Samsung: LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus
LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus
by humi208 - 11/3/09 1:39 PMi and many other users have a problem with judder depending on the motion plus function. it is not the normal judder of LCDs which should be reduced by motion plus.
the judder does not appaer if motion plus (100Hz or 200HZ) is deactivated. hence motion plus seems to produce this issue. it is reproduceable and occurs allways in the same scenes. the best it is shown in a HD demo channel here in germany (ZDF HD). this channel shows a demo loop and therein the problem is shown the best in the scene with the shoal.
the german samsung support doesn only answer with predefined answers. why should i buy a 100hz lcd if i have to deactivate this function to have a picture without judder or shiver within some scenes.
about two third of all b650 owners complain about this issue in a german board: http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=1&sort=lpost&forum_id=151&thread=9765
are there also other user with this issue?
is samsung working on this judder issue depending on motion plus?
is this a hw issue or could it be fixed by fw update?
LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus
by Samsung_HD_Tech
- 11/3/09 3:14 PM
In reply to: LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus by humi208
humi208,
AutoMotion Plus processing doesn't always enchance every input. While it may not provide the result you want with broadcasts, other inputs may have more favorable results.
At this point, I'm not aware of it being a "problem", nor am I aware of any firmware fixes planned to change any of the current settings. However, I can only speak on U.S. products.
--HDTech
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LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus
by humi208 - 11/4/09 12:30 AM In reply to: LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus by Samsung_HD_Tech
i know that motion plus does not enhance the always, but this is not the problem. the problem is that with motion plus the picture is worse.
this judder is a result of motion plus and without motion plus there is no judder. it's like there are only 2 or three pictures shown per scenond in such a scene. the motion is shown like motions in stroboscope light. so why sgould one buy a motion plus lcd when this feature is not working.
LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus
by humi208 - 11/4/09 1:44 PM In reply to: LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus by Samsung_HD_Tech
additional info:
today i went to the showroom of my seller and there wer about 20 LCDs of all brands with 100Hz or 200Hz standing side by side. i oberved this HD demo loop on the german channel ZDF HD and there was no judder on all LCDs, but the 100Hz and 200Hz LCDs of Samsung with enabled Motion Plus. When the Motion Plus function on the Samsung LCDs has been deactivated also there the picture was without "hanging" parts of scenes (judder).
it is obvious that there exists a probem with motion plus on the samsung lcds, since philips, toshiba, sony and lg has no problems in the same scenes.
the seller told me, that these problems are known and they are because the load is to high for the chip. but samsung LCDs are very cheap. if i would like to have one working with 100Hz weith naerly the same price i should spend 80€ again and he would give me the sony lcd.
but why doesn't samsung know about these problems or solve the problem. you can't sell LCDs with 100Hz, if it doesn't work
another bis problem is the scaling problem with anamorphic videos.
if these tweo problems wouldn't exist or could be solved my samsung le40b650 would be the best LCD i ever had.
but if the problems will not be soved i have to give it back
re: judder
by tyrexden - 11/4/09 1:58 PM In reply to: LCDs B650/B750 issue with judder depending on motion plus by humi208For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. So... its about finding a balance that works for you.
To me, the optimal setting for AutoMotion is Blur on 10 and Judder Reduction on 3.
To me, this gives the motion a smooth look without inducing that weird 'soap opera' effect.
judder
by humi208 - 11/4/09 2:36 PM In reply to: re: judder by tyrexdeni think the problems is still not unsterstood.
it has nothing to do with the normal judder as mentioned before. it is like the processor is not able to handle the load and a part of the picture looks like the update rate is about 2Hz. like a pc is not fast enough for a computer game. it has nothing to do with the settings. i have tried all settings for blur and judder, but the described problem occurs still and the motion doesn't look smoth in these special scenes.
the only solution is to disable motion plus. then the motion is smoth in these scenes. hence the problem is related to motion plus function which should do contrary.
judder
by Samsung_HD_Tech - 11/4/09 7:39 PM
In reply to: judder by humi208
humi208,
This is the first I've heard of this, so I'm not sure how it's widespread. I'm surprised to hear a salesperson describe the problem - or Samsung - like he did. I'm not sure what the problem would be, nor am I aware if there is a fix.
You should do what's best for you. I do appreciate you giving us a try, but I don't know what the problem would be. Do what makes you happiest, and I hope you consider us in the future.
--HDTech
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judder
by humi208 - 11/4/09 11:25 PM In reply to: judder by Samsung_HD_Tech
in this thread in a german forum http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=1&sort=lpost&forum_id=151&thread=9765
there is a survey and two third of the users have noticed the problem. in know you can't read the replies, but you can see the result of the survey.
i also sent the german samsung support how they can reproduce the problem, but you get always predefined answers. with a HD STB which is connected to the LCD via HDMI and the mentioned german HD channel the problem could easily be noticed.
is there a way how i can help you to reproduce the problem in the samsung development department?
are there hw differences between the european devices and the LN models?
judder
by Samsung_HD_Tech - 11/6/09 1:18 PM
In reply to: judder by humi208
humi208,
It may be how the picture processing (AutoMotion Plus) works with the incoming signal. Since signals can vary globally, it may be a result of the signals used in Germany just not working.
The adjusting of judder might help too, so if you haven't tried that already, it may be worth a shot.
That's the only thing I can think of. I will report on this, however, I would encourage everyone who is having the issue in their region to call in and complain so that the Samsung regional office in that area will be aware of the issue. Unfortunately, my voice is limited to the office in the U.S. I might even suggest posting the phone number, so that like-affected people can call in.
--HDTech
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- Click here to visit the Samsung forum
- Click here to visit the Samsung store on CNET
test video
by humi208 - 11/8/09 10:13 AM In reply to: judder by Samsung_HD_Tech
I recorded the loop from this german HD channel and played it with the internal mediaplayer of the LCD. The effect was the same as if the stream comes from HDMI.
I uploaded the files to rapidshare. It would be great if you download the file and double check if you can reproduce the effect with a LN B650 or LN B750 model. There are different scenes in this loop where this effect occurs.
Until the lates FW update it was the scene with the shoal, but it seems that in this scene somtimes the effect doesn't occur since FW 2000.5. Another scene is the one with the woman taking a picture with the photograph and at the end of the scene with teh husky (the one waving with its tail).
http://rapidshare.com/files/303475137/ZDF_HD_Showcase_loop.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/303600676/ZDF_HD_Showcase_loop.part2.rar
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