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Car Tech: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water?
Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water?
by mattyl08 - 3/5/08 9:09 AMI can across this site www.yourmileagesolution.com and it is very interesting that this is a way to pull hydrogen gas from water and have it sucked into your engine through vacumm. It says they have over 10.000 satisfied customers. They are selling 2 ebooks that tell you how to do this yourself...seems simple enough. Thanks
Oh really
by Willy - 3/5/08 1:11 PM In reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08If it worked, do you think only 10K users would be out there. If hydrogen in any great amount is loose to be sucked up, would create more than a little horsepower, it would blow the engine apart or at least start a fire. Nope... -----Willy 
It works
by andher52 - 6/6/08 7:22 PM In reply to: Oh really by WillyI spent 20 hours on the internet and ended up with more questions than answers so I started experimenting last march. I'm on proto type 15 and it works. But it is not the silver bullet we wish for.
I can get small to normal size pickups and cars 40% better mileage easy with 2 hydro Generators. But only if they are 2000 or newer.
Why????
The software they have now is called leaning software. Making the gas is easy , not melting the container is a bit harder.
When the gas goes into the air intake it goes pass the o2 sencer and sends a message to the computer and the computers adjusts the o2. Same when it goes threw the exhaust the sencer there sences the the fuel is tooo rich and starts to turn off the gas and in my 2005 dodge I'm running about 60 % hydrogen gas and 40% regualr gas.
The big savings is not from the hydrogen but from the 25% eff. engine now burns about 50% eff. and thats the major portion of the btus you are using. With 4 I can stop at a stop sign and take my foot off the brake and will drive down the road 15 mph using the h2
Let's be practical...
by Willy - 6/9/08 2:34 PM In reply to: It works by andher52If this worked to any degree of practically and was dependable it would have been made into a commercial application already like a generator. Either, its too costly to apply the "gizmo" or it needs too much attention to be left alone and any other input to keep it going. I guarantee you, if water and the H coming from it were all it was to it, they would be everywhere by now. Don't blame a worldwide energy conspiracy either, the application is just too costly. Science or not, theory and lab results is one thing but having anything taken for granted like an appliance is another. The only application for a H-fuel cell use is in space craft where $ and need is no object.
You say it works, now drive it for a few yrs. and with little attention come back with results.
adios -----Willy
Sort of...
by batman823 - 3/6/08 8:30 AM In reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08I'm a nuclear engineer, and "sort of" really is the answer. If you want to know "How?", I've explained it below. If you want to just hear a "Yes/No." then Yes.
I've checked out their diagrams and supplies, they seem legitimate and should actually work. I can't say how well the system would work. The Oxygen Generator systems I worked on used 2000V-3000Volts and up to 900Amps. I am not sure if the 12V in the car would actually produce enough H2 to be useful. But here's the exlpanation. I would actually recommend you try it, with only 12V, there's not going to be enough H2 to destroy your engine and no water will get put into it, so no damage there.
Oxygen generators and Hydrogren generators(Electrolyzer) are the same thing. On the submarine, we had no use for the explosive H2, so we pumped it overboard. But in this case, the H2 would be used and O2 would just be the same as O2 anywhere else.
At the very worst, you would install the kit and not be happy and get a refund. They use PayPal, so it's a legit business and they tell you how to track them to verify their business.
The engines we have are spaced and designed to run on explosive petroleum fuel(gas) or flammable petrol(diesel).
Adding a more explosive compound will reduce the need for the gas.
So YES, it is possible to run it on water or to mix gas and H2 to improve efficiency.
The process is called electrolysis. If you take pure water, which does not conduct electricity, and put a very strong voltage across it(like from the coil in your car that powers the spark plugs) then the Hydrogen and Oxygen separates. The two H2 molecules and single O2 molecule is gas, which comes from two H20 molecules that were seperated.
(2)H20 = (2)H2 + (2)O2
The H2 and O2 are now stable and can be kept separate. If the H2 is allowed to seep into the air intake of a gas engine it would make the fuel more potent and you could produce more power using less gasoline.
That's all great in theory, but in practice, it is a little tougher to achieve than it sounds. It's hard to get de-ionized water, it requires a pricey deionizing filter to make the water pure enough to do this properly. You can do it with simple purified water but that uses quite a bit more electricity with crappy results.
Secondly, those savvy enough to invent their own system have blown their gaskets and the like by putting too much H2 in the engine.
By all means, buy the kit and see if you save money.
I drive an '06 Nissan Sentra and get 25mpg-city/38mpg-Hwy. I am a big skeptic of all these things because of so many scams and such. So if you do install this kit I would appreciate knowing about it and your results. I wouldn't install the kit solely due to the skepticism.
The phrase comes to mind "Never ask an engineer what he does, because he will tell you."
