesor and case. with a 12v you would need a 24" box fan to cool it down.
OS
by mastman - 1/28/05 11:08 AM In reply to: first build: thoughts on parts? by GMartin2RWith the nice graphics and sounds cards you plan to use, why not install Windows Media Center? Only about $130 at newegg.com. I opted to buy an HP with WMC rather than build 'cause the $ was too good to pass. Yeah, I know it's HP, but I've already cleaned out the crapware and bumped the RAM to 1.5 GB. The Media Ctr stuff is pretty cool though.
Another post for the AMD 64 solution
by clem2270 - 1/28/05 11:49 AM In reply to: first build: thoughts on parts? by GMartin2RMy apologies for the long post.
Intel based is not the best bang for your buck. I agree that a year or two ago, the Intel solution might have been the proc of choice if you wanted the “absolute” performance king and didn’t care about how much it cost. But since AMD has developed and released to the general public their desktop 64bit technology based processor’s; there is no longer any reason to stick with the outdated technology that Intel is pushing. Just do a search for processor & Mobo benchmark’s. (I would include some links for you to look at, but I’m writing this during a break at work)
The following are the parts I would order. (as listed by newegg; Jan 28, 2005)
Rosewill Black Model "R114A Black" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16811147006
$49.99
Optorite 16X DVD+/-RW Dual Layer Drive Model DD1603, Retail
Item# N82E16827182031
$59.00
Mitsumi USB Digital Card Reader/Writer W/FD (Black)INTERNAL, Model FA404A/404M
Item# N82E16821104104
$27.00 ( Floppy drive???; Since you have an older system, why buy a new floppy drive; this particular model has an integrated USB card reader; and because it has a black bezel to match the new case. )
Western Digital 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model WD2500JD, OEM Drive Only
Item# N82E16822144154
$148.00
Western Digital Raptor 36.7GB 10,000RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model WD360GD, OEM Drive Only
Item# N82E16822144200
$113.12ea X2 = $226.24 RAID 0 config
( Hard Drives; this decision is debatable, as to which route to take. Personally I love my dual WD Raptor drives. But since is new system is going to do more than play games, it probably wouldn’t hurt to get a large drive for data storage. But if you have the money, I would get dual 74gb Raptors. With the Mobo chosen here “K8N Neo4 Platinum”, you have a total of 8 SATA ports to connect drives to. )
Corsair XMS Extreme Memory Speed Series, (Twin Pack) 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 - Retail
Item# N82E16820145450
$189.00
NEC/MITSUBISHI ASLCD71V 17" LCD Monitor -RETAIL
Item# N82E16824002253
$259.00 ( Why stick a behemoth 19” CRT monitor on your desk, when you can get the same performance with a LCD monitor and not sacrifice your desktop. If you have concerns with playing games and watching DVD’s, then rest assured; as long as you don’t go cheapo on the LCD screen, you shouldn’t experience any problems. I have used an LCD screen at my LAN parties for the last 2 ½ years without noticing any graphical problems. )
MSI "K8N Neo4 Platinum" NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra Chipset Motherboard For AMD Socket 939 CPU -RETAIL
Item# N82E16813130484
$159.00 ( Actually any Mobo based on the nForce 4 chipset should be a very nice board, but be sure to get the ultra or SLI, as these are currently the only nForce4 based boards that support the PCI express technology. )
AMD Athlon 64 3200+, 512KB L2 Cache, Socket 939 64-bit Processor - Retail
Item# N82E16819103502
$239.00
Microsoft Windows XP Professional with Service Pack SP1a - OEM
Item# N82E16837102143
$153.95 ( I am one of the believers that has yet to upgrade to SP2, due to the amount of problems I hear people complain of, that is why I picked this version )
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS GAMER Limited Edition PCI Sound Card, Model "SB0350" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16829102171
$116.99 ( unless your going to connect a complete surround sound speaker system to your computer this card is probably over-kill; the built on sound that comes with nForce4 based Mobo should be all that you would need. )
ASUS nVIDIA GeForce 6600GT Video Card, 128MB GDDR3, 128-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, PCI-Express, Model "EN6600GT/TD/128" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16814121178
$223.00
So, the system I picked out it not a “cutting edge”, but it does support all the new technology and your investment should be reasonably safe for the next 12 – 18 months ( probably 24 months ); then if needed; you should be able to upgrade the major system components ( proc.; add ram; new video card; more drive space; etc. ) reasonably easily and inexpensively. Also I know that the total cost of this system is probably way out of your price range; but you mentioned you were looking at NewEgg.com, so I wanted to give you some alternative parts to look at. And if you shop around, you should be able to find better prices on most of these parts
If you chose the Intel setup you listed, the parts you picked are almost at the very topend of what the technology is going to be capable of handling and any future upgrades will require you to purchase entirely new equipment. But with the AMD 64 ( socket 939 ) solution, there should be plenty of room between their current processors and technology and the future, when there is another shift in platforms.
