Car Tech: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?
- 5/3/07 11:55 AM
Hybrid - NO! Alternative? - Whut fuel you talkin' about?
by OldGrumpy - 5/28/07 10:58 AM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Hybrid: Initial cost is too much for the amount of gasoline saved.
PLUS (what no one ever seems to want to talk about) -- how long does the hybrid's battery package last and how much does it cost to replace it when it dies? Proponents seem to dance around this question without a straight answer.
Greens, who have a cow over the appropriate disposal of a little old AAA flashlight battery are silent about the disposal and replacement of the hybrid's massive, high voltage batteries. Why?
What effect does cold (or hot) weather have on the efficiency as well as the life of the hybrid's batteries (for those of us who don't live in California)?
I suspect the reason for the silence is because an honest answer to the questions would kill all interest in buying such a car, not to mention the economic incentive. But, I'm always ready to learn if I'm wrong.
I'm glad you're ready to learn ...
by geeman1082 - 5/28/07 7:05 PM In reply to: Hybrid - NO! Alternative? - Whut fuel you talkin' about? by OldGrumpy... because you have apparently bought into some of the anti-hybrid hype ... please allow me to respond to your questions and comments, and I applaud you keeping an open mind ...
At least some of the hybrids available today will in fact pay for the extra expense with fuel usage savings ... the general rule of thumb for a Prius is 4-5 years ... folks that say otherwise are either using extreme examples (e.g., some of the pickup or SUV hybrids use the electric motor more for HP, not fuel savings) or they aren't comparing apples to apples (e.g., they compare a loaded Prius with a base-model Civic) ... and when you toss in a tax credit, the financial equation works out just fine, thank you very much.
The reason you don't hear folks talking about limited battery life is because the hybrids have only been around about 8 years in the US, so the first batches of batteries are just now coming out of warranty ... but you can bet if there had been a bunch of warranty replacements that the manufacturers would have been pushing the battery makers to improve them a lot over the years ...
The NiMH batteries in a hybrid are recycled, not disposed of ... almost nothing is wasted.
I can't speak specifically to your final question, but I know folks from MN to AZ who have hybrids and I haven't heard them complaining about cold or hot weather performance.
As you can see if you read this entire thread, hybrids are definitely not for everyone ... and that's okay for me, because otherwise I would still be waiting for the supply to catch up so I could buy one without paying sticker (or more) ...
Regards,
Greg
you've bought into a lot of the anti-hybrid FUD
by cwerdna - 5/28/07 11:14 PM In reply to: Hybrid - NO! Alternative? - Whut fuel you talkin' about? by OldGrumpyYou've bought into a lot of the anti-hybrid FUD as someone else points out.
See below regarding the costs.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7811_102-0.html?forumID=78&threadID=246092&messageID=2491286#2491286
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7811_102-0.html?forumID=78&threadID=246092&messageID=2492056#2492056
Besides whether or not it saves any money, why does it always have to be about that? How much did a V8 engine save you? How about a sunroof? They're features and you'll never seen any articles about how V8s and sunroofs save $ because they don't. Think about hybrids as having another technology that puts out less pollution (see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm), recaptures and repurposes energy that would otherwise be waste heat and brake test and uses less oil, most of which comes from foreign countries (some of them in unstable regions or who don't like us).
As for the HV battery, it is warranted for 10 years/150K miles on the Prius and Civic hybrid in CA and a couple states in the NE. The batteries are recycled. See http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html. If you've got some to dispose of, Toyota will give you a $200 bounty.
http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm is at 285K miles on his previous gen Prius on the original battery. http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/taxi put 200K miles on his previous gen Prius in 25 months. Per http://online.wsj.com/public/article/PR-CO-20070522-905404-KO8A18uhP7irzpZE6Bd6X5w2rPc_20070522.html?mod=wsjcrmain and http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/03/ford-escape-hybrid-taxis-top-175-000-miles/, 18 Ford Escape hybrids (they use Sanyo batteries vs. Panasonic/Matsushita batts on Toyotas) have exceeded 175K miles within 2 years.
cold
by cb_anthony - 5/29/07 8:29 AM In reply to: Hybrid - NO! Alternative? - Whut fuel you talkin' about? by OldGrumpyIn terms of hot and cold efficiency, from what I've read, it depends on the situation.