Hydrogen generation
by bigduke - 3/7/08 6:42 PM In reply to: Sort of... by batman823The last posting uses a lot of words and no science. Hydrogen made from water takes energy greater
than recovered when it is burned. And taking energy from the battery requires replacement
from the engine. With losses in the generator, wires and recharging it
takes even more than any possible recovery from the hydrogen.
Second, one needs to make the water conduct electricity to make the two gasses. Usual lab
generation uses platinum electrodes. Priced this metal recently? Try
$2000 an ounce. It is not used up, so at the end it can be sold again.
How does one make the water conduct? Usually in a dilute acid, but not HCl. It needs to be
one that does not evaporate.
Lets put this one to rest with all the other something from nothing
schemes.
read the site
by batman823 - 3/10/08 5:36 AM In reply to: Hydrogen generation by bigdukeThe link that was posted does explain how it works. But as for science, when you explain something, you put it into terms that a person can understand.
For the energy issue, your statement is correct. However, there is unused energy in an underloaded generator, like the alternator in your car. So it is feasable in an automobile to harness that energy in a useful form. Instead of it spinning and putting nothing out, it uses 1 or 2 extra amps for the electolysis. That's not anything that would put a load on the alternator.
The energy's already being used keeping the alternator spinning against the electromagnetic feedback and friction, so that energy is available for use.
The site doesn't claim that the H2 gas is burned and magically creates energy. What it claims is that the HHO product from the distilled water and calcium bicarbonate catylyst encourages the gasoline to burn more efficiently by forming smaller droplets, along with a few other factors. They also state it works better with more efficient engines. The anode and cathode in the kits are not platinum. They are relatively cheap conductors and they are specified on the site.
Check it out. I'm a neclear engineer, not an explosives expert. So I'm not an authority on how gasoline burns.
But I do know there are many ways to more efficiently use fuels. For example, the more turbulent the air, the more vaporous it becomes, and therefore, the more explosive. That's why certain intake techniques are better than others and produce more power or are more efficient.
Who knows if it really works, but if it does, it would be worth a try.
It does seem that IF* the HHO does make the gasoline droplets smaller in the air mixture, than it would increase the efficiency. And that should do much more than the tiny load on the alternator would cost.
I agree on H2 though. There are losses in the electrolytic production of H2 that make it less efficient as a fuel, but the question is whether or not it is more efficient than gasoline. Water is certainly more plentiful than oil. We do already have the network set up for gasoline, so a rework would require a lot of resources. But Nuclear, Solar, Geothermal, and Wind energy sources are also very plentiful.
We just don't have those tapped to the extent that we need. So we resort to coal and oil because that's what's simple and we already have the networks.
Just a few things to ponder.
incomplete thinking here
by andher52 - 6/6/08 7:39 PM In reply to: Hydrogen generation by bigdukeI tried with copper electrodes. and you can use baking soda and sodium citrate and lye and salt.
Spend 10 hours on each one and then you will find out which one works the best I did.
Copper works great ......for 3 days. Positive crumbles and plates to the negitive and water turns blue. Looks cool. So no to stainless on postive and copper on negitive. 15 cars are using them. Works great ...for a month then the copper breaks down. I have to replace them all.
Now I have 50 cars using my generator and we now use stainless on both electrodes and car dealers are asking me to put them on the Suburbans so they can sell them.UPS is talking about them. The dumb things work but not n every car/truck about 90% and all have to be older than 2000. Acid works good but very nasty burns. Should see my hands. I have about 600 hours of experiments and 16 proto types.
incomplete knowledge, not thinking.
by batman823 - 6/16/08 11:07 AM In reply to: incomplete thinking here by andher52Specifically, chemistry is the primary concern. IF the theory is correct, that introducing HHO gas to the intake causes better vaporization, then this system works. Your copper anode will quickly degrade in the presence of chlorine, lye, and many other impurities. Even moreso with the I2R losses, heat and electrical potential maintained by the dialectric.
So you are correct to try different metals. I would suggest a copper-nickel alloy and controlled chemistry. These alloys have very low resistances and are less susceptible to corrosion. Using DE-IONIZED water would be the best. Add Calcium Carbonate for a catylist. Then you have a more efficient, chemically stable HHO producer.
If the stainless works, then keep it up. Good for you and best of luck. I know stainless is susceptible to some chloride-stress crack propogation and oxygen pitting, but compared to pure copper, it's much better overall. Using stainless, you should be able to use bottled water or use a tap-filter(PUR, BRITA) to supply the water. This will remove most of the chlorides.
Once again, I'm a nuclear engineer specialized in electronics and a limited background on chemistry. You sound like you've found a specific balance that works well, so congratulations. Still, if this were adaptable to newer cars with less maintenance, more people would be interested.
