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Community Newsletter: Q&A: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC
- 10/17/08 4:33 PM
upgrading
by ritchie57 - 10/11/08 12:50 PM In reply to: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I have built and upgraded several computers and have come to the conclusion that the easiest way to do this is to have the person who is selling you your upgrades install them too . This way he/she will have the responsability to advise you that what you want will work with your system and then support you if there are problems afterwords . I just upgraded my computer adding 4 more gigs of ram and a 510 meg hard drive for about $350 .00 . The install fee was $50.00 and the tech did some tweeks to my system to make it run faster and smother and gave me some advice on some things I could do to keep my system more secure . Though I could have done the upgrades myself but I feel that the $50. I spent was well worth it . I hope this helps .
Ritchie
The right memory
by djwatts - 10/11/08 1:01 PM In reply to: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
This is an easy one. Go to crucial.com and use their system to analyze your memory online. Instructions are on the site and the results come back with suggestions for compatible memory choices and their pricing for the memory. Made in U.S.A (usually) Micron memory.
one more thing
by ritchie57 - 10/11/08 1:19 PM In reply to: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
For more hard drive space you might look at buying an external drive that plug into your usb port .
How about "Don't do this"?
by Basuto9 - 10/11/08 1:33 PM In reply to: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I saw nothing mentioned about money, so let me say, as cheap as today's hardware is, and having fooled once with an older computer myself, I would suggest buying a new one. You'll have the advantage of all new technologies, plenty of USB2 and Firewire connections, new DVD/CD player/recorders, SmartMedia slots, new motherboard; the list goes on and on. I can't see any really good reason these days to spend money on an older computer - if you have the money for upgrades, seriously think about spending it on new. I was going to spend over $400 to upgrade an older computer, and ended up buying a new, much better (in all ways, faster, huge HD, huge RAM) HP for $600 on sale. Plus a big discount on a new, large-screen LCD monitor.
Follow up to 'How about "Don't do this"?'
by Rick75230 - 10/18/08 2:45 PM In reply to: How about "Don't do this"? by Basuto9How about "Don't do this"?
by Basuto9 - 10/11/08 1:33 PM
In reply to: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC by Lee Koo (ADMIN) Moderator
I saw nothing mentioned about money, ... I was going to spend over $400 to upgrade an older computer, and ended up buying a new, much better ...
There definitely is a cutoff as a practical matter. Other considerations are whether you are going to upgrade all at once, and the type of upgrade. I occasionally add memory or a larger hard disk, but those are about one upgrade per year and don't involve "major surgery". Nowadays, even a MOBO+CPU+memory upgrade combo can be done for less than $150.
There are few upgrades I can think of over $250 that would be worth doing rather than buying a new machine. That does not include adding a new "powerhouse" peripheral such as a Blu-Ray BURNER.
It is also important to realize that the NEW unit is not simply FASTER. New units will likely have PCI-Express - a whole new TYPE of motherboard interface, they will take a different TYPE of memory (DDR2 vs DDR, SIMM, DIMM, SDRAM), they will have CURRENT interfaces (who uses RS-232 Serial or Parallel anymore?), peripheral sockets (I don't even recall the name for the pre-PCI sockets.) and they will probably support multi-core processors. Many will support 64-bit operating systems even if the OS sold with the unit is 32-bit.
On the other hand, adding 512 MB DDR memory AND a 300-500 GB disk can probably be done for around $100.
Making your upgrade easier...
by Wolfie2k5 - 10/11/08 1:47 PM In reply to: Finding compatible memory and a new hard drive for an older PC by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Dan,
It's not really that hard to find out about what's in your computer even if it's not a brand name box. There are a number of tricks to the trade that will make life easier - without tearing the puppy apart.
First off, you want to add RAM to your system. No problem. Your first task is to visit www.cpuid.com and download the CPU-Z utility. This is a freeware utility that's like Windows' own System Info - on steroids - when it comes to your motherboard, CPU and RAM memory modules. Simply unzip the files in the archive and extract them to a folder and run CPUZ.EXE. In a few moments, it will tell you most everything you want to know about what you've got. Each tab will give you everything you need to know as far as RAM upgrades are concerned.
The CPU tab will tell you what kind of chip you've got. The Cache tab tells you about the onboard cache available in your chip. The Mainboard tab will tell you what motherboard you've got in your computer. This is VERY useful - you can visit the manufacturer's website (Google for the motherboard's name) and download the latest BIOS upgrades and drivers for the OS you've got installed. Sometimes a BIOS update is useful - especially when things aren't working quite as smoothly as you might like. More often than not, you can download a PDF version of your motherboard's manual from the website as well.
