Home audio & video: What HDTV do I buy!? LCD or Plasma and which model?? HELP!!!
Sorry about that...
by Zitech - 7/29/09 4:06 PM In reply to: I feel like I've been repeating myself over and over and ove by jostenmeatThanks, I am sorry for being such a pain. I didn't even remember about the front projection thing. Thank you very much for the link, I haven't read through it yet but I certainly will. I might end up getting a pro-cal depending. Thanks a lot for the patience and explaining.
AVS Forum Break-In Disc
by Zitech - 7/29/09 4:22 PM In reply to: Sorry about that... by ZitechHi again, any chance you could track down that break-in disc on AVS forum? I have searched all over and can't find it. Is it a download or a disc you buy (I have no problem buying it). Thanks again for all the help, I think I am almost out of the woods.
I believe this might be it:
by jostenmeat - 7/29/09 5:22 PM In reply to: AVS Forum Break-In Disc by Zitechhttp://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053444
scroll to where it says: "Evangelo2's Break-in DVD or Thumbdrive Files!!!!!!!"
It's not a must, IMO. Good calibration is.
At the risk of drawing flames...
by WildClay - 7/29/09 5:05 PM In reply to: Thanks again by ZitechAgain, I would suggest you look at your set first and not just once but during your break in time, also spend the 20 bucks or so on DVE HD Video Essentials or other Cal disc and play around, heck if you are going to drop $400 on a pro cal what's 20 bucks, and besides the "pro" will undo anything "bad" you can do via user menu's.
I do agree to stay out of the service menu's, they are not for the novice and can damage your set.
I will just note that I have seen more than my share of "pro" calibrated sets and left thinking, what a waste of x hundred bucks. Not that the picture was bad, but it had no more zing than mine and many I have seen was less.
OK, purests and those with a large investment in a home theater room with ideal lighting conditions and all top of the line equipment likely feel a pro-calibration is needed, but cruise around the vendor sites in their support section and D/L their user manuals and see how many even mention getting a pro calibration and you would think they would have the second most vested interest, second only to you. They want you to have a great picture, yet oddly enough, I have never seen one suggest shelling out a pile of cash for calibration.
If the controls in the user menu's are not enough to get a great picture then you either have extreme lighting issues or a less than fully operational TV out of the box.
In all your years of buying TV's how many sets did you have calibrated by a pro? How many did you even get a cal disc for and calibrate with the knobs under the front cover vs how often did you just adjust that handful of user controls until you got a picture you like?
If this was a projection set you were getting I would not hesitate to say get a pro calibration, but it isn't.
Food for thought...
I own
by jostenmeat - 7/29/09 5:30 PM In reply to: At the risk of drawing flames... by WildClayAvia II, DVE HD, and Spears and Munsil Benchmark.
If you prefer inaccurate displays, good for you. It's the same with audio. A lot of people do not enjoy what I find to be incredible values with RC systems, because they simply prefer inaccurate audio! This is a very true thing.
You recommend pro for projector, but you really must not be paying attn to the point I've made on multiple occasions to the OP: a PJ requires a recalibration roughly every 200 hours. For a plasma, the benefit should last at least 100x longer I imagine.
But, OTOH, to be finicky with video can be a dangerous path. You might buy a spectroradiometer, pull out hair, try to adjust for saturation, trying to get colors at 6500k, finding the right gamma for your light control, whatever the heck they do. Then it might be hard to be happy when watching a movie, and nitpicking the red push on the girl's nose or something.
but with a pro cal, you are saved all of that, and are assured you have the great pic.
if calibration is to be avoided with the sets in question at this thread, it is IMO that he might as well just save the money and get something like an 800u.
You do know that the 800u is more accurate OTB than the 850, right? Why is the 850 considered to be their best previous model? because of the calibration flexibility. It would be silly to buy the 850 hearing that it's the better set, only not to have it calibrated. For the cheaper model will be more accurate! Meant for two different types of consumers.
In the eye of the beholder...
by WildClay - 7/29/09 7:43 PM In reply to: I own by jostenmeatThere is a clearly defined standard for HD picture calibration and no shortage of test equipment one can buy to acheive that standard and I do not argue that in the least.