Concerning the Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH); some first generation HCH owners have said that the '06 and '07 model hybrids take longer to engage all of their energy saving technology than the previous generation. I am not sure, but I believe it is because some of the tech won't engage until the engine is sufficiently warm. It seems that Honda has made some software changes from the first generation HCHs to the current. This would lead to reduced fuel economy in comparison to the older model for shorter duration trips. Considering that all cars (correct me if I'm wrong) have worse gas mileage before the engine is warm, this seems not uncommon.
It stands to reason that if the weather is sufficiently cold, it might delay a hybrid's engine from warming up as quickly as a larger more powerful engine that doesn't share part of it's burden with an electric motor. I have read some reviews of the '06 HCH on Cnet that suggest it does get poorer gas mileage during the cold winter months, but I have not experienced it personally, yet.
Another thing to consider would be the possibility that the battery might be less efficient in extreme cold. Can someone weigh in with some information on cold and it's effect on battery efficiency?
gas engine temperature
by geeman1082 - 5/29/07 9:10 AM In reply to: cold by cb_anthonyyes, the hybrids do try to keep the engine "warmed up" to increase overall fuel economy, and of course there are always trade-offs, which in this case would include efficiency on short trips in cold weather ...
battery efficiency definitely varies with temperature ... in fact, batteries seem to prefer temperature ranges quite similar to those preferred by humans, so my understanding is that most hybrids circulate cabin air through their battery compartments to help maintain that efficiency as best they can ...
LOVE our Prius!!!
by mavican - 7/6/07 10:05 PM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
When we ordered our 2004 Toyota Prius in the fall of 2003, we were willing to make some compromises to drive a car that would have very low polluting emissions and excellent fuel economy. When our Prius arrived, we discovered that we had made no compromises at all. Our Prius is roomy, comfortable, peppy, and more fun to drive than any other car we have ever owned.
Now that we have had our Prius for four years, and it has taken us through four Canadian winters, it still drives like new and achieves the same great fuel economy as when it was brand new. We love our Prius, and we could not be happier with our choice of hybrid vehicle. I'd buy another Prius in a minute, except for the fact that ours is still running like new and keeping us happy. Based on our positive early-adopter experience, many of our friends and family now want to buy a Prius.
An extra bonus is that we have met so many friendly Prius owners (on the road and on discussion groups).
Yes, I would, and indeed I did
by Scott Gardener - 7/8/07 3:27 PM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I've got the Lexus RX400h. My wife and I are painfully luxury-minded, but we want to live green as well. She wanted an SUV in about the RX's size range, so it was down to it and its mainstream Toyota sibling, the Highlander hybrid limited. The Lexus won out for its more solid build and more luxurious interior.
The hybrid version of the RX at the dealership was a lot fewer in numbers than the RX350. In choosing a model, they had a white one there, a black one due to arrive in a few days, and a silver one that might have been available if delivered from the Northeast. That was it for the next three or four months. (We got the black one.) The demand is obviously there; why aren't they making more luxury hybrids?
Right now, Lexus is the only luxury brand making hybrids. They're rolling out a hybrid version of each of their models about one a year, with hybrid models right now of the RX, GS, and LS. Given the performance boosts alone, I'm really surprised that even Toyota is dragging its feet in offering a hybrid sports car--sure, they've got great concept cars like the Volta, but there's no hybrid sports cars on any of the dealer's lots. (The Lexus GS460h comes close, but it's more a comfy sedan that happens to perform. For the same money, sports car enthusiasts will gravitate instead towards a Corvette Z06 or an entry level Porsche.) There's also a lot of luxury-minded people who want to live green but don't want to give up leather interiors, roomy cabins, or V10 engines. Why can't Cadillac, Lincoln, Infiniti, Mercedes, and the like see the untapped potential here?
