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Analog to digital incompatibility...
by Samsung_HD_Tech
- 1/26/09 7:42 PM
In reply to: Closed Captioning by Bailoze
It's an analog to digital difference.
Here's some information that you might find useful.
DVD's and other seperate non-broadcasted media aren't even mandated to include subtitles, however, our televisions have and will continue to support that technology.
This should answer most of your questions. If you have more, please let me know.
http://ce.org/PDF/CEA_Closed_Caption_FAQs_April_2007.pdf
--HDTech
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Closed caption on MPEG4
by k_sraj - 4/2/09 9:38 PM In reply to: Closed Captioning by BailozeCan anyone please help me in getting started with MPEG4 closed captioning.
1. I need information about MPEG4 frame structure
2. where closed caption information information is inserted into MPEG4 frame?
3. Is 708 standard is supported in MPEG4 for CC??
Closed Captioning doesn't work over HDMI???
by bpahlite - 8/13/09 9:16 AM In reply to: Closed Captioning by BailozeIs this true? I just bought a Samsung Plasma, and my wife, who uses closed captioning all the time while our baby is sleeping, is very upset that this feature is now gone. I have been scouring the web to find an answer, and this is the first time I've heard of this.
My father-in-law just bought an LCD, and he's having the same problem.
We are both connecting to our cable boxes via HDMI.
Is HDMI truly the cause for the loss of close captioning?
HDMI is sort of the cause ...
by Bill Osler - 8/13/09 6:46 PM In reply to: Closed Captioning doesn't work over HDMI??? by bpahliteAs I understand it the problem is not HDMI per se, but rather the industry standards around how HD signals of any kind are handled.
As I understand it, possibly not 100% accurate, the closed caption information is in one of the lines from the video signal in composite video. It is apparently possible in principle to include CC in component video, at least at 480p, but my Samsung does not support it on component video at all. I don't know which manufacturers do support CC at 480p.
I don't understand all the details, but there are apparently some complexities in inserting captioning into HD signals, which is why it is not supported in HDMI or other HD signals.
My Samsung TV requires that captioning be inserted at the source of the video signal. Then the TV displays whatever picture the source sends. If your DVD or Blu-Ray or cable box or satellite box or whatever can decode the captioning then it works OK. If your source can't/won't decode the captioning you're stuck.
Personally I think this illustrates the fact that offering accessibility for hearing impaired users was a rather low priority for both Samsung and the industry as a whole. Samsung certainly has not implemented the captioning as well as it could have in its products - eg: my Samsung Blu-Ray player won't insert captioning from DVDs into the video, it only inserts subtitles.
Anyway, my suspicion is that if you can use the captioning if you switch to composite video (s-video might work also) but if you have to do that there's no point in having an expensive HD TV. It's better if your source can insert the captioning into the HDMI signal.
Design flaw with respect to captioning
by dmulvany - 2/12/09 1:22 PM In reply to: Surround and Closed Captioning by DemiurgosI've read that for some new HDTVs, Samsung apparently elected to make it impossible for analog captions to be decoded through any of the analog inputs except the RF input. The composite, S-video and component inputs bypass the TV component that contains the chip to decode the captions. This is a BIG mistake because it means that the HDTV won't be able to decode analog captions that can be passed through by cable or satellite set-top boxes, DVRs, DVD players or VCRs. The only way to get analog captions would be by using the RF input for those devices, which is undesirable for many reasons, one of which that there's only one RF input and the consumer may have multiple devices to hook up. Another reason is that the picture quality will not be as good as it could be if one has to use the RF cable instead of the other analog inputs.
Samsung needs to go back to the drawing table and place the caption decoder outside of the tuner so that every video signal coming through the TV can be decoded through that chip. Analog captions are going to be around a long time since they're the only way we can record closed captions for now.
So, Demiurgos, the reason you might not be able to see captions on your DTV is if it can only decode captions through the RF input, which you might not be using, and if you're using a set-top box that doesn't decode captions, like a Verizon FiOS set top box, but only passes them through. It means sacrificing the picture quality you'd be able to get by using component video, S-video or composite video and settling for the inferior picture quality you get by using RF cable in order to get captions. An alternative is to get a more expensive set-top box that will decode captions itself or to see if you can use a direct cable feed instead or an antenna.
