Windows Vista: Should I wait for Windows 7 or move on to Vista now?
- 1/16/09 4:11 PM
i think part of the problem is...
by Brons2 - 1/25/09 9:46 PM In reply to: I'll be darned by santuccieAMD chips are often sold in lower end machines so there are additional handicaps besides the slightly slower processor. If they come with a lesser hard drive, less memory, a low end motherboard, etc; that all adds to a slower user experience.
I bought my parents a new HP slimline for Christmas with an AMD Athlon X2 4850e which is a 45 watt chip @2.5 Ghz. Coupled with 3GB of RAM and a 250GB hard drive it seems to run Vista 64 very nicely and uses very little power. It's got a GeForce 9300GS which has HDMI out and they've used that feature to watch Blu-Ray on their HD RPTV. Anyways, I digress 
Sometimes
by santuccie - 1/25/09 10:08 PM In reply to: i think part of the problem is... by Brons2But not always. You can be looking at two units side by side, equal in every way except for the processor. If you have the luxury of swapping Intel and AMD processors with the same specs on one mainboard, you will see a difference. Since the Athlon 64 FX-55, AMD has fallen behind and stayed there. Intel chips don't just outperform their AMD equivalents, they mop the floor with them.
That said, makes a big difference if you have a dedicated GPU. But those do up the price a bit. The 9300GS won't bump it up all that much, but it's not a high-end card, either. One thing I have been reading quite a bit lately is that AMD has indeed been making their chips much more efficient, which is good news. I'll tell you what, my Acer notebook has to go on a lapdesk when I'm on it too long; this Athlon TK-53 will seriously try to scorch the pants off my leg!
You may well be right
by cnetmessageman - 1/26/09 12:27 AM In reply to: Understood by santucciebut as M$ has been saying in its defence, many of the problems can be tagged to poorly written device drivers. While I would have firmly agreed with you regarding Vista performance up to November 2008, the "script" flipped in December after applying the latest NVIDIA driver updates and some system tweaks including the excellent free Vista utility by Thoosje. As previously mentioned, the system was an AMD Athlon 64 X2 5500+ with Vista Business and Avast! Antivirus installed.
I also agree that having at least 2GB of RAM is crucial to Vista (although I think that 3GB is the "sweet spot").
Given these changes, it's seems possible that SP2 (along with improving driver support) could improve Vista performance to even grater levels and reduce (a bit) some of the hardware muscle requirements.
If we are going to play the benchmark game, it appears that AMD is also back in the game with the new Phenom II X4 940 and 920 which are on par with their equivalently priced Intel CPU competitors.
I'm not entirely sure about that
by santuccie - 1/26/09 4:39 PM In reply to: You may well be right by cnetmessagemanWhat kind of a fight does a Phenom really put up against an Intel with equivalent specs? One thing it depends on is what is being done. The Phenoms will consume less power than the Core 2 Quads, one of the reasons being that the Core 2s have three times as much cache. For lighter tasks, the lighter Phenom might outrun the Core 2 by a slight margin. But turn up the heat, and you'll find the Phenom has a performance cap that it cannot surpass. Compare it to a stock Corvette vs a Caprice with a big block. The Corvette is lighter, and may accelerate faster; but the Caprice's 502 Rat will catch up and proceed to pull ahead, the Vette dropping farther and farther behind. Vista is not light by any means; even with an unadulterated MS installation, it'll still take as much as 768 MB of RAM just to sit there and look pretty. And if you go x64, then you're going to want 4 GB minimum. 2 gigs will not cut it; x64 takes a few hundred megs more than x86.
The Phenoms are still built on K8 architecture, and cannot utilize anything more than 4 MB cache. In addition, they can't get much faster than a couple gigahertz. To further complicate things, Intel is slashing prices on the low end, while making up for it on the high end where it has no competition. AMD has held its position in the past by launching a price war, but they can't afford to do that now. If you have a link to a review that shows the Phenom keeping up with a Core 2 clock-for-clock, I'd like to read about it. What I'm finding is that AMD continues to slip behind. We won't even talk about the i7, because it's in a class by itself. Besides, most of us don't want to pay for it anyway.
