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Home audio & video: $180 Power Conditioner vs. $2 Radio Shack surge protector
...yep, and that's excatly what I'm
by sws1967 - 1/9/09 5:09 PM In reply to: None to found! by jcrobsostarting to think! (assuming by "FUD" you meant...uh, not true?) I guess that was really my point...I've studied the theory, and I see no basis for the claims made, but I've also not seen any good evidence. So...now I'm really interested in finding out what's really going on, and if this is all a bunch of marketing crap (which is what I expect now), I'll post my reviews on these products accordingly.
For the record, I grew up in Michigan in the 70s/80s, with major thunderstorms and lightning. I played guitar and owned "expensive" amps and stereo gear which was ALWAYS plugged directly into the wall. Not once did I ever have a surge problem or distortion issue...so, now out here in "no-weather" California, I'm really doubtful about the need for any of this expensive stuff. It looks cool, but I need proof before I waste my money.
noise in the coax...
by sws1967 - 1/8/09 9:39 PM In reply to: It depends on your case. I do have a Monster HT line by NM_BillYour situation is actually pretty straight forward if I understand it correctly...you had your cable line running into a surge protector, and then into the cable box, and in that case it INTRODUCED distortion into your signal, because it was an inferior unit. It makes sense that you would see an improvement by running the signal through something better....
In my case, however, I could care less about the coax - I rent the box and if a surge smokes it, well then they can give me a new one. I'm certainly NOT convinced that a surge will pass from Coax, through the cable box, down the HDMI cable and into my gear (especially through a 24-28 AWG cable), so I run the cable coax directly into the cable box.
What I'm really looking for is why Samsung (or any other TV manufacturer) would "require" a consumer to use a power conditioner with "filtering" to "clean the dirty A/C" and thereby prevent distortion of their picture. In this case, I'm assuming a relatively stable situation to begin with, i.e., not the problem you mention, but how "conditioning the power supply" alone can keep noise out of a video signal that is NOT filtered by the "power supply."
(NT) Have you tried the Samsung forum thread?
by NM_Bill - 1/9/09 12:20 PM In reply to: noise in the coax... by sws1967...hmm, that's where I thought I was...
by sws1967 - 1/9/09 12:35 PM In reply to: (NT) Have you tried the Samsung forum thread? by NM_BillThat's a good question...and I thought I had started this thread inside of the Samsung forum - at least that's what I meant to do:)
...mmm, did I start this in the wrong place? This is about the first time that I've participated in this kind of thing. I really would like to hear from an engineer from Samsung, and it was the "New Samsung forum" bit that I read that got me started...I'm an electrical engineer (degreed), but my focus was/is optics, so aside from the theory, I have no knowledge of common consumer products.
If this is outside of the Samsung forum, then it's my mistake...I'll take a look.
The Samsung thread is near the top of the list of threads
by NM_Bill - 1/9/09 12:50 PM In reply to: ...hmm, that's where I thought I was... by sws1967here in the Home Audio & Video. We do have a Samsung employee with the moniker of Mr. Samsung who posts here from time to time.
As a Samsung owner I have had problematic experience with Samsung customer relations. I was persistent enough that I was then given the phone number for "Executive Customer Relations." Persistence was again called for. It took 6 months to resolve a warranty problem.
We do occasionally get EEs posting here as well as equally technologically knowledgeable. I am merely an old small time audiophile.
But, take a moment to consider your reference to a $2 surge protector. Frankly, that sounds a bit high handed. Since surge protection is vital, won't you consider one rated for a high amount of joules? My old unit which introduced interference was not a $2 unit but around $40.
...the surge protectors were $7
by sws1967 - 1/9/09 1:00 PM In reply to: The Samsung thread is near the top of the list of threads by NM_Billfor 3 strips on clearance at Radio Shack...it wasn't my intent to be "high-handed," although I can see how maybe it came accross that way. In this case, I'm being literal. I'm using a $2.50 surge protector that is rated as follows:
UL suppressed voltage: 330V (L-N, L-G, N-G)
Max Surge Voltage: 6000V
In addition, they carry a $30,000 guarantee. I don't have the Joule rating in front of me now, but it was around half of the Monster HTS1000 rating.
Anyway, you are right that I posted in the wrong forum - thanks, for the heads-up. My post, however, is meant to be an honest, literal comparison.
Being very literal myself, I think in terms of proportional
by NM_Bill - 1/9/09 1:22 PM In reply to: ...the surge protectors were $7 by sws1967response to problems.