My Generator
by Billybobis1 - 7/5/08 1:18 PM In reply to: Hydrogen generation by bigdukeI have built a Hydrogen generator and I am currently doing research and development, trying to make it more productive.
I used six stainless steel switch plate covers, I bought at Lowes.
I am using plain old tap water. and a 12 vac power supply going through a full wave rectifier. the current capacity of the small transformer is rated at only a little over 1 amp. and I'm sure that I am using much less than that.
Testing it this morning without a check valve causes a small internal explosion that blew the top off of the electrolysis chamber, but at least I know that Oxygen and Hydrogen are being liberated from the water.
I think that there would be a negligible amount of energy expended for a system like this, which would make it well worth the effort.
you need to try it
by andher52 - 6/6/08 7:28 PM In reply to: Sort of... by batman823My 2005 dodge get 10 miles to the gal. and with 4 generators using 12 volts and stating at 4.5 amps I can get 21 miles to a gallon but only 19.5 in the city. I paid the 300 bucks for one and it worked good for a week and then died. So I made my own and there are guys all over making them
water will burn
by muddstopper - 6/13/08 2:48 PM In reply to: you need to try it by andher52you guys are misiing the picture. The debte isnt whether the technology works, but how well. It does indeed work. Ihave found where a actuall auotmoble was built in the 1800's that ran a total of 18 miles on nothing but lake water. The can was built and demostrated somewhere in france. A googel search will also lead you to a demostration that took place in the early 1900 with a patented electrolis carburator in Chacago Ill. A seach of the patent office will show you the actual design. Forgive me for not posting links to this info as I am not at my personal computer where these references are bookmarked. You will also find many references to brownsgas which is a a product of water and electricity and is common in the welding field. Brownsgas is probably the best search word to type into your search engine, A search for Yule Browns might also trun up something of interest. One solution you might try to get your hybrid systems to work more efficiently is to lower the voltage. Between 2.5 and 3 volt seems to be the magic sweet spot for getting these conversions to work, this is depending on the amperage of your vehicles alternator. This will work on most any car, reguardless of age, the newer electronicly control vehicles can benefit form fooling the oxy sensor into beleiveing that the system isnt running lean so it doesnt automaticly increase the amount of petro that is delivered thru the injection system. The HHO, or brownsgas, is plumbed into the cars vaccum system, but also can be plumbed directly thru the air filter system.
Disclaimer,
I dont bult or sell any water to gas products and dont have one installed on my personal vehicle. I do have several friends that have installed them on their personal vehicles and are claiming 30% increases in petro MPG. I prefer to let them work the buggs out before doing an install on my means of transportation
YES it is possible but there are problems
by steeverrino - 6/22/08 11:38 AM In reply to: Is It Possible to Run Your Car on Water? by mattyl08I have been experimenting with this technology for almost a year and here is what I have found.
First. The generator is not easy to fit in most smaller cars. Even some larger cars do not have the room in the engine bay like in the past. There is just not a lot of room for a generator.
Second. Amp draw is tricky to regulate. It is dependent on the strength of the distilled water/sodium hydroxide mixture. Do not use baking soda and or tap water. Too many problems and impurities. You can regulate the amp draw with neutral plates or a DC current regulator but the expense and where to put the unit is a problem.
Third. Cold weather. The water in the unit and bubbler will freeze. Yes you can add alcohol but it does affect the efficiency.
Fourth. People have another thing to take care of on their cars.
Most people do not even check the air pressure in their tires or the oil level in their engines. So how in the world do you think most people will take care of an HHO generator? HHO generators are maintenance intense and require some upkeep.
Fifth. The gains are minimal. I have tried several different units on several different cars. Most have gotten just a small MPG increase of 1 or 2 MPG. I have gotten a 5 MPG increase with a Honda CRX HF but that could have been from also changing driving habits.
Sixth. The O2 sensor problem. Your newer car may have one,two, three or four O2 sensors. They instruct the computer that controls the gasoline air mixture by sensing the Oxygen content of the exhaust.
You have to trick the O2 sensor into running lean. There are many ways to do this. But in many cases, by using these devices, you will end up with a check engine light coming on. I have tried the O2 sensor spacers ( just spark plug anti fowlers drilled to accept the O2 sensor ) and the electronic O2 adapters that trick the engine into running leaner. In each case, the cars I have put these devices in have eventually come up with check engine lights on the dash. Yes they did help with mileage but the engine did start to knock. So I recommend if you do use these devices to run a higher octane gasoline.
Seventh. The scam factor. Everyone who is out on the net saying that you will increase mileage by 50% or 200% or some other number is LYING! They cannot tell you what kind of mileage increase or decrease you will have. They can tell you how much it will cost. They are trying to sell you a kit or a book to tell you how to build one.
DON'T buy the books or the kits. You can build one yourself with all the information on the internet. The books are everything that can be found on the internet for free.