I agree that Vista will continue to mature. Since SP1, it is already running faster and considerably more stable than the '06 release. XP got slower with SP2, but of course performance had nothing to do with its release. The goal at that time was security (which means little against modern malware, hence the launch of Invincible Windows), and SP3 sped it back up a bit. But Microsoft knows what people have to say about Vista, and I suspect performance will remain on the to-do list at least until Windows 7 assumes control of the market.
You're right about device drivers. And I'm glad you mentioned it, because I'd completely spaced it out. I don't know what your position is on this subject, but personally, I trust Toshiba and HP the most. IBM is considered best in the mainstream, but like Sony and Apple, I think they charge too much for too little. While we're still on the subject of devices, I will go back to graphics controllers. Yes, AMD's processors have better integrated video, but that's only necessary if you're doing something beyond watching DVDs and playing games with low-end to middle-of-the-road graphics requirements. For most users, X3100 is all you need. If you need more, you might as well get something with a GPU and leave a little growing room. You'll need it before long.
Personally, I don't believe in tweaker programs. It's easier and safer IMO to go through which autostart programs and services are/aren't needed via the standard routes (including Admin Tasks, not just Configuration). I use WinDoctor after installing software (and Revo to uninstall), and you could also run EasyCleaner along with NTRegOpt to clean and defrag the registry, but not before backing it up. One thing Vista does to boost responsiveness is cache a bunch of frequently used programs to memory, saving HDD seek time during the session. But the pagefile is still an issue, as is bootup. I swear by PerfectDisk.
I believe I mentioned in a previous post that having no antimalware monitors makes a huge difference in performance (and stability). If you leave UAC enabled, Vista will be pretty much invulnerable to drive-by downloads and buffer overflow attacks. If you still need something to scan e-mail attachments (I prefer VirusTotal myself), or if you occasionally download something from a potentially dodgy Web site, then you could install something like AntiVir and disable the Guard. You'll still have automatic updating and a right-click context menu, but without the unnecessary performance hit.
Tweaker programs have a tendency to make your system unstable, if not make you do without. To each his own, but like I said previously, I have very high standards for performance and stability, as well as usability. If I only needed to surf the Web and open e-mail, then I'd save myself some money and go with Linux. But I do too many different things on my machines (like using a scanner, for starters).
Some important numbers are missing
by cnetmessageman - 1/26/09 5:15 PM In reply to: I'm not entirely sure about that by santuccieI haven't read the rest of your post but just want to point out that I think you missed the fact that I was referring to the Phenom II X4 which is quite different from the Phenom (re: the limitations that you mentioned).
See ZDNET or AnandTech and some of the other super tech sites for their benchmark testing results and discussion. These chips were just recently released. In the testers words, "these CPUs get AMD back in the game".
Cheers.
Thanks for the correction
by santuccie - 1/26/09 5:58 PM In reply to: Some important numbers are missing by cnetmessagemanSorry, I missed the II bit. I just looked it up on ZDNET. It will support 8 MB of cache, still DDR2, not DDR3. It will be cheaper than the i7, but won't match it, much less the QX9770. The fact that it costs much less than the others is appealing, but die-hard gamers won't go for it.
Quite True
by cnetmessageman - 1/26/09 9:34 PM In reply to: Thanks for the correction by santuccieI am not a GAMER (just an older IT guy) so the Bleeding Edge isn't where I or most practical people want or need to be. What the cutting edge technology does do is point to the wave of the future. Likewise this implementation of the Phenom is but a stepping stone to the Phenom III (not that far off) which will not only support DDR3 (memory which is quite expensive right now) but will also be backward compatible to the AM2+ motherboards that currently support the Phenom II and DDR2 memory. Supposedly it will be a competitor to the i7 but this remains to be seen.
Yes, if you are a hard core GAMER (and money is burning a hole in your pocket) then the i7 is definitely king of the hill at this point.
I agree that Spyware programs and Antivirus can have a huge impact on system performance. I've stripped the Symantec beast from many systems and replaced it with either Avast! or BitDefender. I been considering the Invincible Windows methodology but haven't implemented it yet.
I mentioned the Thoosje Vista Tweaker utility because it takes a very conservative approach (as does the version for XP). However, coming from a long IT background, I always stress that having a backup is not an option it is a necessity (preferably an image backup). For this function I like Acronis Workstation with Universal Restore since it allows you to restore to completely different hardware in necessary.