I don't use a line conditioner for my personal audio. But is it folly to spend for a surge unit with very high joules ratings as an appropriate response to danger; & hence insurance because my speakers are $4000, my receiver is $4000 & my disk player is $1500. Those numbers were very serious expense for me. Only because I consider this my final & ultimate outfit after 50 years of loving recorded music. I sure as hell never let my wife know what these things were costing.
So, with a serious investment, why not regard $50 as reasonable for that level of surge protection. By the way, our moderator is an advocate of daisy chaining his whole house with multiple units for a redundancy of extra protection level. Still, nothing can guarantee you from a near hit of lightning. I have experienced ball lightning coming down & out the chimney & bouncing to a nearby wall, burning the wallpaper.
I also had a $20 surge unit save my computer a few years back by sacrificing itself by melting. Cheap insurance when the power company was changing out the nearby pole transformer. The workers wired it backwards. Talk about big surge. The next door social security office had their fluorescent lights melted as well as all 20 of their computers.
That is why I am inclined to spend more than the minimum for surge protection.
...well, with that much invested...
by sws1967 - 1/9/09 4:09 PM In reply to: Being very literal myself, I think in terms of proportional by NM_Billyep...we are on different $$ scales here also. My Receiver is a new Denon 588, which I'm very happy with for the task, but it costs around $300 ($600 total with the Boston Acoustic MCS130 speakers). My DVD is Sony and under $200, but the TV is $2000 (which is why I'm more concerned about the TV). So...you can see why spending $200 on a power strip, when my A/V receiver was only $300 makes me wonder...anyway, my gear is under $30,000 which is the warranty "protection" available with my $2 strip.
And...I have a hard time seeing that a surge is going to blow past even a cheap surge protector AND past the unit's fuse, and then smoke my TV? (lightning strikes excepted, which I don't need to worry about...we have more earthquakes than lightning:). Like I said, EE or not, I'm new to this and I could be wrong...
Keep it cheap
by Rick Cavaretti - 1/10/09 3:31 PM In reply to: $180 Power Conditioner vs. $2 Radio Shack surge protector by sws1967The age of the house really doesn't have much to do with it, directly. If there are a minimum numbers of circuits on a house, I've seen the line voltage dip a bit when too much current was being pulled...the dimming lights are giveaway. Most modern electronics have voltage regulators and dedicated input circuits in them to deal with this. As for dirty AC, have you ever hooked up an oscope to one of your outlets? My waveforms are perfect. This is coming from the electric company, not from a cheap $20 inverter putting out a modified sine wave (sawtooth, say it!) you picked up at the swapmeet. A surge protector is all you need. Whether it's a cheapo or expensive unit, most of them have a simple, cheap MOV (metal oxide varistor) in them to clamp the voltage. When it blows, it's just like a fuse, except more charred and smelly.
...yep, the lights do dim...
by sws1967 - 1/11/09 12:23 PM In reply to: Keep it cheap by Rick CavarettiAs a matter of fact, yesterday, we had an under-voltage condition, but no big deal...the TV shut down for a minute and then came back up, and the "Monster HTS1000 MKSIII wxyz" unit would have simply done the same thing - it says it "disconnects the power until voltage comes back up"; well it looks like my TV can do that all by itself for free (note that I have an LCD).
I've never put a scope on my home's AC, but maybe I will someday...my guess is I also have a nice sine wave, and for the occasional "brown-out," well, maybe I just won't watch TV for that .1 second? I agree with your assessment...my "Monster..." is already back in the packaging and will be on its way to Circuit City soon...:)
well in my case
by iaquino2002 - 1/11/09 7:57 AM In reply to: $180 Power Conditioner vs. $2 Radio Shack surge protector by sws1967My house was build in the fifties with a not so updated electrical wiring and the area experiences a lot of dipps in power ,and so all my power outlet that has large appliances and electrical equipments are connected to UPS and APC is my brand of choice .But I am lucky I didnt buy these guys at retail.My intertainment system ie Samsung Plasma,Reciever,PC Media center are connected to the APC model with the power conditioner in it.
However in the long run ,(when we have the budget) I will have to update the house's electrical system to filter and clean the area's fluctuating power supply.
...why UPS for appliances?
by sws1967 - 1/11/09 1:53 PM In reply to: well in my case by iaquino2002I'm seeing a lot of recomendations for UPS, but why would you need that for consumer appliances, or a TV and A/V receiver? If you have a computer controlling some object that is expensive and can be damaged without that control, then okay, I understand the need...or if you are using a desktop with no battery (I use laptops) then I can see how you might want UPS to keep from losing a file in the rare situation that power dies.