I'm also hoping that Toyota will give Lexus more emphasis on manufacturing hybrid models in higher volume, so we can see more of them on the road.
Waiting for Hybrid diesels or next gen Tech
by bennetts77833 - 2/23/08 10:31 AM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
My 15 year old automatic Alfa Romeo sedans and Spider (convertible) are in the 25+ mpg Highway mileage range. They're fun to drive and paid for and I can maintain them for much less than a car payment.
I'm hoping to see in the next two or so years major advances in efficiency by all the manufacturers. If VW had a TDI EOS now I'd look at it. If I had to buy a car this year, I'd look at the Mercedes C-class diesel (Hint, Hint, when will the blu-tech trickle down to the C class?) or the Jag that is rumored to be coming.
But for now, I'm in a wait see mode.
Hybrids are slowly getting better. Ethanol is not the answer
by citroen2cv6 - 2/23/08 10:40 AM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I must admit that trying a Ford Escape did impress me with how good some things are coming along, it does drive in the batt mode. I don't expect to put my hands in my pocket for one anytime soon. A diesel hybrid that uses capacitors, and not batteries, would probably do it for me.Ethanol made from corn, especially using fertilizer made from Natural gas is just plain stupid. Ethanol made from wood waste is OK. Propane is a very clean burning fuel but the kits are getting scarcer. Still on the sidelines for now. John.
Maybe someday...And the only thing holding me back is PRICE.
by aaasolanki - 2/24/08 4:39 AM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
---Till the day a hybrid's prices come down to a gasoline car level, I can't even think of buying one. They are still ridiculously expensive (I understand that millions, if not billions of $ have gone into their R&D, but still, the prices look steep. At most I can think of paying a 25% premium to a similarly sized gasoline car, considering the fuel savings (not to mention the environmental savings)...
---I find the talk of 'performance' of hybrids amusing.
What's the point in a car being capable of doing 0-100 mph in 10 seconds, if the nearest car is just 10 metres ahead of you!!!
Thanks, 'Dexter'.
Hybrid? Maybe someday.
by brahda808 - 3/6/08 12:52 AM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I live in Hawaii where regular gas cost $3.919 a gallon. The wife and I were looking at the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. We looked at the price differece between the Highlander Limited and Hybrid, then did the math. If we were to purchase the more expensive Hybrid model, it would take us 10 years to make up the difference in gas savings. That was ridiculous. We probably wouldn't keep it 10 years! It would be cheaper for us to purchase the Limited with lower mpg, than get the Hybrid. Until prices for Hybrid vehicles come down, we will stick to non-hybrid models.
I already own a hybrid or alternative-fuel car (Which one,
by rws277 - 11/24/08 10:07 AM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I currently own a Prius. This is my second one. I personally think they are great vehicles. I also own a Corvette and a Mercedes. I think they're all great ,just in they're own way.
hybrid or alternative-fuel car
by lwsterrittt - 11/24/08 12:35 PM In reply to: Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I would not consider buying a hybrid or alternative fuel car. The most popular hybrid has 30 lbs of nickel in the battery pack. Massive environmental damage is done extracting Ni from the earth. Some of those mines are now being closed (good luck replacing the batteries). The next generation batteries are Lithium Ion. There is not enough Lithium in the earth to build out the contemplated fleet of electric cars (see Forbes special issue on energy). Building out a significant number of plug-in cars requires a new electric grid and many new coal fired power plants. Clean coal is a fantasy. Alternative fuels: Ethanol is the worst possible motor fuel. I think most people understand the reasons by now. Unfortunately, gasoline has the highest energy density. We are stuck with it until we run out.
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