I recently read about VirusTotal but I haven't used it yet. A personal negative experience with Threatfire prompts me to warn you about using this antispyware utility. Near the end of the install, it rebooted my computer without a proper shutdown. Then on bootup, it disabled the Ctrl-Alt-Del login. Fortunately I simply did a restore from my image backup.
Microsoft has a free utility that defrags the Paging file. And for disk defrag, I have been impressed with Diskkeeper (but it is a bit expensive for a one-trick pony).
I have enjoyed this exchange, thank you. I hope you found some thing of value (as I did) in the communication.
Thank you as well
by santuccie - 1/27/09 12:58 AM In reply to: Quite True by cnetmessagemanHi,
I'm actually not a gamer at all; the only games I play that are newer than 8-bit NES games are basically Minesweeper and the freebies at MiniClip.com. And the fanciest video editing I ever get into is recording the screen and sound with Fraps or Debut, and then trimming the ends and converting to DVD video with NeroVision. The point I was making was that hard-core gamers would likely pass right over the Phenom II and go straight for the QX9770 or the i7. And on the low end, C2D outshines Turion 64 X2 in a big way with Vista Aero. Of course most people would probably be perfectly happy with the Turion; my problem is that I'm spoiled.
I encourage you to give the Invincible Windows method a go when you have the chance. Although I haven't gotten around to adding an extra page yet, there is a technique that makes the XP lockdown method as easy to manage as Vista. Basically, when you are running with an account that is locked out of system32 and drivers, all you have to do in order to install new software is to right-click the executable installer, select the "Run as" menu option, and authenticate the administrator account (or another account with full privileges). This way, you can just leave these folders locked down, and forget about malware. You'll still want to disable Arovax Shield, or you can just do without it. The system services, drivers, and API are the only things that really matter.
VirusTotal isn't antispyware, it's a Web site where you can upload e-mail attachments and have them scanned with 39 (and counting) different AV engines. They used to limit uploads to 10 MB, but were good enough to double it when Gmail started allowing attachments up to 20 MB. I'm familiar with Diskeeper (makers of Windows Disk Defragmenter), and did a review of defraggers once for Ian "Gizmo" Richards. I personally think PerfectDisk does a more thorough job than Diskeeper, and would be the only one that does. Also, the fact that I've yet to have it cripple a system during an offline defrag is a plus (IOBit has done it to me once before, and Diskeeper on two or three different machines). Acronis is the best. The latest consumer versions seem to be able to port an image as well, but I can't say this for certain until I try it on a machine with a different chipset.
I've enjoyed our discussion as well. I had no idea that AMD had finally broken the 45 nm barrier until you told me. And I'm glad they seem to be hanging in there; we need the competition. You know as well as I do what Intel would do the moment they got news of AMD going under, and I've already had my fill of price gouging from Big Oil!
P.S. to santuccie
by cnetmessageman - 1/27/09 8:49 AM In reply to: Thank you as well by santuccieThanks for the final bit of advice. I'd read another of your earlier responses (elsewhere) that mentioned "Invincible Windows" and was intrigued so I "Googled" and copied the web page for later analysis. On my Windows 2000 system I had implemented the basic approach of setting up a general user profile and an admin profile. Worked with that for a while but it quickly got frustrating since certain programs require admin privileges to LOAD at startup. Since I automatically surf and email very selectively and cautiously (as well as scan frequently), I've had virtually no infection issues for many years. However, some of the latest developments in web-based attacks give me great pause. I believe that my cautions to wife and child have been heeded so the XPs and Apple systems are relatively immune (and I have an image backup in case disaster strikes). Unfortunately this wasn't the case a couple years ago when the NAILS virus struck my wife's laptop. It took many man hours to clean it off the laptop but at least it didn't cause any major damage.
My major concerns lie with friends, associates, and clients. So an approach that doesn't require the user to ensure that the antivirus is updated is a boon. In addition, this approach would simultaneously eliminate the performance robing necessity of loading an active antivirus. Definitely worth looking into.
So far Yahoo's online scan for email attachments has been very effective. But again I approach all email with a elevated level of caution. I am thinking of moving/adding email via GMX. The company is base in Europe (the UK, I think). Do you know anything about this company?