Aside from that...so what if your fridge, dishwasher, laptop computer, TV or A/V stuff experiences a loss of power? What will happen? They'll shut down, as if you hit the power switch, and then come back on...even appliances (Air conditioner, fridge) that use compressors already have built-in protection...at least they should. Anyway, why the need for UPS?
a ups is good for anything with circuts and s expensive
by mementh - 1/11/09 2:16 PM In reply to: ...why UPS for appliances? by sws1967a ups is good for anything with circuts and s expensive
going from your quote here, the circuts for the fridge/dishwasher might not be as vunerable as feared but a UPS does not hurt, but no proof it helps (point to you)
Laptops, Computers (in general), and TV's (and there accessories)
REQUIRE UPS's due to all the high cost of replacing them.
If a computer browns out the low voltage can cause things to mess up in the cpu or ram or the motherboard. ( As I understand it, browning out the power to a computer can cause the parts i listed to short at times destroying them and damaging the device)
TV's and accessories are the same deal somewhat. Some TV's want to cool there cpu/bulbs after the power goes off to cool them off and extend the life of the appliance.
I know a TV or accessory can be damaged just like a computer can with a undervoltage short.
Plus the noise or other line issues that are real. Someone mentioned saying th power company's power is 100% clean, sorry it may be good for your area at times, but there are always issues at sometimes, and its even worse if you loose power because surges/brownouts in the voltage that happens when it restarts after a blackout as as bad as the loss of power itself.
When you power a device down properly, you give it a chance to clean itself out of all the power and make sure it can start up properly next time.
|Aside from that...so what if your fridge, dishwasher, laptop |computer, TV or A/V stuff experiences a loss of power? What will |happen? They'll shut down, as if you hit the power switch, and then |come back on...even appliances (Air conditioner, fridge) that use |compressors already have built-in protection...at least they should. |Anyway, why the need for UPS?
...if a TV "requires" a UPS, then...
by sws1967 - 1/11/09 3:24 PM In reply to: a ups is good for anything with circuts and s expensive by mementhYou have just revisted my original question: If the TV "requires" a UPS (or any other gadget) as you state, then why doesn't the TV manufacturer state that in their manual?
I've read my whole LN52A750 manual, and no where does Samsung even recomend a power conditioner or UPS in order for it to be safe and function properly. Of course, it can't hurt - except for your wallet...and it's hard for me reconcile using some gadget that doesn't make sense to me electronically (otherwise, what was the point of all that schooling?).
My TV came with a warranty, and that warranty is NOT conditional upon having the power supply on a UPS or "power conditioning unit" (surge protection is a different issue). I'm concerned that we're all being "taken" by the EE voodoo science...has anybody read that their TV/other gear "requires" a UPS or conditioner?
As far as the power company sending 100% clean power...well if you can't see or hear the difference, then what IS the difference? If it is only occasional, then why spend the money?
I don't understand what you mean by a "undervoltage short"? If your AC supply shorts, you will have 0V on to the input stage, and your TV wouldn't know the difference. I don't see how a brown-out can damage a TV - if the voltage is too low, the input stage will send 0V DC to your TV, i.e., "off." It is true, however, that the "in-rush current" after power is restored can be high (only transient though)...but, that's why the surge protector is there.
Incidently, my $180 Monster gadget warranty is void in my case, since I'm not running my cable coax through it. Funny enough, my warranty on my $2 Radio Shack unit is more protective in my case:)
Appreciate the input, but I can't let it die until I understand from Samsung (my TV), why they would build a TV that requires this extra gear (or not), and then not mention it in the manual? If I need a UPS, fine, that should be clear from the manufacturer...same goes for "dirty AC filtering."
There are several comments/questions that you can't let die.
by NM_Bill - 1/11/09 3:47 PM In reply to: ...if a TV "requires" a UPS, then... by sws1967That is sort of an unrealistic attitude. If your questions are Samsung specific, for heavens sake pose those questions to Samsung.
You intend to be pretty much as cheap as possible when confronting things like surge protectors. Extra measures of joules come with additional increments of cost, but they seem not excessive to me.
If you insist on valuing your Radio Shack $2 warranty, why bother us with it? And you state your TV came with a warranty. Well yes, but testing the veracity of it is not a worthwhile proposition/goal. I hope you selected it with some mind to quality.
We are mostly a good intentions forum here. Especially considering your ample educational level, I don't understand why you haven't been in touch with Samsung technical service.
Questions are fine. I won't however entertain a battle of semantics. Let simple facts be simple facts. Give it a rest, dude.
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