I think, though, that Samsung should seriously think about how to correct this huge problem for people who expected the analog inputs to transmit caption data. These people didn't have any reason to expect that their TV would be crippled unnecessarily like that. Samsung needs to fix this problem as soon as possible.
Closed Captioning
by Ivan Awfulitch - 2/12/09 2:25 PM In reply to: Design flaw with respect to captioning by dmulvanydmulvany,
I just had this discussion with someone elsewhere.. I have an LN46a750 hooked up to a set top box (att U-verse) via an HDMI Cable. Someone mentioned that CC doesn't work through an HDMI cable. I tried it by pressing the CC button on the remote. It said something like "Not Available". I then went to my set top box and there is a setting for closed captioning - actually 2; one for digital and one for SD Channels. Once I turned them one, voila... CC worked. With the CC text scrolling on my TV, I again pressed the CC button on my remote and I still get the "Not Available" box - right above the CC text. Think of it this way... at least in my case... the set top box is upstream from the TV and sends the signals to it. If the set top box blocks CC, there's no way for the TV to get CC. Again, this is how it works for me - totall digital cable signal through an HDMI cable to an att U-Verse Set Top Box.
Granted, it's kinda screwey with the "Not Available" box popping up while CC is on, but I think when you add a STB in the equation, that may be what's filtering CC from gettting to the LCD.
iVAN
Captioning problems and needed improvements
by dmulvany - 2/14/09 4:36 PM In reply to: Closed Captioning by Ivan AwfulitchIvan, what you brought up is a different matter than what I was discussing. I was talking about *analog* inputs; you were talking about a *digital* input (HDMI). There is no standard for transmitting closed caption data over HDMI cables so when you're using an HDMI cable, you do have to enable caption decoding within a set-top box if that is how you're getting TV.
However, if you have an analog TiVo or other DVR, or a DVD player with analog outputs like S-video or component video, Samsung unnecessarily made it impossible for some of their HDTVs to decode caption data that could have been sent via those cables at the best resolution possible---and customers who need captions won't know which Samsung HDTVs *will* be able to provide that capability in the future. Samsung should make a public commitment to enable decoding of captions on all analog inputs from now on, otherwise deaf and hard of hearing people will need to warned not to buy Samsung DTV equipment that's not completely functional for their needs. (More than ten percent of the population have hearing loss and this percentage is projected to increase as baby boomers get older.)
Samsung has some other problems with respect to captions as well.
My current Samsung LCD HDTV, less than two months old, doesn't remember where you were in the menu when you come back (like Sharp does), so it takes a really, really long time to set up the advanced closed caption features. (The caption preview is helpful but it's still necessary to see what the captions actually look like against different backgrounds, and the caption menu is buried very deep in the menu.) With Sharp, all I have to do is press the menu button and press the right arrow to go down the necessary levels to get back into the caption menu, but with Samsung, there are numerous pushes of the remote control necessary.
On the default caption mode, the Samsung HDTV doesn't automatically decode CEA-608 caption data if no CEA-708 caption data is being sent, so no captions will show up at all if a station broadcasts only CEA-608 caption data. (My Sharp HDTV, however, *will* automatically decode CEA-608 data if no CEA-708 data is received.)
Samsung HDTV equipment improperly accumulates CEA-708 captions for some programs from some stations, resulting in garbled captions that cover up the screen. I know of three different Samsung equipment owners with this problem, one of which has a Samsung DTV tuner and an HDTV. See the video and pictures that I took of the problems I've experienced:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dana.mulvany/WTTGAndWDCA#
---The menu for the caption button on the remote should definitely be improved to provide direct access to the caption menu for customizing the advanced captions. It would be even better if the owner could customize the menu to his or her own preferences. The choices should be: "On, Off, On with Mute, Analog Captions(CC1), Digital Captions, Settings." The viewer should be able to use the UP button to get to the bottom of the menu, and not be forced to scroll all the way down).
---The caption fonts should be better designed so that they can be larger. There are wide differences in maximum sizes between the caption fonts.
---If the PIP feature is improved to work with the digital tuner, it should continue to show captioning from the tuner in both pictures.
---Samsung very much needs to add the capability of adding channels manually if some channels weren't detected during the automatic scan. Currently, it's impossible to get all the channels from stations that are located at very different angles.
---Samsung should consider adding a smart antenna interface. (OTA reception could get more popular since HD quality is so high over the air.)