What I dispute is that professional calibration is a requirement for most Plasma and LCD HD TV's and has been greatly over hyped. Nor that the test equipment is needed unless there is something wrong with the set in the first place.
The over all perception of the picture has a lot of factors well outside the control of the TV, the most significant being the ambient light level in the room, the direction of the light, and it goes all the way down to the color of the walls and even to a degree the color preception of the viewer.
If you mostly or always watch in controled conditions that are as static as possible I might go for the pro calibration argument, but given that outside a Home Theater room designed as such or a movie theater that is something that applies to at best 1% of the TV buying public for their home.
They in fact have significant changes in lighting, content, sources, etc that make prorfessional calibration IMHO typically a waste of money for most people.
Those things you can control with the user settings and a reasonable calibration disc are going to get most 98% or closer to anything a professional calibration is going to produce and without either, you are likely in the 90-95% range out of the box.
Now factor in preference and perception and just as most people don't listen to music perfectly adjusted to studio standards, the horrors of it all they adjust the tone controls or on better sets the equalizer until they get the sound they like, and they may even change those settings based on content, mood, and many other very unscientific criteria.
It is not really possible to define "accurate" when it comes to anything but test patterns, once you get in to the complexities of rich and moving content, other than at the extremes, all of that accuracy goes right out the window, not to mention the light coming in that window over the course of the day and night.
For me, I like to know that at the starting point my picture with test patterns offered on my various cal discs is as right as possible, not over driven (the most common out of cal setting) and the colors are correct within reason.
After that I tweak the picture to my liking, again within reason, thankfully there are a number of settings groups so I and anyone can tweak the picture to the conditions that suit them, for me it was 480i and 1080p, and medium light and low light levels, on each source but optimized for the the best sources.
My picture is no more inaccurate than an original Van Gogh, after all in the end it is what I like, not what some piece of test equipment said was right.
However, even if you put that argument aside, the real issue still remains, calibration for the vast majority is a waste of money since it is calibrated to a standard in lighting when the cal guy is there and change in ambient lighting pretty much blows the finer edge off of that calibration except in very similar lighting.
I think if someone is unhappy with their picture or thinks they are missing out on something and it is worth it to them to get a professional calibration, then they should go for it, I also think if the picture blows your socks off and is everything you expected and then some, then why spend hundreds of bucks to change that...
The final issue I have with "professional" calibration is what most people are really getting for their money, some guy that went to a 3-day class, is armed with a check list of values for a given set, and test equipment to attain those values and that is all you get, which can still be far from an "accurate" picture.
Where did all of these calibration "pro's" come from? Granted there are real pro's out there but most are no more a real pro then the guys at the local tune up shop who were taught how to set a spark plug gap right, the real pro's are at the Indy track or drag strips with racing teams and a handful around for the general public, the rest are hooking a computer to your car and replacing your plugs, and making sure the computer is showing values from their rote sheets.
It takes a lot of experience as well as training to really be a pro and HD TV's have just not been out long enough to honestly say most who are doing calibration are "pros".
Thanks, that makes me feel a lot better!
by Zitech - 7/29/09 8:06 PM In reply to: In the eye of the beholder... by WildClayIn reply to: WildClay
Thanks, that definitely makes me feel a lot better about my purchase. From my personal experience with other products and TVs your perspective is dead on and I'm glad to know that applies to this as well. I know too that especially with audio it is one thing to change a few settings when you want to listen to music vs. a movie but you could go as far as to change your settings for each and every song you listen to. At a certain point it is just crazy, you have already achieved 98% perfect striving for that 100% is simply crazy to do. I will go ahead and get a calibration disc and do just what you said, I am sure while I'm watching this during the break-in process I am going to be blown away without any calibration at all.
So thanks for settling my nerves on that one, I was starting to think "OMG, now I have to deal with hiring a cal guy" and I'm glad to know that I'm not crazy for just doing it myself and getting a great picture. Thanks again for all the TV help, I ended up with what's sure to be an amazing display.
WildClay
by jostenmeat - 7/30/09 1:27 PM In reply to: In the eye of the beholder... by WildClayWhat I dispute is that professional calibration is a requirement for most Plasma and LCD HD TV's and has been greatly over hyped. Nor that the test equipment is needed unless there is something wrong with the set in the first place.
