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Storage: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life?
- 2/13/09 2:55 PM
CD Shelf life, recording, etc...
by cdadave - 2/13/09 6:30 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
What an interesting topic this is. I burn most of my CD's on a Philco 'Stand-Alone' burner, which I've patched into my stereo system. I wonder if there's a difference in shelf-life between CD's dubbed on a stand-alone burner as opposed to discs dubbed in yer computer. I have a few recordable CD's burned as far back as 4 years ago; no problems with them, so far.
Also, my stand-alone burner can only use discs which have the words 'digital audio' in the CD logo; do those last any longer/shorter than the discs which are only for computer burning? Conversely, I CAN use a 'digital audio' CD in my computer, though. That must have something to do with dubbing speeds, etc.
As far as particular brands, MEMOREX CD's are awful. I've had more aborted recordings, errors, and unreadability with that brand than any other. The best brand of recordable CD I've found is FUJIFILM. Maxell discs are okay, too, but Memorex is a pretty dismal brand.
Finally, a few weeks ago, I managed to get 79:59 worth of music on an 80-minute disc. I got lucky there. I'm currently converting my LP collection to CD; it's amazing how much warmer an LP-to-CD sounds than the regular pre-recorded CD's you can buy from your local music vendor. I have 3,000 LP's. So this project which I have imposed upon myself, at the rate I'm going, should take me at least the better part of a decade.
Have I typed too much yet?
Would like to suggest another way
by sciregn - 2/14/09 11:56 AM In reply to: CD Shelf life, recording, etc... by cdadaveHi,
As I do not want to post advertising here I still would like to tell you about what our company does for saving audio media (LPs, 45, 78 rpm) reel to reel, 8tracks, cassettes, etc).
I think you might just end up saying what many of our customers say when they see the results "I have never seen anything like it".
I believe we could not only save you enormous amount of your time but give you a permanent saving of your memories accompanied by a complete catalog of all your audio (you can also add digital recordings to it like CDs) and including a listing by interprets.
And when it comes to create CDs from your database you will be able to request one-for-one copies or customize your output and create any CD you like with selected material placed in the order you wish.
Oh Did I say that each CD will be printed with the entire content of your CDs as will the Insert for the Jewel box?
If you are interested e-mail me at mmcsi@attglobal.net
Thanks
Serge
lp to cd sound
by JOHN A. JOHNSON - 2/15/09 7:26 AM In reply to: CD Shelf life, recording, etc... by cdadaveI am a retired audio engineer. I spent 8 tears cutting disc masters for companies such as Mercury Classical, Kapp, Command and many other labels. The reason that lps on cd sound better than pure cds is that when you play an lp you are hearing about a dozen diffrent types of distortion that are not present on sound that is digital from begining to end.
Everything fails - the question is when
by punterjoe - 2/13/09 6:35 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I've been burning CDRs since 1992, and oddly, some of those old 63 minute CDs still play fine. I also have CDs & DVDs that are a month old that won't play on any device without errors.
I've been trying to discern a pattern, but so far it's eluded me. I've gone by make & dye color of the blanks, the length of the blank from (63 to 80+ min on CDs) the machine they were burned on and the machine they were played on. I have yet to find a clear pattern.
Since I have little more than superstition & dumb luck to guide me, I hedge my bets by backing up to optical media, other removable media - from zip & orb drives & DAT tapes in the 90s to SD & thumbdrives today, and also to old hard drives removed from service when something bigger & cheaper came along. It's a mess & a logistic nightmare. I know ALL these media will fail. I'm counting on the fact that they won't all fail at the same time.
Years
by SF59 - 2/13/09 6:42 PM In reply to: Everything fails - the question is when by punterjoeI have burned DVDs and CDs ranging from the lowest of low quality to the top of the line... a lot of them date back to 10+ years ago & they all still work fine.
To burn or not to burn?
by Bro.Bob - 2/13/09 7:17 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Well this is easy for me every one my old windows 95 CD still work today! on my DVD/CD burner now,so I think I can say I got at lest 10 years ago,I see no reason that I can get one to last 20 years.
I would point out that Rewrite disks have failed me some real cheap very low grade CDs have failed me.
Archive CDs made for data storage has not failed me for more then ten years now.
so I think its safe to say it will be better with media such as Blue Ray DVD that will hold lot more data then my CD-R.
I understand that they are lab tested to last as long as 100 years!
all we can do is wait and see.
home-burned Blu-ray?
by antiquefart - 2/14/09 3:20 AM In reply to: To burn or not to burn? by Bro.BobI've never used Blu-ray, but it's my general impresssion that on the one hand, the discs are supposed to be exquisitely sensitive to even the slightest scratch or other kind of surface problem, while on the other hand they are supposed to have a harder scratch-resistant play surface. I'm not sure I would trust valuable data to this format. I also tend to suspect that a home Blu-ray burner drive is likely to be a lot fussier and problematic than a standard DVD drive.
