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Speakeasy: REAL ID BY 2014
reply to: And the vice....
by caktus - 1/11/08 10:36 AM In reply to: And the vice squeezing our personal freedoms... by grimgraphix"those chips can be read from as far as 20 feet away."
Interesting. Is there a reference to this (well, other than your's 
.) I would think that this can be adjusted. Also, if this is the case I bet lead-lined document holders will become quite fashionable. I bet lead-lined document holders can even be made see-through for the "convenience" of us and the "man." BTW, do you think a pass across a magnet would render it unreadable?
BTW, and perhaps a bit off topic. But I would like to see reporters being required to release the names of "anonymous" goverment officials (I know, everyone would itch about it) if for no other reason than to stop government officials from blabbing what they are not supposed to be blabbing about regarding national security. In fact, I'd like to see gonverment officials held subject to laws of treason durring war or not.
treason?
by grimgraphix - 1/11/08 1:39 PM In reply to: reply to: And the vice.... by caktusDo you know what "treason" actually is? Try this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason
And as for RFDs being able to be read from 20 feet away... what do you think the easy pass technology is that allows people to pass through toll gates and be billed later? It is similar to the paper thin RFD tags you find being used in stores and warehouses for inventory and theft control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID
How is secure ID "restricting" your freedoms?
by Edward ODaniel - 1/11/08 11:18 AM In reply to: And the vice squeezing our personal freedoms... by grimgraphixNothing in the law says that you must fly, only that if you desire to use an airline as a passenger you must show a specific approved and secure ID.
If you don't want to get one it is your choice (that is called freedom of choice).
It is an added benefit that "Real ID" will also eliminate a lot of illegal and deceased voters and welfare recipiants.
Only wish it could be moved up to 4 July, 2008!
Don't you realize
by dirtyrich - 1/12/08 9:19 AM In reply to: How is secure ID "restricting" your freedoms? by Edward ODanielthat flying airlines without showing ID was in our Bill of Rights? Right next to the right to prevent someone else from exercising their religion.
It's not just air travel...
by grimgraphix - 1/12/08 12:09 PM In reply to: Don't you realize by dirtyrichEmployers would no longer be able to accept, or ultimately hire, bearers of non-compliant documents for employment
Financial institutions would require compliant documents from all customers. Bearers of non-compliant documents would be denied financial or banking services.
In other words... you can't work and you can't use a bank without the proper ID.
How is that a major problem?
by Bill Osler - 1/12/08 12:44 PM In reply to: It's not just air travel... by grimgraphixI understand that lack of ID is an inconvenience, but it should generally be a temporary inconvenience because anybody who is in the US legitimately should be able to obtain a conforming ID.
Employers are already SUPPOSED to check ID when they take on employees. I am not completely up-to-date on the requirements but IIRC when I ran my own office I kept a copy of the social security card and a photo ID for each of my employees and I think there was some kind of form I had to save as well.
Banks already require identification for new account holders in many cases. I confess I haven't read the rules to know exactly who needs an ID when, but I know that when my son and I went to town and opened his checking account he had to have ID. I think I had to show ID also since I was a co-signer on his account. When he applied for a credit card we had to fax a copy of a photo ID to the credit card company. I'm not sure I see a huge change there either.
It seems to me that the only substantive difference the new rules will make is that the required identification will be harder to forge. Is that a bad thing?
Is it a bad thing?
by grimgraphix - 1/12/08 1:35 PM In reply to: How is that a major problem? by Bill OslerYou be the judge Bill.
Everyone is assuming that this only concerns air travel (or at least dirtyrich made a "statement" about the constitutional rights of air travel). I simply pointed out that this is about more than just air travel. It is about the federal government being able to track daily air travel, bank transactions, etc. on a interconnected national database. Once the mechanism is put in place to track this information it won't be difficult to expand it use with legislative actions. Of course, if the needs arises, then why wait for laws to be enacted to expand search parameters? How soon will using national or regional railways require showing your ID? Bus travel? Subways? How about getting into public events like football games or concerts?
A national ID card can just as easily be used to track citizens as it can be used to catch terrorists and illegal aliens. A bank requiring ID to open up an account is for the safety of the bank and the account holder... the government requiring an ID that can make instant entries to a national database operated by the fed is something else.
I do not dispute the effectiveness of what the government says this law will do. I do worry about the potential for abusing this system. Especially since our present administration has demonstrated a willingness to ignore current laws about wiretapping in the name of "national security"... and then try to hide it's actions in the name of "national security" as well. If you agree with the current administration ignoring FISA laws then I can understand why the Real ID act may not bother you. Me? I'm just too suspicious and cynical to be laissez faire about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act
I have mixed feelings ...
by Bill Osler - 1/12/08 1:56 PM In reply to: Is it a bad thing? by grimgraphixI've never understood why a national ID should be such a hot button issue. Big Brother can work about as effectively with the information already out there even without national IDs. It's not that I have an overwhelming trust of the Feds or any desire to see expansion of an already too-intrusive government. I just don't see how improving the security of ID cards facilitates intrusiveness all that much.
Most of the things you are concerned about either already occur or probably could occur whether or not there is 'Real ID' or national ID or just plain old driver's licenses.
The requirements for data sharing in the original proposal were problematic, especially since there would be sharing with foreign governments but as I understand it those requirements are not currently part of the law.