Also, you didn’t specify which Mobo you picked out, but I’m guessing that its one of the models that would support the DDR2 memory spec. Granted this new, emerging technology shows lots of promise for the future. The benchmarks that I have read, point out that the minimal performance increase with DDR2 over DDR is not currently worth the expense.
“also i thought i remembered somewhere reading about someone using a HD as ram. is that possible or is my memory faulty?”
In reply to this question, you are correct ( to a point ). MS Windows by default uses your HD for temporary memory and its known as either the Swap file or the Page file. But no matter how fast your drive is, it will never be as fast as your computer RAM. Harddrive speed is measured in ms (Milli-seconds) and RAM is ns ( Nano-seconds )
Also, I don’t mean to “dog” Newegg; but I wouldn’t order all my parts from one retailer; I would shop around. There are a number of online retailers, who will sell you a Mobo & Proc combo and test them prior to shipping. I particularly like: zipzoomfly.com; newegg.com; tigerdirect.com; ecost.com; & monarchcomputer.com; to name a few of the sites I like to purchase from.
But like you mentioned, no matter which route you decide; your going to notice an incredible performance increase from the “old” system to your new system.
One other word of advice; do not try to save parts from the old system and try to integrate them into your new system. Just build the new system get a reliable antivirus solution installed ( Trend Micro’s “ PC-cillin Internet Security suite 2005 “) and import your data from the old computer. Then give (sell)the old system, or keep it as a back up PC. I have seen a number of new custom built (home built) systems crippled by using salvaged parts.
reply to new posts...
by GMartin2R - 1/28/05 3:48 PM In reply to: Another post for the AMD 64 solution by clem2270wow quite a bit of activity here lately... this'll be a conglomeration post with response to bits and pieces from all the new posts. just so you knwo...
first off the only thing i was going to integrade from an older system was the floppy drive and maybe a super old cd-rom for just cd playing capacity and use the dvd-rw for most of my aps that would need any speed until later when adding in a 48xcd-rw or the like...
as for mobo's initially i just looking at an intel 915p, but when looking into the amd route i'm thinking a msi k8n neo platnium. thought the nforce 4 ultra chipset looked pretty good.
actually the system you picked out was pretty similar to what i was looking at save for the 6600 instead of the 6800, the 2 HD's, and the cpu speed. what i'm planning is for the most part to do what i did with my current system. buy it and run it til the new tech software needs more than it as a min then upgrade/get a new one. i havent added a thing to my p3 system that i got several years ago... oh and i noticed the HD's were OEM. is it better to go that way and then have to get all the cables too or go retail and get all the cables? currently i'm looking at a seagate 7200 160gig sata for $139 retail. what i originally had in mind was get a single one of those and have it partitioned into a 2-3 drives. one for OS install, one for my mp3 collection and other doc type files adn the final one for other apps. so something like a 15/15/130 split or something. the idea of a 10k drive is eomewhat intriging though. would it be worth it to go 10k or would i only notice the difference if i was used to running 7.2 k drives?
