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Spyware, viruses, & security : Live OneCare now disallows Ad-Award on the same machine
Live OneCare now disallows Ad-Award on the same machine
by cannonbeach - 2/9/08 7:52 AMI have a Dell 4700 with 2.5 gig or RAM running Windows XP Pro SP2. I got tired of system hog Norton so decided to try Windows Live OneCare. Nice small program and it does a pretty good job. I have had it about a year and a half then the other day they downloaded a new version which, after installation which is not optional, came back and said my computer was at risk, there were other programs on my computer that were interfering with OneCare and must be removed. Calling up the list I found the culprit, according to them, was Ad-Aware 2007 and it insisted I remove it. I called Microsoft and they said that was the case, it did interfere but could give me no reason why, that was just how it was. That seems to me to be unfair interference with free trade somehow. Has anyone else encountered this and I was wondering if I need to start shopping for another security suite. It just ticked me off that Microsoft once again was dictating what I could and could not run. They did tell me SpyBot was OK to run which may be why it jumped up 3 slots in this weeks downloads. Any thoughts?
Personally, I Would Dump Live One Care....
by tobeach - 2/9/08 11:35 PM In reply to: Live OneCare now disallows Ad-Award on the same machine by cannonbeachit reminds me of Norton "wanting to be your one & only'!
I don't trust "any ...one" that much!
It may have done you a favor. I copy & pasted this from further up the Forum (Roddy32M):
"As far as Ad-Aware 2007 not installing I would post that question at the Lavasoft forum. There are a huge amount of people that have problems with that new program as you will see when you visit their forum."
http://www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.php?s=8cdc71a92040d862e2b379557d241e31&showforum=61
I've still got AAW SE 1.06, whose updates are now officially discontinued BUT are being released weekly by grace of at least 1 thinking/sympathetic person there. Sadly, no promise how long it will continue. Here's the addie for those (NOT via built in updater)IF you still have a saved installer for 1.06 & can re-install:
http://www.lavasoft.com/single/mirror_download.php?f=948DEWk12
Good Luck! 
ToBeach, your quoting my post
by roddy32
- 2/10/08 4:42 AM
In reply to: Personally, I Would Dump Live One Care.... by tobeach
about Ad-Aware 2007 not installing from a DIFFERENT thread has nothing to do with this member's post or I would have posted that info myself.
My Appologies, Roddy32! My , perhaps poorly expressed...
by tobeach - 2/10/08 11:12 PM In reply to: ToBeach, your quoting my post by roddy32
intention was simply to give a link that would support the idea that AAW 2007 itself was subject to many problems for many users (not just installing,which this user had already accomplished). I felt I should add that point since I already was suggesting that Live One Care is something I wouldn't have (agreeing w/ posters opinion) due to it's seemingly exclusivity demands (rather that trying to be compatible
with other popular existing programs). What MS calls "trustworthy
computing" ....All MS (& it's paying contract partners) Only ??
In short, BOTH have their problems.
Never the less I apologize for "mis-appropriating" your thread when
I perhaps would have been better off just posting a link to the AAW 2007 forums so he could see the full variety of problems on offer.
M ea Culpa! Sandy.
I don't care if you quote me. My point
by roddy32 - 2/11/08 4:38 AM
In reply to: My Appologies, Roddy32! My , perhaps poorly expressed... by tobeach
was that his issue was NOT Ad-Aware 2007 installing, He already has it installed. The quote had nothing do to with HIS problem.
OneCare disallows Ad-Aware and Site-Advisor
by Carol~ - 2/10/08 12:57 AM
In reply to: Live OneCare now disallows Ad-Award on the same machine by cannonbeach
'....Has anyone else encountered this '
'....it did interfere but could give me no reason why, that was just how it was.'
Cannonbeach...
Yes. A great deal of people have encountered it and a great deal of people are also as disturbed about it, as you are. There is much to be found about it. The MS OneCare forum has a 6 page thread titled, "OneCare and AdAware should not conflict with each other" which should give you some insight.
