Community Newsletter: Q&A: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics
- 1/30/08 12:54 AM
you should still measure
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 1:50 PM In reply to: Common Sense Approach by WildClayCommon sense or not, it sounds like you don't have anything with which to measure.
Looking at the label doesn't tell you very much. It won't usually tell you for instance how much a TV uses in standby. When CNET did a study, they found it ranged from 0.3 to 76.11. See http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-3.html.
I've measured many of my power bricks w/nothing plugged into them and I haven't found one that registers even 1 watt by itself (Kill-A-Watt won't show anything other than whole numbers of watts). One has to plug a bunch together into a power strip to get >1 watt.
Once I got a Kill-A-Watt, I found out that my projector uses 18 watts (!) when in standby. I was astounded and now always turn off its hard power switch. Doing this saves WAY more power than turning off/unplugging all my wall warts. My Athlon 64 3200+ system draws 8 watts when the power is off.
See http://priuschat.com/forums/environmental-discussion/17498-kill-watt-rocks-2.html#post227651 for some other readings I took.
Assumptions....
by WildClay - 1/26/08 3:06 PM In reply to: you should still measure by cwerdnaIt may "sound" like I don't have anything to measure with but that is not the case, the reality is most don't and most don't need to if one uses common sense, part of that is anything in stand-by is going to use power, and if you were suprised about that then I guess a measuring device was a good idea for you...
As for the label, it does tell you a lot, it gives a good idea of the power while in-use and while it will not tell you the stand-by use, most things should be powered down, not just turn-off if you want to save power, making stand-by a moot issue.
My TV's and computers say on the spec's page what there power use is in various modes, that is another good source for this information and it is included on that last page few people look at, but it is usually there and free.
As for wall warts, I agree you are not going to save a lot, but I see no need to waste the power to run them when not in use or the air-co to remove the heat they generate, as well as them being a potential fire hazard, and they last longer powered off when not in use.
All that said, the biggest bang for the buck most people are going to get is with their appliances and heating/cooling, making sure they don't have air leaks, etc... However, when you add all of the little saves up times 300 million people, you start getting in to real saves.
not everyone will power everything off; specs?
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 3:23 PM In reply to: Assumptions.... by WildClayIt again sounds like you have nothing to measure with and are just guessing.
For convenience sake, not everyone (including) myself is going to put everything on a power strip to be turned off when not in use. My receiver, DVD recorder, DVD player and so forth are not and it'd be a pain.
As for specs... let's see, I built that Athlon 64 3200+ system I mentioned. There are no specs for me to look at. The power consumption will vary depending on what CPU, peripherals, power suppply, etc. I put in. The fact that the PSU is rated at 450 watts tells me nothing.
The Lenovo Thinkpad T61p I'm typing on right now comes w/a pretty generic manual that's for many different models and variants ranging hey ranging from a 14.1" non-widescreen to 15.4" widescreen model w/slow to fast CPUs and discrete video (uses more power) or integrated. It simply says
"Heat output
65 W (222 Btu/hr) maximum or 90 W (307 Btu/hr) maximum (depending on the model)"
Right now, w/a fairly power hungry power profile in Vista, it's drawing about 27-29 watts as I type.
Continued Assumptions...sigh
by WildClay - 1/26/08 5:28 PM In reply to: not everyone will power everything off; specs? by cwerdnaI have a Kill-A-Watt, probably the same model as you or similar, I am a gadget freak so I have a lot of gadgets, also a smart home all X-10 based. Turns lights on when I enter a room, turns them off when I leave, controls the temp with smart set-back, makes wall plugs very easy to turn on and off and so on.
My point still stands, most people don't need any more that common sense and maybe the manual to get a good idea of devices power use. Then for most things, if they are not in use, they can be powered off, not in standby.
If you are going to leave your VCR or as I do my DVD/HD recorder live all the time, even if not "on" it really makes no difference if I know the draw or not, I am not going to give up recording shows to save a few cents and few are, and even fewer are going to take their P3 to a store and test every unit while off before they buy it, and fewer even will trash the one they got and get one that uses less in stand-by.
So again, go after the big fish, heating, air-co, water heater, appliances and get energy star ones and ones sized for your needs and that is where the big saves will come from. Then there is insulation, making sure you don't have air leaks around windows and doors, again all big saves.
This reminds me of the guys that argue about should they invest in stocks when they have a $5,000 balance on their credit card at 14%, the smart investment is pay off the credit card, few stocks return 14%. In that light, how you use your washer and dryer, heating and cooling are going to save you way more than to micro-manange your VCR.
sorry, I assumed wrong
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 7:51 PM In reply to: Continued Assumptions...sigh by WildClaySorry, I assumed you have no Kill-A-Watt, but you still type as though you don't.