Virus scaner was going to continue using AVG 7 free... been using it so that seems to work fine.
as for monitor, i use a corner desk actually so as far as i'm concerned it can stick out almost as far as it needs to so that's not an issue. i've got a 17"crt right now which is fine but i figured if i was going to update the whole comp why not go up in size with the mon too. read somewhere that the refresh rate of the 19" is more likely to be easier on the eyes than most 17" crts... anyhow that was my thiking there...
Umm, someone brought up the lack of a gameport. there's only a couple apps that it would at all hurt. i do have an old sidewinder joystick but also have the usb converter for it so i can use it that way. the only bad part about that is that i lose functionality of a button, but that app is falcon 4.0. when i add the audigy 2 in i'm pretty sure that would ahve the gameport that i'd need if it was really an issue. i would imagine too that there's some sort of a converter out there for usb anyway.
as to not needing a fast system because of a lack of broadband, where's the balence there? obviously my current one (733) isnt sufficient anymore, but if i'm looking for example at a 3500+ (or similar 939pin cpu), would that be overkill for the current gen of games and the early next gen of games, or should i scale back to a 2800+ or so just because i lack a broadband connection?
Motherboard makers: aside from the features put in and what chipset is used how to you tell who's good and who's not? that's the one of the few things i havent quite been able to catch onto yet. gigabyte, Asus, abit, and msi seem to be the ones i see the most of but how do you tell who's better when they're based on the same chipset to start with?
All the boards i'm looking at currently had pci-express support so that's another thing that has driven the cost upward somewhat. a 6800gt being $500 instead of $400 for the agp 8x...
as for overclocking; i wasnt planning on doing any. maybe at most 10% but for the most part i was going to run the components at spec. been interested in overclocking but havent quite been able to understand how it's done so at the moment the plan isnt to do any.
another thing i've debated about was waiting on the audigy 2 and utilizing the built in sound for a while so i could cut a corner there adn knock off another $120 to use elsewhere or soemthing like that.
OS: never really considered media center as i dont know that much about it. far as i'm concered a standard win interface will do fine. i dont need any special build in media players or anything as i plan on installing the ones i currently use once built. plus having xp pro does give me the flexability if i do go to a broadband eventually to have some addit'l firewall; least that's what i've heard. couple that wit the nforce 4 chipset and it's something that mihgt not be used but would at least be available. why should i consider MC?
i've also looked quite a bit into prebuild and custon built ones but price wise it alwatys ends up being close to if not more expensive than just doing it myself.
side note; who all is reputable enough to do business with? i've been pleased with newegg and tigerdirect but aside from those 2 dont know enough about other sellers. found tigerdirect from a friends mag and newegg was a message board reccomend. by comparison newegg is the better priced; plus i like the quick ship time
another mobo to consider!
by spideriixs - 1/29/05 2:44 PM In reply to: reply to new posts... by GMartin2RHave you checked out the DFI LanParty UT Series of mobos? I muddled thru a ton of raving reviews... finally settled upon the UT nf3 250gb. With a newer model having hit the markets, the UT nf3 250gb can be found for less than $110. It's suppose to be an overclockers/gamers dream!
Decisions til da cows come home!.
by daviepoo - 1/31/05 6:11 PM In reply to: reply to new posts... by GMartin2RHi GMartin2R;
Both you,"skippie d333" and Et-al, seem to have the situation in order. I (we), thank you for taking the time to despense knowledge to us great unwashed masses.
I am reading,taking notes, looking for common denominators and such stuff. the cutting edge of any technology is old tomorrow.
I started my "next machine" back in Nov. I want a portable and reliable unit that I will use only for Imageing processes and sound files. Photoshop runs well on my current system but I have times where the delay/lag (12-20 sec.) is not good.