I have an issue with dead on accuracy being over-hyped, but oh well. I do have two issues, like yourself, and the first is a big one: cost. Otherwise, there isn't any other reason to argue against a top notch calibration. Right? The second is something that you addressed near the end of your post, finding the right person. (you don't own a Signature Pro panel right? What do you have? I guess can use search function too...)
My brother has a 50" 80u Costco equivalent. I would never consider recommending a pro cal to him, because that would represent over 30% of the costs. The OP has a Signature 141 for crying out loud! This represents an entirely different world of calibration flexibility! And cost!
The over all perception of the picture has a lot of factors well outside the control of the TV, the most significant being the ambient light level in the room, the direction of the light, and it goes all the way down to the color of the walls and even to a degree the color preception of the viewer.
All of which is adjusted for by calibration, except the last thing, which is extremely moot and pointless. I'm not going to present the argument here, but just ask that you think about it for a little bit. If the answer still escapes you, I can later oblige.
If you mostly or always watch in controled conditions that are as static as possible I might go for the pro calibration argument, but given that outside a Home Theater room designed as such or a movie theater that is something that applies to at best 1% of the TV buying public for their home.
Did you note that the 9G link above? There are reference suggestions for BOTH day and night viewing. The OP seems to have the propensity to forget a lot of what I say, and seems to prefer your recommendations that you kindly lay out, and so I'll just repeat what I've already said in one of his multiple threads:
The pro cal will get you specific calibrations for DAY and NIGHT settings for EACH source. That is a LOT of calibrations!
They in fact have significant changes in lighting, content, sources, etc that make prorfessional calibration IMHO typically a waste of money for most people.
It's a reference setting. After that, you can blame the software. I blame software all the time. But when the software is good, you've never seen anything that beautiful in your life.
Those things you can control with the user settings and a reasonable calibration disc are going to get most 98% or closer to anything a professional calibration is going to produce and without either, you are likely in the 90-95% range out of the box.
I would love if you can share your math on these results. A list of variables would be nice, with their weighting as well. Last time I was involved with the topic of pro cals, I actually said "half-way" there. Also note that I concurred with the particular recommendation of the person doing the calibration (which is related to our second issue).
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=601525&postcount=23
Now factor in preference and perception and just as most people don't listen to music perfectly adjusted to studio standards, the horrors of it all they adjust the tone controls or on better sets the equalizer until they get the sound they like, and they may even change those settings based on content, mood, and many other very unscientific criteria.
Sure. But, that leads you to advise against a pro cal. Look, I've never once received a pro-cal. But I typically try to advise towards the ideal, in light of the OP's situation. After thousands of posts just at this subforum, this might very well be the very first time I would be even somewhat adamant about a pro cal. However, this is also the first time I'm involved in a thread about a 141 purchase!
My picture is no more inaccurate than an original Van Gogh, after all in the end it is what I like, not what some piece of test equipment said was right.
It is a given that subjective preference cannot be argued with. Duh.
However, even if you put that argument aside, the real issue still remains, calibration for the vast majority is a waste of money since it is calibrated to a standard in lighting when the cal guy is there and change in ambient lighting pretty much blows the finer edge off of that calibration except in very similar lighting.
Read above. Now if one PREFERS having ambient lighting for most viewing, than yeah, I would agree a videophile they are not. Save the money. Don't buy the 141!
The final issue I have with "professional" calibration is what most people are really getting for their money, some guy that went to a 3-day class, is armed with a check list of values for a given set, and test equipment to attain those values and that is all you get, which can still be far from an "accurate" picture.
Where did all of these calibration "pro's" come from? Granted there are real pro's out there but most are no more a real pro then the guys at the local tune up shop who were taught how to set a spark plug gap right, the real pro's are at the Indy track or drag strips with racing teams and a handful around for the general public, the rest are hooking a computer to your car and replacing your plugs, and making sure the computer is showing values from their rote sheets.
It takes a lot of experience as well as training to really be a pro and HD TV's have just not been out long enough to honestly say most who are doing calibration are "pros".
Your final point is extremely valid. But, helpful persons on forums can help guide those who want the best out of their systems.