Captioning - my own little Tests
by Ivan Awfulitch - 2/14/09 10:37 PM In reply to: Captioning problems and needed improvements by dmulvanyHi dmulvany,
Ack! I wrote you a long detailed message and erased it! Consider yourself lucky, this should be shorter <grin>
Yes, I misunderstood you. I saw digital and set-top boxes and jumped on it being digital. I apologize. It's just that I just got done verifying to someone else that HDMI did pass CC and was on a roll - before I forgot. Again, sorry.
However, your reply made me make a final connection to my month old TV to do some testing. I hooked up my antenna (wanted to get PIP to work - and it does - yea!). Anyways, the CC on the remote finally works as advertised. I also have a VCR/DVD combo hooked up. The VCR uses a composite cable and is hooked up to the AV1 Source which I named VCR. The DVD player can use this connection; but can also use progressive mode if a component cable is hooked up. So I test...
VCR tape using composite cabling on a Tonight Show recording (Source=AV1 named VCR). Pressing CC on the remote brings up the "Caption: On" box and CC actually works. Running a DVD over the same Source brings up the same "Caption: On" box, but no CC text on screen. At first I was confused about the DVD's, since store-bought DVD's usually include subtitles; but then I realized that perhaps you meant home-made DVDs. So I popped in a "Leave it to Beaver" compilation I made from TV Land. Same results - says "Caption: On", but no text. OK, maybe too old? So I insert an X-Files DVD I made. Again, no text on screen where it says it should.
Finally for grins I switch the DVD to component which I have set up as Source=Component2 named DVD. Now here when I press CC on the remote I get a "Not available" box.
So for a "short" answer (believe it or not this is shorter than the original), I actually am able to pass CC from a VCR tape via composite cables that was originally recorded off an antenna. And DVD don't pass CC no way through a component connection; but tries to pass it via composite with no text reaching the screen.
Now mind you this was all done on a 750 series LCD. And again, sorry to waste your time on my babblings...
Now that I read your last reply totally, I now see what you are saying. I looked at your posted pictures. I honestly can say I have never used CC until tonight, but what I've seen tonight is only 3 lines of text max, not like what you show. I did notice a delay on my end, which was kind of annoying. SNL had text from a skit still scrolling while the band was playing into a commercial.
iVAN
Can Samsung HDTV decode captions via COMPONENT input?
by dmulvany - 2/14/09 11:28 PM In reply to: Captioning - my own little Tests by Ivan AwfulitchiVAN, in order to for TVs to decode captions sent from DVD players, progressive scanning must be turned off, and so must upconversion. Analog captions require the VBI (vertical blanking interval) at Line 21 on the TV screen, but both progressive scanning and upconversion appear to eliminate the necessary VBI. So, you'd need to turn off progressive scanning (and upconversion) on your DVD player in order to have any chance of captions being decoded by the *TV,* no matter what kind of analog video cable you are using.
From what I've read, Samsung may not have designed caption decoding capability for component video inputs, but I'd suggest doublechecking this with your HDTV. The fact you can get captioning on your composite inputs suggests you can get captioning via the S-video cable as well (which would be better than composite), but due to Samsung's history, it's unclear what the status would be for component.
Another issue is that the DVDs you used may not have closed caption data recorded on them. Try to find a DVD that has the CC symbol on it or its jackey, or see if a DVD drive on a computer can play captions from the DVD, then play that DVD through your DVD player and component cables (with progressive scanning and upconversion turned off) to see if you can display the captioning from your DVD AND get the best picture quality possible.
The AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com) would probably be a better place to discuss questions about captioning issues outside of Samsung. There's a thread there about HDMI and captioning.
SNL uses live captioning, so a delay can't be helped with that. The accumulating captions I experience on my Samsung isn't experienced from all stations but just a few. My Sharp HDTV responds to the problematic caption data from those stations by not showing any captions at all, whereas the Samsung shows accumulating captions.
Wishlist
by pikoo_avs - 2/13/09 12:41 PM In reply to: Great Idea! by Samsung_HD_Tech
I own a LN46A860. Here is what I really like to see:
1. Revamp Menu system.
a. Please use better font (may be Times New Roman). Menus in a 1080p TV should look 'smart', not 'dumb'.
b. The letters should be sharp and crisp.
c. Even the 'service menu' fonts are so out of focus. (No I didn't go to service menu myself, but watching when service tech was performing his tasks).
d. Make it easy. Too many key strokes to perform some easy task.