I have started with a "Antec,Aria MTX case, w/ 300w power supply. I don't know if this PS is of the quality of the products they sell for large units. If I run into heat/voltage problems They may provide a replacement or "PCpower and cooling" may be of some help.
I purchased a "MSI" KM4M-V(socket A), board from New Egg, One of the primary considerations was the availability of having 4 internal USB terminals for the
image card(s)and USB terminals on the front.
I plan on an additional sound card, I am not sure if I need a high end video card but I wish to end up with using two monitors,(one for image,the other for PS work pallets.
My question,,, Help me with(AMD)CPU choices. They go from $45.00 to $4500.00. I think that I have given ya all enough data with regards to the end use of this machine,any responses are welcome.
The issue of going for the lowest available product choice is never a wise decision. Was it John Glenn who commented, "We are sitting on a bomb that was built by the lowest bidder".
Thank you Daviepoo.
3ks if possible
by GMartin2R - 1/31/05 11:04 PM In reply to: Decisions til da cows come home!. by daviepooguess the simplistic answer would be go as fast as you could afford. as far as image processing and sound goes, you might want to do some looking around at benchmarks on intel setups if you havent already done that. intel does do better than AMD when it comes to those sorts of applications, if i remember correctly. it's in gaming where AMD's really shine. if you want to go AMD though, either a 754 pin 3400+ or 939 pin 3500+ or above would probably be best. this given of course the rest of the machine is up to speed with that(no pc133 ram etc).
i think definitely try to stay in the 3k range. dont know how high you can go in the 3ks with a socket A but the higher the better.
Looks Good
by mcgilbdd - 1/29/05 2:35 PM In reply to: first build: thoughts on parts? by GMartin2RI am using the sound card you mentioned, and all other components look like you are right where you need to be. Dual layer disk are expensive at the moment, but maybe they will come down some. The only question I ask is whether you REALLY need that much video card. Now days, most $180 cards will keep up just fine. Of course, if you really do serious gaming, and have the money, more is better. Consider this , though. Most cards are outdated in 6-8 months (although they still work fine) and the expensive ones keep getting cheaper. I prefer to buy the slightly older (not cheaper) ones, and just upgrade every year or two.
The money you save could be enough to go to 1 Gig of DDR, and that will give you speed, and a nice cushion when working with photos, movies, ect. Buy the best (fastest) memory you can afford, it pays in the long run if you really want that little extra speed. The memory speed will make the video, and gaming slighly faster. I am refering to the CAS-2 memory clock settings in bios. You can't configure it in bios if your memory don't support it. Check the specs of the mainboard you are buying to be sure it supports the faster memory, but I feel that it probably should.
re:Looks Good
by GMartin2R - 1/29/05 5:32 PM In reply to: Looks Good by mcgilbddwell if i go with an amd board there dont seem to be too many that support ddr any faster than 400 if i remember right. the one i'm looking at supports 266/333/400 for the type of ddr so i think that's pretty much the ceiling; least for now.
VC: i've actually got almost the opposite philosophy; why not spend lots for a great one now then by the time it's completely outdated (4-5 years) it would be time to probably start over again. hence why most of the components listed are at least in the upper echelon of the quality and technological edge. probably runs about the same total cost in the long run; least in that area. i like pretty much just having something that will do the job until it no longer can. if i can make a TNT2 M64 last upwards of 4-5 years which i have, what are the odds a 6800gt would last the same amount of time if not longer before the ram size and chipset are no longer even able to handle the min requrements? good chance as far as i'm concerned... that's my take on things anyway. 2 $250 cards over 4 years or so is pretty much the same as a $500 one. it's a thought though, i'll grant that. was considering the X700 series or x800pro but some digging pointed to the 6800gt being better than the x800 and seemed to fit my more long term prefrences.
*shrugs* i'll do some more shopping... figure i'll look into the 6600 a bit. if its close maybe i will go that direction for now... which might clear up enough room to keep the audigy involved... hmm, i'll check around...
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