The Memory tab will give you and overview of the RAM you've got installed. The SPD tab is where you'll want to be next. It will give you a reading on each stick of RAM you've got installed. It may tell you that you've got DDR or DDR2 memory and the speed the memory is capable of running at, as well as if the memory's registered, buffered or has built in error correction. You'll need all that information when ordering new memory. It will also show the timings that the stick of RAM is capable of supporting. Be sure to check all the available memory slots. You'll want to make sure that whatever memory modules you order match what you've got as closely as possible.
Once you've got the information on your system memory written down, you can close CPU-Z.
Moving on to hard drives... Most modern motherboards will support at least 2 IDE drives, older ones will typically support 4 of them. SCSI today, has been pretty much relegated to the history books. Most servers these days use SATA or IDE - even when they're designed and set up to do RAID arrays. The reasoning is that most IDE and SATA devices have become as reliable and rugged - especially the Enterprise Class model drives. They also tend to be faster and have better thruput.
Speed these days is pretty much a moot issue. Most standard drives will do 7200 RPM. Having bigger buffers and cache is still a good thing to look at. A drive with 32 MB of cache will deliver data to you faster than one with only 2 or 8 MB cache. There are faster drives that run at 10,000 or 15,000 RPM but for the most part, they tend to be expensive and loud. So, unless you're a hard core gamer, it's a bit overkill.
As for the alphabet soup... It's not too difficult to sort them out. UDMA stands for Ultra Direct Memory Access - which is a technology used in IDE (Intelligent [Integrated] Drive Electronics) devices. IDE is also known as PATA - Parallel Advanced Technology Attachment - or the standard 40 pin ribbon cable we're all familiar with. As you might guess from the last definition, SATA therefore stands for Serial Advanced Technology Attachment.
IDE/PATA drives typically can access drives up to 133 Mb/s. SATA comes currently in two flavors. The original standard for SATA specified 150 Mb/s throughput. The 2nd SATA standard doubles that to 300 Mb/s. There's a 3rd flavor in the works that will double it yet again to 600 Mb/s. SATA is clearly faster than the older PATA standards.
You can read up on the history of drive connections at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT_Attachment
SATA connectors consist of a 7 pin L shaped connector. SATA drives also tend to need a different power connector. Most all IDE/PATA drives tend to use the standard 4 pin Molex connector found in pretty much all PCs since time began. Some hard drives can be powered either way and have both types of power connections built in.
So which drive is faster? Since the rotational speed is pretty much the same as is the thruput to the motherboard is equal for the most part, these days, it also helps to look at the way the drive stores the information. Specifically - look at the number of platters and heads on the drive. The more platters you've got, the more the heads have to move, the longer it takes to find a given bit of information. The denser you've got the information packed onto a drive, the shorter the distance between point A and where your data resides. Some of Western Digital's newer drives that have fewer platters/heads are faster than those of equal capacity but more platters.
NCQ is a technology used to optimize hard drive access. It stands for Native Command Queuing. What that means is that the controller looks to see where on a platter the information being requested is sitting physically. It then figures out the shortest distance from where the head is at the start of the request, then picks up the data from the track closest, then the next closest, and so forth - even if it's not in the correct sequence.
If you look at an old fashioned record player, say you want to play the 3rd, 6th and 2nd tracks on an LP - in that order. While you can program most high tech turntables to do it, you can see it's not necessarily the fastest, most direct route for the arm to travel. If it's at the outer most track (track 1 on the LP), the most efficient would be to move to track 2, play it, move to track 3, play it and jump to track 6. NCQ is like that - it will go out of sequence in order to be more efficient.
Is it something you really, really need? Eh... Probably not. Your motherboard would have to support it with an AHCI (Advanced Host Controller Interface). If you were building a brand new monster computer with the fastest available components and want to make it the fastest possible fire breathing beast, then, yes, it would be something you'd probably want to look for. Given you're updating an older box, it's probably overkill.
As far as upgrading the motherboard goes... That entirely depends on a few things. How old is the computer? Is it working or is it on it's last leg? How big a wad of cash are you willing to part with?
If the computer is more than 4 years old, it may well be time for a new motherboard. My last motherboard started misbehaving and I knew it was time to dump it. It was about 5 years old at that point. The clock, at times, would think it was 1999 and get lost trying to jump forward to 2007 at warp speed. A reboot would temporarily fix the problem.
The good news is - hardware is fairly cheap. You can get a heck of a barn burner for a few hundred dollars. Just remember that most modern motherboards are phasing out IDE interfaces for the most part. It used to be you got 2 IDE channels that supported up to 4 IDE devices. These days, you're likely to get only 1 channel and 2 devices. SATA devices now are the norm. Now you're likely to see 4 - 6 SATA ports that support one device each. If you ugprade your motherboard, you're also going to need to replace pretty much everything else. Memory sticks will need to be replaced. About the only thing you would likely want to salvage from the current kit would be any DVD burners that are in good working order. Hard drives - especially the SATA 3 Gb/S variety are a LOT faster than their older IDE cousins.
