Speakeasy: Moral values...some questions

Dragon: "Its all propaganda"

Some is, no doubt; a hustle for some charity on the one hand or 'fumbling in the dark for understanding' on the other.

The Bible agrees with you that "Of course things happen": Ecc 9:11. But I hope there's more to God than waiting for me to cry 'so he can cry with me!'

In fact, the Bible talks about a God who originally set up a system with no problems at all, the famous Garden of Eden in Gen 1 & 2. It's always interested me that the story is true - it exists - even if we see the Bible as myth. (As I pointed out elsewhere, it's "true" that Moby Dick is the whale, not the man, although Moby Dick. is fiction.) In other words, "in the beginning" there is no talk of heaven or hell: Man was meant to live ideally on earth forever. The only mention of death is at Gen 2:17, where it's conditional on disobedience, so obedience meant living forever. Unless you see God as a practical joker, in which case why discuss him at all!

The writer of the link you posted seems one of those who believes we live in 'Hell on earth' until the Father 'takes us home;' meanwhile we have to endure one calamity after another as proof that He loves us! That's a common belief, but: In "real life" we call that child abuse, and we prosecute! At the very least, those people need a better [mythical?] God to worship.

I've always liked Isa 55:10,11 because it's the way an almighty God should talk. Do you think it also implies he should find a way out of humans' present situation - a way back to Paradise? Or do you think Darwin and Bush and Blair (the Trinity?) will do it?

Regards, Doug in New Mxico

Dragon: Re: No paradise

Of course, science hasn't given us an Eden; just a primordial ooze, but the 1953 'ooze' experiments of Stanley Miller et al. no longer are seen as, um, "gospel." Science also implies that we're walking a path to some human ideal, but there's not much evidence of that on the news or Speakeasy. So, at either end of the evolutionary line we have to take a lot on faith. (The latest thinking wants me to tell time by means of a "Blind Watchmaker!")

Eden we have to take on faith; other Bible topics can be investigated. When I did so, I found reason to accept the Bible's version of man's beginnings. For instance:

Aristotle was the Greek philosopher of 384-322 B.C. He tutored Colin Firth, and his views on nearly everything were accepted as fact for some 2,000 years. According to The New Encyclopædia Britannica, in the 16th and 17th centuries his teachings “ascended to the status of religious dogma” in the eyes of the [RC] church.

Aristotle’s explanation of the earth's position in space seemed logical for centuries. In his treatise On the Heavens, when refuting the notion that the earth rests on water, he said: “It is not the nature of water, any more than of earth, to stay in mid-air: it must have something to rest upon.” So, what does the earth “rest upon”? Aristotle taught that the sun, the moon, and the stars were attached to the surface of solid, transparent spheres. Sphere lay nestled within sphere, with the immobile earth at the center. As the spheres revolved within one another, the objects on them — our solar system — moved across the sky. If the heavenly bodies were not firmly attached to something, how else could they stay aloft?

We now have Isaac Newton's explanation that the planets are suspended in empty space, held in their orbits by an invisible force. — gravity. To some of Newton’s colleagues it was as hard to believe that space could be a void as it is hard for you to believe in [invisible] Jehovah; today we would be laughed off Speakeasy if we denied Newton!

Yet, rather than reflect the unscientific. views existing at the time of its writing, the Bible simply stated, about 1100 years before Aristotle, “[God is] hanging the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for “nothing” used here means “not any thing,” and this is the only time it occurs in the Bible. The picture it presents of an earth surrounded by empty space is recognized by scholars as a remarkable vision for its time. So, nearly 3,500 years ago, the Bible correctly noted that the earth has no visible support. “How Job knew the truth,” said one scholar, “is a question not easily solved by those who deny the inspiration of Holy Scripture.” How do you account for it?

Regards, Doug in New Mexico, where the earth is flat for miles, but the mountains keep us from falling off the edge.

"laughed off Speakeasy ?"

Wouldn't actually do that; anyway, not talking non-Euclidean here.

Regards, Doug in New Mexico

AFAIK ...

... then you are ignorant.

(NT) This was in response to a statement by Charlie Thunell

Re: (NT) This was in response to a statement by Charlie Thun

Hi Doug,

This is what Charlie stated: "What about greed, generosity, and tolerance? Those are important values to me... But it's nothing that is talked about at the churches in Mississippi AFAIK..." {emphasis mine}

Unless Charlie has made some sort of pilgrimage around the US and visited various churches on the way, his American experience appears to be limited to living in/near the Orthodox Jewish community in Brooklyn, NY, and taking a vacation to Tuscon, AZ.

Therefore AFAI-Know is meaningless. He *knows* nothing and is therefore ignorant of that which he doesn't know. This is what I was getting at. He makes the same sort of prejudicial judgment about Mississipian church leaders and goers that he accuses others of us of making. Not very tolerant it would seem.

I'm not a big church-goer myself, but over the years I have attended several of many denominations and even Jewish ones although I am a Christian (Catholic by raising). I would say that if you belong to a religious group that DOESN'T discuss these things, you are in the minority. Sermons don't touch on every teaching every Sunday, but certainly touch on the topics of greed/generosity and tolerance quite often in my experience.

Evie

Do tell us about your experiences in Mississippi churches

AFAIK, you haven't been there. Now since you state (correctly actually) that I am not privy to the details of your life (but remember it was you that volunteered your experiences in this country, did you lie?), I should shut my keyboard. How about you shut your keyboard about things you have no knowledge of as well!