This is only one person's opinion, but I think it best answers your questions, while explaining the overall situation. It's titled, "MORE ONECARE ANNOYANCES". (Scroll down to February 4th)
Some of which reads:
On January 31, again with no notice (not even any notice to the online forum where OneCare is discussed), another minor update was automatically installed. Again, computers had to be restarted. Ignoring the notice to restart was perilous - if ignored for more than a few hours, the computer forced a restart. At no time was any explanation offered about the upgrade or the restart.
The January 31 update has created its own flap. With no notice - again, not even any notice to the dedicated advisors working the OneCare online forums - OneCare now goes scary Red if AdAware or McAfee Site Advisor are installed on the same computer.
Those two programs have a long history and many people have had one or the other of them coexisting quite happily with OneCare. The imperious red icon leads to a message demanding that they be uninstalled, with no explanation. People are irritated. If you want additional protection and believe it's necessary to supplement OneCare with another program, you should be able to do that, right?
The answer is, not necessarily. The problem isn't that the instructions aren't appropriate - they might be. The problem is that there was no warning ahead of time, and yet again the OneCare team isn't responding to people's questions in a timely way.
Here's the most active thread on the OneCare forum about AdAware (referenced above), and here's the thread about McAfee Site Advisor. There has been no official response. There's reason to suspect that the OneCare team acted without researching these programs deeply. Naturally there is speculation that Microsoft is just trying to avoid competition, not reacting to any real problem at all. People are getting no answers but there's the OneCare icon glowing red - the color that should only be used when there is a grievous, system-threatening problem with security.
The worst thing is that there may be a plausible reason to heed the warning. It is well-known that only one antivirus program can run on a computer; they are built in a way that almost guarantees conflicts if two run simultaneously.
Adware/spyware scanning is starting to take on some of the same characteristics. OneCare and the paid 2007 version of AdAware both run as services - a deep level where conflicts may occur. The OneCare team may well believe that it is safer not to run AdAware and OneCare together; like all conflicts, not everyone will experience a problem but some people might.
McAfee Site Advisor does a different kind of work, but the OneCare advisor on the forum quite reasonably pointed out that McAfee also designates OneCare as a conflicting program for all McAfee programs, without exception.
There's more to read, if you're interested..
Carol
Possibly add AVG Anti-Spyware to the list..
by Carol~ - 2/10/08 1:37 AM
In reply to: OneCare disallows Ad-Aware and Site-Advisor by Carol~
I can't say I know it to be fact, but in the thread, "Microsoft Windows Live One Care Incompatible With Adware 2007", a member says AVG A/S "appears" to be on the list.
As an aside, he also says, "You can leave Ad-Aware 2007 installed in conjunction with OneCare, but it's icon will remain red in the system tray indicating a problem and advising to remove Ad-Aware as an "Interfering Program"- the suggested work-around for Ad-Aware users with OneCare installed is to just ignore the red warning from OneCare until MS gets this mess straightened out.
For those unhappy with that suggestion, choose which program to uninstall - then post in the MS forums, giving them your own personal opinion about this new "wrinkle".'
It's Lavasoft who should fix the problem. Not MS
by Donna Buenaventura - 2/15/08 6:37 PM
In reply to: Live OneCare now disallows Ad-Award on the same machine by cannonbeach
At first I thought it's Microsoft who should fix the issue but after Lavasoft confirmed (as a blog comment reply to MVP Corrine Chorney's blog) the problem is with Ad-watch (Ad-watch conflicts with OneCare. OneCare might be terminated by Ad-watch).. then it's LS who should fix the problem.
Makes sense on why MS is recommending to affected users to uninstall Ad-Aware 2007.
Note: Ad-ware 2007 free and paid editions has Ad-watch component. Difference is free users of Ad-aware cannot use the ad-watch component.