Standardizing ID requirements makes sense.
by grimgraphix - 1/12/08 4:16 PM In reply to: I have mixed feelings ... by Bill OslerIt is the additional parameters and requirements the government includes in the Real ID act that is disturbing. This law is not just about standardizing identification methods but it is about travel, commerce, information gathering and networking, and even the rights of US citizens who own property along US borders or land of other strategic value.
During the course of this thread I have raised the question again and again of the recent behavior of our national government and its demonstrated willingness to actually ignore domestic intelligence gathering laws (I viewed it as breaking these laws) when the fed felt it was necessary for national security. The response of some has been that the extra security is worth giving up some privacy. I simply view every time we, as a people, become more and more accepting of our government tracking our personal lives, as as erosion of the freedom that we are fighting a war to preserve. Everyday, the news repeats the government's line that they can't be transparent about what they do because it will tip off our enemies... yet our own government asks us to be more and more transparent about what we do. We are told there is no foreseeable end in sight and every time we are attacked (or told an attack was averted) there will be more and more countermeasures that require us to reveal more about ourselves while the Fed will be "forced" (because of national security reasons) to be less and less transparent in their activities. I could be more accepting of this secrecy if the Fed hadn't already proved their willingness to ignore laws already on the books.
Questioning every single action our public servants (read: the US government) take is the very foundation of US democracy. It frightens me that so many have forgotten this, or worse yet find it unpatriotic to do so.
I done ranting, so everyone have a good evening.
grim
You sound like you have something to hide
by C1ay - 1/12/08 3:30 PM In reply to: Is it a bad thing? by grimgraphixYour continued argument to do nothing and leave our currently insecure system in place gives the impression of some ulterior motive on your part...
Wow clay, I expect better from someone...
by grimgraphix - 1/12/08 3:40 PM In reply to: You sound like you have something to hide by C1ay... who spends their time on forums that deal with science and discussion than to see you use a cliche' like this. Should I assume from now on, that you prefer dogmatic slogans rather than examination of all possible aspects of a subject?
Real ID is an Internal Passport
by reddragon696 - 2/9/08 12:21 AM In reply to: Is it a bad thing? by grimgraphixThe Real 'ID' Act is really nothing more than an Internal Passport System to be able to travel or interact with the Government within the borders of the U.S. as well as travel outside the country.
After May 11th you will have to have a 'Real ID' or your State must agree to implement one in order to enter any Federal building including Courts, just in case you get summoned for Jury Duty.
If, for some reason your ID gets revoked you would not be able to utilize public transportation and , theoretically, any travel upon a public roadway by any means, apply for government assistance, school loans, or enter any Federal Government Building. You would not be allowed to visit any Federal Public Monuments or any National Parks. You would not be able to attend any public functions held at any Federal Facility such as concerts or shows. You would not be allowed to vote in any election that requires ID, or participate in any Political Functions.
Since the personal private information obtained would not be encrypted, you would be vulnerable to ID theft on a National basis instead of just on a State basis or, in the case of Domestic Violence, be able to hide your true address or S.S. number from a stalker or abuser.
Your Info will be available to any store, bar or establishment that requires you to have an ID and then swipes the card to retain the info recorded on it.
An Internal Passport System has never been used by a Domocracy before but only by Dictatorships and Police States.
This law has nothing to do with Security and everything to do with Privacy and Freedom from Government interference.
The present Administration has shown that it could care less about a Citizens Rights if it decides it wants more info on you and the Real ID Act will only make it that much easier to obtain this info and harrass innocent Citizens even 'disappear' them or torture them if it so desires.
The Patriot Act is a prime example of just how the Government can ruin the lives of innocent Citizens if some corrupt official or Law Enforcement Officer decides to screw with you for whatever reason as numerous cases abound where exactly that type of harrassment has occured.
Laws such as these will slowly but surely destroy Democracy in this Country.
I don't see a problem
by Patricia89 - 1/13/08 11:14 AM In reply to: It's not just air travel... by grimgraphixwith this. As it stands now we have too many illegals in this country.
They need to stay in their own Country and fight for better living conditions and better wages.
We have illegals in this country...
by grimgraphix - 1/13/08 1:20 PM In reply to: I don't see a problem by Patricia89... for a variety of reasons but the main one is the fact that they can find employment from business owners who are more than willing to look the other way. We have laws on the books that call for specific penalties for these businesses yet actual enforcement of these laws by our government (which is the de facto enforcer of all laws) has gone from thousands of cases per year to literally less than 100. This demonstrates that our government is simply not concerned about stopping the reason for illegal workers to come to this country. If it was, then it would be UPHOLDING laws which are already on the books.
The Real ID act is not about stopping illegal immigrants from working in the US. It is about keeping track of peoples movements and financial dealings. The Homeland Security department along with a certain number of legislators have decided that the way to guard the hen house is to put the spotlight on the chickens rather than fix the holes in the fence. I find this misguided at best and suspicious at worst. Drivers licenses were never meant to be a definitive ID. They were designed to show that an automobile operator had demonstrated a proficiency to operate a motor vehicle safely. Social security numbers were never meant to act as personal identification either. The only document that was ever designed to act as identification papers for traveling (and then, only outside of the US) was a US Passport. Other than this, US citizens have never had to prove their identity to travel inside our own country. The Real ID act of 2005 lays out the guidelines for a national identity system for over 260 million people, many of whom will never, ever get on an airplane to travel across the country but because they drive, will be required to get one. This ID card will be used as part of a national data network. A network that will in effect, be able to track the majority of the US population.
(NT) Show us your papers!
by Dan McC - 1/11/08 5:52 AM In reply to: REAL ID BY 2014 by Mac McMullen
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