Here are some more bonus links for whoever cares:
Display Calibration Subforum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=139
ISF Calibrators, where are you located? Please post here!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586330
Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933
jostenmeat -- Reply
by WildClay - 7/30/09 4:01 PM In reply to: I own by jostenmeatReply level was too deep so I had to reply here to your last message...
I am not going to go point for point, I think our positions are well established in the thread.
There is no doubt you have put up a considerable amount of material to back your point, that we don't agree is life, however, I do think the OP was presented with more than one view on the topic and no shortage of reference material to review and he seems like the type of person who is able to make up his own mind based on the information presented.
So I would not so much say, as you have, that the OP disregarded your input or mine, he took in the opinions and comments decided what made sense to him at this time, his views might change after he gets the set, they might not, I trust he can and will make those decisions.
As for a couple of your points, that he bought a high end set with more knobs still does not mean he needs to turn them all or have a pro turn them for him. I would sure hope it means he gets even a better picture out of the box and more ability to make adjustments though user menu's than with a less expensive unit.
I think the bottom line remains the same regardless of price point (within reason), he will have to decide if he likes what he has, thinks he can get more himself, or thinks it is worth it to see what he gets from a pro, in any case it is not a decision he has to or even should make today or the day his set arrives.
Of course the prevailing view at A/V-ophile sites is going to be to go as purest as possible and that is great for videophiles and same for audiophiles but to suggest he bought too much TV if he is not going to watch in optimum conditions is just not the right outlook in my opinion. That he decided on a great TV will actually mean he needs to do less to get more out of it, as it should.
I am glad you are passionate about your views and think you have the OP best interests at heart, we just don't agree fully, which is the great thing about forums, they offer not only fact and opinion but all the shades of gray.
You both make great points...
by Zitech - 7/31/09 2:56 PM In reply to: jostenmeat -- Reply by WildClayHi again, both of you make great points and it is just a matter of perspective I think. Either way I have to break this TV in before I do any type of calibration. For now I have decided to go with a Cal disc and try it myself, in the future I very well may hire someone but to be honest I would be interested in learning how to do this. I also understand Jostenmeat perspective on why did I get a Pro-141FD if I wasn't go to hire a Pro-Calibrator. I was originally going to go with the Panasonic and came across an amazing deal on the 141, I figured since it was a bit more TV and a bit less money I would go with it. Anyhow I think it will have an incredible picture and can't wait to get it in the mail. Also I am with you WildClay that depending on that Blu-Ray disc quality drastically ranges movie to movie, I always read reviews on them before I make a purchase, blu-ray.com is the best site I've found, thanks for the suggestions. I haven't received any of the equipment yet since I ordered it online but here is my setup, I will be sure to give the full review when I get it all hooked up, hopefully you both will approve:
TV: Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-141FD.
Speakers: Kef FiveTwo Model 11 with HTB2SE subwoofer.
Receiver: Pioneer VSX-21TXH.
Blu-Ray Player: Sony Playstation 3.
These will all be connected with HDMI cables.
The main reason I went with the FiveTwo speakers is even if I have to sacrifice the full surround sound it wasn't worth it to me to have to deal with the speaker setup, no matter how you slice it running speaker wire all over you media room is a real hassle.
I have one last question for you guys which is what surge protector/power conditioner would you recommend, right now I am looking at the Monster 650. Any recommendation would be great.
I really want to thank everyone that helped me on here, it saved be tons of hours of research as well as personal experience which is evaluable. Thanks again for all the help.
I will give the full review of all this once I get it all working properly and put together..
I agree
by Zitech - 7/29/09 5:30 PM In reply to: At the risk of drawing flames... by WildClayI 100% agree with everything you said. I basically used to just go through the setting for a few hours when I got a TV and just set it how I like it and that was it. I will get a cal disc. Also, you make a great point, everyone has there own personal preference and maybe the cal guy likes a different look than you do, then you wasted $400 bucks for nothing. I am just going to play around with it and enjoy the process, hey, I got a Pioneer 141FD, arguably the best TV ever made for an amazing price, I'm not going to complain about the amount of detailed settings, lol. Thanks for the all help.
One Step at a time
by WildClay - 7/29/09 9:04 PM In reply to: I agree by ZitechIn Reply to your other message, the thread was too deep so I could not reply directly.