You may also need to replace your case. If your case is old and doesn't provide enough ventilation, you could wind up frying your brand new components. Modern motherboards, CPUs and RAM tend to run HOT. Some chips on some motherboards I've read about recently typically run almost hot enough to boil water (176 - 203 F or 80 - 95 C)! And this is considered to be "normal". Heat, as always, is the enemy of electronics.
At some point, you'd almost have to wonder if it might not be easier to just buy a new computer...
Response to advice
by louwin - 10/17/08 9:55 PM In reply to: Making your upgrade easier... by Wolfie2k5What a superb response. Happily I am familiar with the concepts expressed but I couldn't have done better myself.
Marvellous!
Very Informed answer
by tankman61 - 10/18/08 8:58 AM In reply to: Response to advice by louwinI was amased that you hit the note so well andon the money.
Wolfie
by Kitty I - 10/17/08 11:05 PM In reply to: Making your upgrade easier... by Wolfie2k5I am amazed by how much some of you all know about these perplexing machines. Many people think I know so much, they come to me for all kinds of help. But you! You just take my breath away with the breadth of your knowledge, and the generousity of spirit you show helping people! Thank you, I hope someday I'll have a better grasp. As for now, I want to try some of these things out and see if my poor old county surplus buy has mental meltdown or survives...
Thanks for sharing!
Kitty
P. S. Know anything about Osbornes?
Dead on
by patruga - 10/18/08 7:00 AM In reply to: Wolfie by Kitty IKitty - Your comment is dead on...I too am impressed with the depth and breath of knowledge out there. Here is the key: you have to stay on top of all the changes, EVERY DAY. When hard drives were going for about $50 per gig, I was top gun, not too much I couldn't explain.... then family raising kicked in. I still know the concepts, but boy I feel like a kindergardener these days. Anyone looking for a unwrapped version of DOS 6.0?
ancient reply
by patcheye.com - 11/1/08 12:21 AM In reply to: Dead on by patrugapatuga-
As a matter of fact, I would be VERY interested in an copy of DOS 6.0. I went through the family hiatus and am bringing myself up to speed. I do a little volunteer work for the local elementary schools, and their equipment is not up to much. They have a lot of legacy equipment donated by people when they upgrade, and that is a great thing. Anything still usable, even though slower than your upgrade, is probably better than what the schools have. I have been talking to the teachers to try to impress on them that most of this stuff is only good for the lower grades, to get them used to a keyboard for instance. If you want a rude kick in the pants, visit your local elementary school and see their computer lab, if they even have one. I wish I was rich enough to provide all those kids with a desktop of their own and network it with the teacher's. Let the kids have limited Internet Broadband, and let the teacher be able to monitor each kid's station. My dream anyway, it's a struggle to get them anything with their lack of money. If kids were computer literate by 4th grade, netbooks or notebooks would be appropriate. I tried teaching a class for youngsters in how to build a computer, but I am in wheelchair and don't have enough room or money. I was selfish enough to make sure my two kids could do it. they built them in third grade, and my son still has the same computer, except he has replaced everything at least twice. But it grew, with each step being an upgrade so he still thinks of it as the original. Enough blather, pleare reply to Bill@patcheye.com.
Perfect
by Dagpro - 10/18/08 4:19 AM In reply to: Making your upgrade easier... by Wolfie2k5This is one of the best most comprehensive answers I have ever seen and I have been reading this newsletter for years. Thanks, I have learned so much
That was great...
by tim02538 - 10/18/08 4:54 AM In reply to: Making your upgrade easier... by Wolfie2k5You are one of many reasons why I love this site. Easy to understand explanations from someone that knows what they are talking about.
Many thanks.
New Build
by printit - 10/18/08 6:37 AM In reply to: Making your upgrade easier... by Wolfie2k5I have rebuilt computers for myself and a few friends but I want more. I'm not a gamer but I do use video editing software that gobbles up my computer. I'm presently running an Intel E4400 @2.00 GHz with 2GB ram on a MSI MS-7267. Nothing fancy but I thought it would take care of my needs. I usually build from the bargain basement being as I don't need the latest and the greatest. I do have a GeForce 8800 GS video card I just installed and a nice 500w Power supply. I'm also running 2 additional internal and 2 external hard drives.
I want more! I'd like some suggestions what MB and processor (I'm very open to AMD) people would recommend. I'd like to be able to have the capacity for 8GB ram and a IEEE 1394 port. I have a nice Swing case with 2 fans for ventilation.
What would you suggest?
Thanks,
Al
Nice Job Wolfie2k5
by High Desert Charlie - 10/18/08 10:35 AM In reply to: Making your upgrade easier... by Wolfie2k5Since the reader is looking at all of the other nuts and bolts, a second look at the power supply may be in order. Some of the older ones were pretty wimpy.
Thanks for the nice post.
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