PCWorld has recommended using VirusTotal, so I had intended looking into it. I have become somewhat cautious of the magazine's more recent recommendations, however, since further research and/or personal experience has been quite negative. Your recommendation encourages me to checkout VirusTotal sooner rather than later.
MBAM by Malewarebites seems to be an excellent spyware scanner. It's been recommended by ZDNET, Tech Republic, and a number of industry magazines. It seems to live up to it's reputation when I scanned all my home based systems (XP Laptop & Desktop, and W2K Desktop) although my two other tools, "Spybot S&D" (used for years and appreciate its advance tools except Tea-Time) and "PC Health Optimizer" by Retina Studio had caught most of the vermin. I use to use Ad aware but dropped it after the 2008 version (significantly more aggressive than the previous version) trashed by W2K system. This was pre-Acronis so I eventually ended up having to reinstalling the entire system.
Regards.
P.P.S.:
by santuccie - 1/27/09 4:34 PM In reply to: Thank you as well by santuccieHi,
I was waiting for you to bring up limited user accounts. I have no use for them, one reason being File & Printer Sharing. Also, I've found that a limited account alone does not fully block access to the API; without discreet "Deny" write entries for system32 and drivers, modern worms like Mebroot can still get through. Even in late September and early October of 2006, I watched SQL Slammer and Stack Bot ransack a limited account and install an IRC Flood Trojan. Before I learned to take advantage of NTFS advanced permissions settings, my solution was a DPI or NIP firewall. The lockdown method eliminates the need, and even protects you from malicious autoruns on removable media, as well as most other locally executed parasites.
There was a critical emergency bulletin (MS08-067) released awhile back that is supposed to address the vulnerability exploited by the latest worms. I should let you know that most scanners (including rootkit scanners) will never see Mebroot. Not even IceSword or Trend Micro's Rootkit Buster can see it. It is classified as a "super Trojan," and it creates a rootkit in the MBR. This sucker flies right under the radar; no crashes, no freezes, no sluggishness... nothing. Conficker is comparably stealthy, but also much more aggressive; Conficker may cripple parts of your system. With Mebroot, the only way for you to know it's there is to be looking for it. GMER catches it by locating a copy of the original MBR on sector 62. You might give it and MSRT a go, just in case. When all else fails, Acronis is the cure-all. The most secure computer is one that is backed up.
I've never heard of GMX before. I found a review here, including 5 user opinions that look rather negative. On the plus side, you can send messages up to 50 MB. On the minus side, GMX doesn't support encryption. I would never go for something like that. My e-mail apparatus consists of Gmail, Mozilla Thunderbird, and MailWasher Pro. Cheers!
Security Question
by cnetmessageman - 2/15/09 8:08 AM In reply to: Understood by santuccieMember Santucci,
if you are still monitoring this thread I need to discuss some of your "Invincible Windows" methodology. I have tried to figure out a more direct means of contacting you but there doesn't seem to be one even from the Web/Blog itself.
Anyway if you get this please let me know.
Thanks.
Hi,
Visit the homepage again. There's a new link under my mug.
Great
by cnetmessageman - 2/16/09 5:39 AM In reply to: E-mail by santuccieThanks much. I sent you an email using the "Questions" link.
Cheers
Agreed
by originalmike007 - 1/28/09 12:20 AM In reply to: CPU Options by cnetmessagemanShould have specified I was talking about running Vista. Thought it was clear by leaving XP options open earlier. Though it won't hurt to be running XP on a C2D especially with how much more efficient the C2D chips are over the Pentiums. Also with C2D there are many more pre-assembled choices.
I should also point out that AMD offers several good processors and MBs for running XP. Furthermore I would recommend almost any AMD quad core over any C2D quad, especially for the prices. At least up to the i7.
Why do you need an OS upgrade?
by stringboy - 1/20/09 5:37 AM In reply to: Should I wait for Windows 7 or move on to Vista now? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Why do you need an OS upgrade? Is there something you can't do in XP? How long do you plan to keep the new machine? If you are going to fork over money for something, including paying to be back down to XP, it should have a purpose.
If you won't need new software, I prefer XP. I know where things are in the control panel and I it has the most hardware drivers for compatibility.
If you think you need something new, skip Vista only because 7 is so close to production, even if it is only a year.
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