I now agree that Lavasoft most likely is the problem
by cannonbeach - 2/16/08 10:31 AM In reply to: It's Lavasoft who should fix the problem. Not MS by Donna Buenaventura
When I originally submitted my question I jumped to the conclusion that Microsoft had done it again since there was nothing to the contrary anywhere out there. I have done a lot of follow-up since and now see that it is not totally a Microsoft issue. My gripe with them is that they never notified us of the upgrade and changes made before just downloading and the Lavasoft conflict popped up. I think some of the feedback from Lavasoft is very defensive and I think they realized they have ruffled a lot of feathers. I hope Microsoft can find a fix for this issue but I am not hopeful in Ad-Aware's current configuration. I have gone back to old reliable SpyBot which I find has just released a new and much improved version. There are other spyware providers out there as well and I am trying some and will settle on one or the other soon. I still believe you should run more than one anti spyware application, no one can catch everything.
Many affected
by Donna Buenaventura - 2/16/08 2:12 PM
In reply to: I now agree that Lavasoft most likely is the problem by cannonbeach
See Carol's (aka curcat) 2 post and it shows not only Ad-Aware by LS is affected.
Example:
SiteAdvisor by McAfee
AVG Antispyware by AVG Technologies (formerly known as Grisoft)
Nice though that AVG Team is planning to release a fix and working with MS on this issue.
"When I originally submitted my question I jumped to the conclusion that Microsoft had done it again since there was nothing to the contrary anywhere out there. I have done a lot of follow-up since and now see that it is not totally a Microsoft issue."
Myself and others thought it is the "service" that is detected as incompatible. (Some application will do that by checking what is running or if the directory of another application exist)
No one knows which is the cause of the incompatibility so that's normal that people blame MS.
Until LS confirmed that Ad-watch is the culprit... only then we realize that it's the reason why OneCare's new version is a must.
"My gripe with them is that they never notified us of the upgrade and changes made before just downloading and the Lavasoft conflict popped up. "
Maybe because they got reports already or seen Ad-watch terminates the OneCare application and this is serious IMHO. They need to attend to protect their application first.
If Ad-Aware 2007 (free) is capable of terminating WLOC ...
by JohnRolandElliott - 2/18/08 2:23 PM In reply to: It's Lavasoft who should fix the problem. Not MS by Donna Buenaventura
... what's to stop another program (perhaps a virus) from terminating WLOC. If WLOC is liable to fall over because of some A-A behavior, Microsoft needs to make WLOC more durable, not undermine my computer's health by suggesting that I remove A-A.
The attitude "When my program slits its wrists, its somebody else's program that needs to change to prevent it." is a peculiar one, indeed.
Right. Protect itself
by Donna Buenaventura - 2/19/08 8:27 PM
In reply to: If Ad-Aware 2007 (free) is capable of terminating WLOC ... by JohnRolandElliott
That's one item that MS need to add to its program. Like other antivirus or firewall software, there is a feature that will protect itself for being modified, injected and terminated by other processes (legitimate or not).
However, let's note that the above findings is from Lavasoft.
Microsoft's explanation on the incompatibility is different:
"Ad-Aware 2007 (free version) is a 'manually selected' scanner for adware. It has identified-and-removed adware which was undetected by WLOC and Windows-KB890830-V1.37.exe"
That is what the user of WLOC wrote at OneCare forums after clicking the link in the alert that refers to "Why un-install Ad-Aware 2007?":
http://forums.microsoft.com/windowsonecare/showpost.aspx?postid=2783903&siteid=2&sb=0&d=1&at=7&ft=11&tf=0&pageid=0
MS has not confirmed the findings of LS nor no report at OneCare forums about WLOC terminated unexpectedly by Ad-watch so this is interesting.
What I believe that triggered MS to release an update/fix on WLOC crashes is the faulty module MSVCR80.dll, a Microsoft C runtime library.
It was reported at:
http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2138929&SiteID=2
Then the user got a response from MS that a fix will be released:
http://forums.microsoft.com/WindowsOneCare/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2523170&SiteID=2
After few weeks, the new build was released (Jan. 30, 2008) and this build is the one that triggers incompatibility to Ad-Aware.