Some of the people involved in selling these plans or kits have been involved in scams in the past. Some of these people are saying it is legitimate because the federal government is giving tax deductions for their products. Better check with the IRS before believing that one. I did. NOT true. And don't fall for the I am a christian so I would not ever scam you. Ask all the guys who put money with Dennis Lee and his scam a week club.
Eighth. Heat. The HHO generator will also generate heat. The mixture of water and Sodium hydroxide will get rather warm. If you are not careful, the generator will overheat and possible melt any plastic components. So the generator must be made to withstand the heat or you must cool the generator with a small transmission cooler.
Also you will need to run high gauge wire to the unit to prevent the wires from melting. If your unit draws 15 amps cold, you can expect it to draw 20 to 25 amps when it warms up. I like to run at least an 04 gauge wire and a 40 amp circuit breaker. You can bet that amp draw will increase as the unit heats up. Every one I talk to has the same problem.
Ninth. Cost. Yes you can build one of these things with Stainless steel wall plates from Lowe's. All for $50. But in order to really build one right, you must use the highest quality stainless steel possible. Stainless steel is not cheap. You will also need a container...I built mine out of lexan. Not cheap any more either. Wire is not cheap any more. I figure I have about $140 dollars into my latest unit. The design must be right. the correct amount of positive, neutral and negative plates. Spacing is critical.
It will probably be my last one because I don't see the advantage of having one in my car. Not for the small increases in MPG. It outputs about 2 liters per minute which is more than enough according to all the experts.
Tenth. Safety. You have to run a bubbler to protect against explosions. Hydrogen and oxygen are present together and that makes for a very explosive environment. I have had bubblers explode on me and it is very loud. Finding an area to put a bubbler is also a problem on many cars. Putting brass wool into a pipe will not prevent explosions of the generator.!!!! Brass wool in a pipe is not a good idea. I have done tests with brass wool and it does burn eventually and will backfire into a generator causing an explosion you cannot believe.
So there you have an informed, unbiased report on HHO. I am not selling anything and this report is my effort to answer the one question that never gets answered about HHO. Does it work?
And that answer is possibly, but not as well as the people who sell this stuff would have you believe. It has problems and is not the real answer to better mileage.
And added to what I said before......
by steeverrino - 6/22/08 7:25 PM In reply to: YES it is possible but there are problems by steeverrinoHave you noticed that when you do a web search on HHO, all you get is websites selling and no website telling the truth about HHO?
All most people want to know is....DOES THE DARNED THING WORK?
Seems that everyone and their mother is selling these things and nowhere on these sites can you get an honest answer.
If you search for does HHO work or HHO scam, you get nothing of any use.
And every top site on the net has someone who has an advertisement for information on HHO or an HHO kit.
Even most of the videos on Youtube do not have anything useful about the effectiveness of HHO generators. I've seen only one that had a Scanguage that showed his actual real time MPG. By the way, it was higher. But you cannot even trust video.
You really can't trust the sites that talk about HHO because the people who run them usually have something to sell or even postings on any site, the person who did the posting is usually involved in a business of selling something to do with HHO.
A sure sign of scammers at work is when they say..." Laugh at the oil companies." or The Arabs are to blame...or Burn water, the government doesn't want you to know about this. I have found that many of the sites that employ this tactic of blame or getting something for nothing, then the product is usually of poor quality. In other words .....JUNK.
The people selling these kits or information are playing on your angst about paying so much to fill your tank. They are preying on your seeing $100 on the gas pump when you fill up. They are everywhere and making a killing.
HHO
by muddstopper - 6/25/08 7:51 PM In reply to: And added to what I said before...... by steeverrinosteeverrino,
I pretty much agree with what you have written. I am confused tho about some of the O2sensor foolers you mentioned, as well as the high volt/amperage suggestions. O2sensors basicly send electrical pulses to the autos ECM. These signals can easily be duplicated with a potentinometer (pot). A proper base line reading of your untampered with o2sensor is needed before hooking up anykind of fooler, but once you know what the voltage should read, it is easily duplicated using a flashlight battery and a Pot. The current draw is minimal and a AAbattery will last for months.Another thought to is that some o2 sensors run on a narrow band using lowering the voltage to prevent the ECM from increaseing fuel supply, and some use a wide band that requires raising the voltage to prevent increased fuel supply. Also, voltage and ampdraw on most HHO converters I have seen is limited to 1.5V-2.5V and milliamps, and the use of a pulse emmitter, so a large circuit interrupter isnt needed, but one should use some sort of relay instead of hooking directly into the cars factory fuse panel.
So far we have had good success at running lawnmowers on pure HHO gas and have a converter hooked up on ford ranger as a HHO/gas hybrid. The testing results on fuel mileage hasnt been determined yet, but we should know in a few weeks if its worth the hassel.
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