2. One dedicated key in the remote which toggles between 2 sets of settings (like 'day-time' with more backlight and 'night-time' with less backlight). It should be smart enough to understand which source you are currently using.
3. Ability to copy all the user menu settings to a USB drive. If you have multiple Samsung TVs this feature will be very handy. Then the menu settings become 'portable'. The 'settings' will also survive this way even after a board change.
4. Whenever the main board changes, the volume becomes '100'. Think about in a quiet home (baby sleeping in another room), the tech changes the main board and he turns on the TV with the volume set to '100' be default. Engineers don't think hard.
5. Pl. train the Samsung 'chat' folks properly. Surely they don't read the samsung bulletins or the cnet forum or avsforum. What a waste of time chatting with them. Even same is true for the 1-800-samsung.
6. The online ticketing system - to describe the problem - only 200 characters are allowed. Are we in 1960's? How can somebody describe a complex problem in 200 characters. There should not be any limit. Man! Disk space is cheap.
7. Infolink: The weather: Should be able to display current day and the forecast together. Not either today or forecast.
Let me know if you really want to do a usability study for your TVs. I can volunteer for that. I think Samsung should seriously think about it.
Search Functionality
by jcindians - 2/27/09 7:25 AM In reply to: Great Idea! by Samsung_HD_Tech
I posted this in another forum but thought this one would be more relevant.
It would be nice to be able to skip from the A's to the R's ,etc. within the artist search. I typically will sort by artist. I think that it would be a good thing to be able jump from one letter to another. Two suggestions as to how to incorporate this are as follows:
1. Utilize the same sort functionality as within the "Title" listing: List artist names under heading 'A', 'B', 'C', etc.
2. Implement a keypad combination method via the remote, like texting, to move between alphabetical listing, e.g. press '2' twice to move to the B's or press '6' twice to skip to the N's
I think that this would be a nice additional feature to have especially when you are looking for a particular song or file.
Thank you for your time.
ht-ws1 soundbar
by mamontano - 5/13/09 4:57 AM In reply to: Great Idea! by Samsung_HD_Tech
Would like to see more optical inputs, maybe even hdmi.
Wishlist
by phugger - 5/13/09 10:06 AM In reply to: Great Idea! by Samsung_HD_Tech
Only one item on my wishlist - DLNA
I have a Series 9 LCD set and the support for DLNA is very poor.
The included Samsung software won't allow network mapped drives.
It doesn't work with TVersity (check their forums).
I'd prefer to not dedicate a PC to act as a streaming server so I have an HP Media Share NAS box.
I have not been able to paly a single video either from my HP streamer or from TVersity - Unsupported format (they aren't).
Samsung is doing something non-standard with their implimentation of DLNA and it doesn't work with a lot of servers. Googling for solutions reveals a lot of frustrated users. Please fix this!
Center channel feature request
by jbhassoc - 12/24/08 6:57 AM In reply to: New Product Feature Idea Wishlist by jbhassocLike to be able to utilize the HDTV speakers for the center channel in a 5.1 setup. Either:
1. by directly connecting to the units speakers from the center channel 8/4 ohm amp output.
2. or with a high level input connection through the HDTV's internal audio amp. Then the sound could be tailored with the bass/treble controls or an equalizer to better match the tone of the left/right external speakers.
HD Tech: This forum does not track views so its hard to tell if it's over looked at the very top. One suggestion might be to sticky this thread just under the "Update to the Samsung Forum... More moderators, More answers" thread". Highlight or separate it. Possibly modify the name to (Samsung 09 hd lcd and new product wish list) or (New HDTV products, ideas and wish list)or something to that effect or even a whole new thread. I'm sure the people on this forum have lots of great product ideas they would like to see implemented. Thanks again.
Great idea.
by Samsung_HD_Tech - 12/28/08 4:56 PM
In reply to: Center channel feature request by jbhassoc
jbhassoc,
I have pinned this thread and renamed it. Thanks for the suggestion! 
And thanks to everyone for their participation so far. I'm diligently tracking these ideas.
--HDTech
imagine the possibilities
- Click here to visit the Samsung forum
- Click here to visit the Samsung store on CNET
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