In any case, I definitely recommend against using 8.5 GB DL discs, for any purpose; I've had nothing but trouble with them.
Something else to consider
by johnvilburn - 2/13/09 7:59 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Regardless of the shelf life of a particular type of media, you need to take into account changes in technology. How many people can read 5 1/4" floppies anymore, even if the media is perfectly good? As technology evolves and we update our computers, we lose the ability to access some of the older technology. DVDs are gradually replacing CDs, Blu-Ray disks are gradually replacing standard DVDs, something else will come along that will make anything that looks like a CD/DVD/Blu-ray obsolete. When that happens, we will adopt it and begin to lose the ability to read those old CDs. So, if you have something important backed up, be sure to transfer it to newer storage methods as technology evolves.
An alternative?
by cdadave - 2/13/09 8:49 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I 'spose that if you're really afraid of losing your music on home-made CD's, you could always dub them onto cassette, thus accomplishing 'technology in reverse'...I've got cassettes I recorded 20 and 30 years ago that still sound good. Then all you have to do is dub the cassettes back onto CD again.
Watch your recording speed
by GFW - 2/13/09 9:18 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
It helps to know how a disc burner works. There has been a push for higher and higher burning speeds over the years. The higher the speed, the weaker the laser pulse, because the laser is pulsed by a capacitive discharge. Go too fast, and the capacitor does not have time to charge fully, and the pit that is being burned will not be very deep partly for this reason, and partly because the burn moves on too rapidly.
The old burners burned at about 2X. Now we are asking for 8X, 16X and so forth, and although the drives are indeed made to handle it, when you get near top burn speed, I'll bet the burn quality is suffering.
Burn your valuable audio at 4X max on your 16X burner, and you will get a longer lasting disc, IN MY OPINION. Others may have a differing view, or something to add.
Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life?
by antiquefart - 2/14/09 2:52 AM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
After reading through the many messages posted here so far, I have a few observations, as well as a few questions.
Several posters have mentioned vinyl LPs, and tapes. It's important to remember the distinction between analog and digital characteristics. Unlike digital, analog recording *always* introduces some degree of distortion. This may or may not be terribly important if you're backing up alphanumeric data, but it can make a huge difference for audiovisual data. Yes, both an LP and a commercial DVD are mechanically pressed, but even under the best storage conditions an LP collects dust in its grooves, and even the best playback needle and arm will cause wear in the grooves, with the result that sound inevitably degrades slightly with each use.
Tape is a magnetic medium. Each time a tape is played, a slight amount of the magnetized oxide coating wears off onto the heads and rollers, again introducing some degradation. Tape is also subject to some amount of print-through, especially with longer--and thus thinner--tapes, where the magnetism "migrates" through its backing onto the layers above and below it. Further, it's possible for tape to stretch slightly. And finally, any external source of magnetism can degrade or destroy the data, depending on its strength and proximity.
With both of these types of analog media you will retain the basic information recorded, but with each playback, and also merely with the passage of time, more and more distortion and degradation of signal will be introduced. This may not be particularly noticeable on an original audiocassette or VHS played on excellent and well-maintained equipment, but distortion becomes immediately apparent if you ever try dubbing a second- or third-generation tape.
Unlike analog media, individual bits of a digital recording are either there, and readable, or they aren't. Virtually every digital recording scheme incorporates an error-correction protocol, so that individual bad bits are corrected in playback. If error-correction gets wiped out you may lose a section of data, or your player may skip or hang (or refuse to load), but uncorrupted data will retain exactly the same quality of information that was originally encoded. Some DVD or CD players are very sensitive to problem areas, while others can be much more forgiving. Commercially pressed DVDs are always far more stable than home-burned discs, but they can have problems if the original pressing was done less than expertly; occasionally you may run across a movie where every copy skips or hangs in the same place.
Thanks to error-correction, most minor scratches on a commercial DVD are ignored by a player. I frequently borrow movie DVDs from my local library or a rental service, and finding a pristine disc is a rarity. Library discs in particular tend to be ill-used, with multitudes of scratches, as well as fingerprints, food, snot, etc. A little water or Windex takes off the foreign matter, and a very finely-abrasive cleaner such as Brasso used with a clean soft cloth will usually tidy up all but the worst scratches. In any case you must always wipe or rub back and forth in a center-to-edge direction--you can rub quite firmly if needed--but *never* around the disc in the direction of play. A random scratch that isn't too deep or too broad will usually spare the error-correction bit, but even a barely visible scratch in the direction of play can easily wipe it out. This kind of scratch is nearly always caused by a portable player being jiggled while playing, or even worse, in a moving vehicle.