Note that AVG Antispyware and McAfee's SiteAdvisor are reported to be incompatible too but no report by a user that Ad-watch, AVG A/S and/or SiteAdvisor will terminate WLOC or its components so we can't tell really whether the findings of Lavasoft is the same as the findings of Microsoft, McAfee and AVG Technologies (former name is Grisoft).
Having a little difficulty following your post
by JohnRolandElliott - 2/21/08 5:34 AM In reply to: Right. Protect itself by Donna Buenaventura
Do I understand correctly that you now think Microsoft should make changes to WLOC's defenses so that it is immune to the design and behavior of other programs? Is this a reversal from what you said in "It's Lavasoft who should fix the problem. Not MS" on 15-Feb? That was a reversal from what you originally believed. So your initial impression was correct and now you're returning to it?
I think you misunderstood DHoppus, who posted at forums.microsoft.com on 1-Feb. He said that when, in WLOC, he clicked the link that he thought would answer the question "Why uninstall Ad-Aware 2007?", it didn't answer the question. The words about "'manually selected' scanner for adware" and "identified-and-removed adware which was undetected by WLOC" were his, not Microsoft's and he was expressing reluctance to uninstall Ad-Aware. As near as I can tell, Microsoft still hasn't offered a compelling reason why the simultaneous presence of Ad-Aware and WLOC is undesirable, much less dangerous as the red alert implies.
You advance an interesting theory that the 1-Febą WLOC update (the one that triggered this whole discussion) was to prevent WLOC crashes caused by MSVCR80.dll. Do you figure that the crashes were in any way related to the presence of Ad-Aware (i.e., it is possible for an unrelated program to cause WLOC to slit its wrists)? Do you think that this update "accidentally" started complaining about Ad-Aware? Or was there another problem, unrelated to MSVCR80.dll-caused crashes, that Microsoft was endeavoring to avoid by insisting that WLOC users uninstall Ad-Aware (an action I think would dilute protection)?
Finally, from time to time I see reports from people simultaneously running several overlapping malware defense programs. I, myself, have simultaneously had Norton Anti-virus, Ad-Aware and Spyware Doctor in use on the same machine. So far, WLOC seems to be the one complaining about the rest. Evidently the others, in general, coexist well enough together. If this perception is correct, shouldn't Microsoft discontinue trying to displace Ad-Aware and start making changes to WLOC, if necessary, to make WLOC safe to use on an computer that has Ad-Aware installed?
Yes, No
by Donna Buenaventura - 2/21/08 7:41 AM
In reply to: Having a little difficulty following your post by JohnRolandElliott
"Do I understand correctly that you now think Microsoft should make changes to WLOC's defenses so that it is immune to the design and behavior of other programs?"
MS and all other security vendor should make changes to their product if any legitimate process can simply terminate another security tool. That is... if the claim of LS that Ad-watch can terminate WLOC is true so yes, MS should make a change to protect WLOC from such.
"Is this a reversal from what you said in "It's Lavasoft who should fix the problem. Not MS" on 15-Feb? That was a reversal from what you originally believed. So your initial impression was correct and now you're returning to it?"
No. I still believe still LS who should fix the problem. Not MS because their Ad-watch should not terminate a legitimate process, especially if the component is the resident protection tool by a user (Firewall, Antivirus, Antispyware).
Again, that is if the statement of LS is the same findings by MS.
MS already published long time ago in their FAQ for other vendors to ensure that their program will not conflict with the resident protection of WLOC, if they will continue to advertise that their program is compatible with WLOC or any other on-access and on-demand security tool.
Example: Ewido/AVG has list of programs that is compatible with AVG A/S at http://www.ewido.net/en/compatibility/
Notice that WLOC is listed as compatible with AVG A/S but now that they also received reports that WLOC is not compatible with AVG A/S anymore... AVG Support response is they'll provide a compatibility fix and that they are working this issue with MS
Let's hope LS is doing the same.