I think you made a great choice, then again between the sets you were considering they were all great choices, so you already were far along the right track starting out with some good choices.
The good news is that if I am wrong you can still hire a cal guy 
In the mean time you can experience the joy of trying to calibrate a TV, the disc I suggested I found good foew newbies to the process since it runs about an hour just explaining with examples and plain speak what all the controls do and to a degree how they interact, then it jumps in to the test patterns and takes you through the process in a very good order, which is important, so I will note the disc again DVE's HD Video Essentials, it also has basic calibration for your surround sound system. The Disc comes with some colored film slides that lets you eyeball what some of the 15,000 dollar test equipment does, setting color, had to explain in words but you will see when you start messing with it.
Just a couple of things to keep in mind, the first is that no matter what you do with the settings in the user menu's you are only one menu selection from going back to factory, so don't be afraid to play with the controls to see what they do at both their higher and lower levels, nudging them a little will not make enough change to really understand what a given control does.
Another thing is that in most cases it is and iterative process, you go through once, and then start over and see if you knocked any prior settings out, you likely will have, then you will start to get a "feel" for the inter-play that exists between the controls, so you might dial one thing back a little from ideal because you know when you change another setting it will move that one some.
The final note is that it takes practice to get really good at it, each time you calibrate your set you will get better at it, it will go faster and produce a better result, it is as I said some where in this thread, part art form and part technical know how, the disc will get you though the technical know how, experiece will develop the art form and when the smoke clears you will have a new skill set that will serve you for years to come.
I tweaked mine like the 3rd day I got the set, then again 3 months later, and have have found no reason to mess with it again and likely will not for many years unless something changes, like where the set is. You will, like most, get used to the picture you found you liked and have no desire to mess with it.
Hope you enjoy your set as much as I enjoy mine, I became more slective over time as to which movies in my collection rated replacing with Blu-Ray, at first you might be tempted to replace them all but with a good Blu-Ray player, a lot of movies just are not worth the price to replace for what you get.
One of the most impressive ones I have was an animated flick, Cars, in Blu-Ray it is like seeing it for the first time, Top Gun was up there also, action flicks seem to make the most difference, at least to me.
Hope you come back an let us all know how it worked out, especially the calibration, but most of all, did it meet or exceed your expectations and are you happy with it.
If you do get a professional calibrator.....
by ikjadoon - 7/30/09 9:12 AM In reply to: I agree by ZitechMake sure that person is experienced in calibrating Pioneer 9G KURO's, especially if it is a 2009 model. I'm new to all this, too, with my PRO-111FD. But, I've found out that you need someone who is experienced with this latest set of KURO displays to get a good calibration. If you have a 2009 model (check manufacturer date), make sure you REALLY get a good one because they have different gamma curves than the '08 models.
You made a great choice. You'll love it like I love mine. 
Great Advice
by WildClay - 8/1/09 11:01 AM In reply to: If you do get a professional calibrator..... by ikjadoonAfter reading his manual on the 141, if he does go for a pro he really needs one that know that set and not just the cal options but all of the auto-cal, and picture mode options.
The good news is the other guy that is really pushing pro-cal for him gave him some sources to seek out a real pro and not some guy that will just dial it in to some pre-determined values.
I urge you to research your speaker selection some more
by jostenmeat - 7/31/09 3:14 PM In reply to: I agree by Zitechit can make all the difference in the world. even if just 2.1, or 3.1, or 3.2 or whatever. get a better sub.
If it was me, with such a fine display like that, depending on your situation, I'd probably hook up the TV, and sources, to a UPS. They offer surge protection already, and depending who you ask, the sags are just as bad as the spikes.
You typically wouldn't connect sub or receiver, to them, because of the very high draw. You could, but you need to spend a LOT more on the UPS.
the amps in the receiver and sub draw the very most right when you turn it on, so that the caps get charged. just an fyi. so, i actually turn on my receiver, and amplifier, first, then on to source and PJ. Hey, I'm a nut who's lost in a batcave.
check out APC, and the refurbs will be perfectly fine. I use a Belkin, and cosmetically they're better, but the one I had made a bit of noise. I've actually given it to my brother for different reasons entirely, and it works well at his place. sources and TV and xbox are hooked to it. again, not the sub or receiver.
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