Returning to the question of home-burned discs, I have no idea of the longevity that can be expected, but many of the suggestions already made make eminently good sense. Make multiple backups of critical data, if possible no more than second-generation copies from original media, or in any case using as few generations as feasible, always after first verifying the integrity of the source. Use different types of media: CDs or DVDs, external harddrive, flash, online data storage, tape, paper, whatever--including offsite storage--none will always be foolproof. Buy the best discs available for the level of security you need, which may or may not be gold film. Use the best and most reliable CD/DVD writer you can find, and replace it if and when it starts to make errors--I've thrown away two crappy Lite-On drives, and now use either an internal Optiarc or an external HP, either of which is good enough for my purposes. Use well-regarded writing software; I use VSO CopyToDVD, which again suits my own needs. The lower you set the write speed, the fewer write errors are likely to occur. Before writing, inspect each disc for visible dust specks, but try never to touch the play surface with your fingers. Avoid any source of possible vibration while writing, including, as mentioned by one poster, any loud sound. Immediately after writing each disc, verify its playback, preferably in a different drive (or player). Store discs in a dark, dry, cool (not cold) dust-free place, each in its individual pouch.
I've never specifically looked for the recommended Taiyo Yuden discs, but have long used Verbatim DVD+R, which carry a "lifetime warranty"--over the years I've gotten a very few coasters, but never enough to mess around with the warranty. I've given up on other brands, which tended to give a much higher rate of coasters. I've also given up trying to use 8.5 GB double-layer discs, of any brand at all. I've found that when writing VOB files, a reasonable amount of data compression does not noticeably affect audiovisual quality, but disc menus do not like to be compressed, so I nearly always omit them. As far as I'm aware, none of the Verbatim 4.7 GB discs I've written over the past six years have degraded in any way.
A couple of questions:
Someone earlier suggested using DVD-R discs, and I wonder if that was meant to exclude DVD+R; and if so, why?
And someone else cautioned against writing anything directly onto the label side of a disc. I've never tried using LightScribe, and I know better than to put any sort of sticky label onto a disc, so I simply write on it with a Sharpie Fine Point permanent marker. Is there any reason not to do this? In fact I've occasionally erased markings with isopropanol applied with a Q-tip, and so far haven't noticed any playback problems with these discs.
Overall
by Hforman - 2/15/09 1:49 PM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by antiquefartI think the preference for digital vs analog is not so much a shelf life issue as it is a sound quality when you are dealling with audio media. Most audiophiles prefer the sound of vinyl records. Even though most ears can't tell the difference, every nuance of sound is recorded to a vinyl record where digital media is a "sampling" technique. That is, digital is a storage of the basic elements of sound at intervals, where vinyl is continuous. The vinyl though is read by a needle touching the grooves so there is more possibility of wear even if the record is handled carefully. On the other hand, there are vinyl recordingds that have been around and still play being decades old and before that there were wire recordings that still play.
As for today's digital media, I think the important thing to remember is that your CD or DVD burner does not make little holes in a metal disk, like you might find on a pressed disk (such as a windows media disk). If you keep the disks in near-perfect conditions (heat, light, etc.) you should be able to read that media after a long period of time. Few people keep things in near-perfect conditions. If I was the manufacterer of bland media, I would tend to find there are probebly many ways to test the future of media readability, but I would always error on the plus side. Independent labs would try to give us a better and more realistic average.
Careful Storage
by tbcass - 2/14/09 3:44 AM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I keep all my CDR's and DVDR's stored in zipped up holders which are then stored in a dark closet with a stable environment that never gets too hot or too cold. They also also rarely get used. Out of 300 +/- disks I have never had one go bad in the 10 years I've been doing this.
Shelf Life Varies by Manufacturer
by putergoddess - 2/14/09 4:43 AM In reply to: Do burned CDs and DVDs have a shelf life? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I burned the pictures from my son's wedding, onto CD - just 4 years ago. I thought I was ok, seeing as I was pretty sure the shelflife of Cd's was around 5- 10 years. Just two weeks ago, I went to make backup CD's. Not one of the Cd's would read. I tried in 3 different machines. I even tried those "data recovery" programs, hoping to salvage Some of the pictures.
No Luck.
Every single picture of my son's wedding is gone.
I am so sad about that.
CD's manufacturers should be responsible for putting a warning on their packaging, stating the shelflife of their product.
I wonder how many more of my CD's are worthless coaters by now.
The Point
by Hforman - 2/15/09 1:56 PM In reply to: Shelf Life Varies by Manufacturer by putergoddessGetting back to the original question, this should be the main point. Nothing lasts forever and, as many point out, the storage conditions and maybe a bit of "dumb luck" would make a big difference in the way the original poster's expectations are set. Just like writing with pen and ink, we still have access to documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the constituition, yet inked letters from this century may have faded away. I'm sorry technology has let you down and have resulted in the loss of your memories.
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