"I think you misunderstood DHoppus, who posted at forums.microsoft.com on 1-Feb. He said that when, in WLOC, he clicked the link that he thought would answer the question "Why uninstall Ad-Aware 2007?", it didn't answer the question. The words about "'manually selected' scanner for adware" and "identified-and-removed adware which was undetected by WLOC" were his, not Microsoft's and he was expressing reluctance to uninstall Ad-Aware. "
Maybe I'm mistaken with DHoppus post but still, user reported that the explanation of MS on why AAW should be removed is not clear on why AAW conflicts with WLOC.
Thanks for pointing it out BTW
"As near as I can tell, Microsoft still hasn't offered a compelling reason why the simultaneous presence of Ad-Aware and WLOC is undesirable, much less dangerous as the red alert implies."
Red alert is important and if MS said it should be removed then they must have serious reason. Whatever it is then it should be fixed by vendors themselves. They need to work on this thing and if they failed, they should stop advertising each others program to be compatible with this and that.
I personally use AAW 2007 and WLOC in XP system and so far have not seen the said red alert. Could be LS right that Ad-watch, if enabled and active is the caused.
But there are reports that LS AAW 207 free triggers the red alert on WLOC due to incompatibility.
"You advance an interesting theory that the 1-Febą WLOC update (the one that triggered this whole discussion) was to prevent WLOC crashes caused by MSVCR80.dll. Do you figure that the crashes were in any way related to the presence of Ad-Aware (i.e., it is possible for an unrelated program to cause WLOC to slit its wrists)? Do you think that this update "accidentally" started complaining about Ad-Aware? Or was there another problem, unrelated to MSVCR80.dll-caused crashes, that Microsoft was endeavoring to avoid by insisting that WLOC users uninstall Ad-Aware (an action I think would dilute protection)?"
Could be related or not. Until MS confirmed that the findings of LS is correct then we cannot point that the released update on WLOC is due to the presence of AAW, SiteAdvisor or AVG A/S.
"Finally, from time to time I see reports from people simultaneously running several overlapping malware defense programs. I, myself, have simultaneously had Norton Anti-virus, Ad-Aware and Spyware Doctor in use on the same machine. So far, WLOC seems to be the one complaining about the rest. Evidently the others, in general, coexist well enough together. If this perception is correct, shouldn't Microsoft discontinue trying to displace Ad-Aware and start making changes to WLOC, if necessary, to make WLOC safe to use on an computer that has Ad-Aware installed?"
Same here. In another machine, I have NAV, Comodo Firewall, AAW, WinPatrol, Spybot S&D, PrevXCSI, etc but NAV as resident shield have not whine on AAW or SS&D.
Then on another system.. it has NOD32 and Comodo Firewall with AAW also and no issue so far.
And then the main computer has Norton Security Suite with AAW again and also no issue.
And last but not the least, the XP system has WLOC, Outpost Firewall and AAW 2007 but I have not seen the issue that others is reporting. No compatibility issue. The WLOC icon is red because I turned off the AU and turned off the WLOC firewall.
MS noted in their FAQ for vendors that: "A small number of security applications may run in conjunction with Windows Live OneCare. Please feel free to investigate the possibility of your application working in tandem with OneCare."
MS and those vendors should be working on this issue so WLOC will stop marking the said programs as incompatible. Hopefully all of them are now working on it so affected user's machine will have the green icon 
Another misperception in need of correcting
by JohnRolandElliott - 2/24/08 9:02 AM In reply to: Yes, No by Donna Buenaventura
On 2/21 you said:
"No. I still believe still LS who should fix the problem. Not MS because their Ad-watch should not terminate a legitimate process, especially if the component is the resident protection tool by a user (Firewall, Antivirus, Antispyware)."
Where did you get the (preposterous) notion that Ad-Watch was terminating a legitimate process? The comment that the LavaSoft guy made was "The only time a problem occurs is when you are running the realtime protection features of Ad-Aware 2007 Plus/Pro (Ad-Watch), at which point LiveOneCare might terminate prematurely." I interpret that to mean "If OneCare notices that Ad-Watch is running, OneCare might stomp off in a petulant snit and slit it own wrists."
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