Lots of people are making lots of bad assumptionss here back looking at wattage ratings on the backs of their devices or by assuming max power output ratings on power supplies == how much power it consumes.
Common sense helps but also measuring and taking action helps. I bought a play and charge kit along w/the NiMH battery pack for my Xbox 360 awhile ago. I was shocked to find that when charging the battery (system looks like it's off but w/the fans running) it sucks 110 watts! At idle, in the dashboard, it takes an insane 138 to 140 watts.
The 110 W shocked my coworker who has a 360 and no Kill-A-Watt.
So, there's NO way I'm leaving my 360 idle powered on for no reason and I unplug the USB cable when I turn off my 360 so that it can't spend 110 watts charging 2 AA batteries. (If you power off w/the cable in and batts not at full charge, it goes into the charging mode using 110 W until the batt is full.) Fortunately, when the unit is "off" it pulls only 1 watt.
Understand your position
by WildClay - 1/27/08 6:30 AM In reply to: sorry, I assumed wrong by cwerdnaI understand your position and as I said in my first post, it is a valid suggestion, however it is one that most people are not going to do and a device most people don't have.
So by laying down some common sense "rules of thumb" it is far more likely to influence change in how people look at their energy useage in my opinion. As more than one post mentioned, just tweaking your water heater temp, using set-backs to control your house temp, lowering your heat just a little, not to even to a level of being unformotable, same for air-co, washing larger loads less frequently and using cold water, sealing air leaks around doors and windows, not using the oven on a blistering hot day, and buying energy star appliances are where the big saves are.
Also, for most things if you just unplug them or turn them off with a wall switched socket or plug strip makes it so you get down to very few things you need to measure and make any difference.
You gave a couple example where it did make a difference, but for example, I unplug my battery charger except when charging, I could feel the heat coming off the charger even when the batts were charged, that was a pretty good indicator that is was sucking up some juice. Mine is a 4 cell Energizer charger and for grins I did measure it with 4 batts in fully charged and it was sucking up 130 watts!, more than leaving two lights on 24x7.
That said, the things I leave powered but off when not in use, like my DVD/HD recorder, cable modem, TV cable box, and router I would not turn off no matter how much power they used.
Turning my house temp down 2 degrees on very cold days can save me 80 bucks a month on my gas bill, all of the above things unplugged would not save even 8 bucks.
So I discussed the topic on the notion that most people are not going to go out and get a power meter which is why it sounded as is did.
It's ironic this is such a "hot" topic when the goal is to reduce energy...
Rather than waste any more time and/or ENERGY
by btljooz - 1/26/08 2:09 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
trying to read all the responses within the firestorm Rebecca's question has set off, I will simply (and way down within the pages here) state that if it is not being used in my home it is turned off!...by whatever means possible (wall warts are unplugged, electronics like computers & their periferals on powerstrips are turned off at the power strip, etc.) This is all inclu$ive. When I do laundry it is done in cold water. Not only do I save money on utility bill$ (in my area of the mid-west, USA, homes the age of mine...I can't comment on newer homes...are usually split between gas and electric), but I save energy at the same time leaving a smaller "carbon footprint" in the process.
Of the six pages (out of what will become a book!) of answers and comments I've read, you've gotten a few very good answers mixed in the pot of hot opinions. I hope you can sort them out and come to a more informed and less emotional conclusion to suit your own needs as well as those of Mother Earth and all Species of life who reside at her bossom. Good luck with this, Rebecca. 
Do CFL's Save Energy?? Doubtful.
by Marsdave - 1/26/08 2:34 PM In reply to: Rather than waste any more time and/or ENERGY by btljoozI use compact fluorescent lightbulbs (CFLs) in the summer to keep the temperature in my house comfortable. I live in Minnesota. (In the winter, lightbulbs, etc, help to heat my house and don't waste ANY energy).
My question is this: Do CFLs really save any energy?
The bulbs available in my area are manufactured in China. They must be shipped about 8,000 miles to the store from China.
We have recycling in our community, but only for paper, cans, and plastic - no fluorescent bulbs. The CFLs contain mercury. I must drive about 40 miles in my 1997 Pontiac to a recycling center and drop off the bulbs.
So let's assume I bought 5 CFLs. How much energy did it take to ship them about 8,000 miles?
How much energy did it take for me to take them to the recycler (about 40 miles in my car).
Each CFL uses 25 watts (100 watt equivalent bulb).
Over the life of the 5 bulbs, each one replacing an incandesent 100W bulb, how much energy was saved (if any).
(Hint: Probably none at all).
bogus arguments
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 3:11 PM In reply to: Do CFL's Save Energy?? Doubtful. by MarsdaveYou've already paid for the energy input needed for manufacturing and shipping when you bought the CFL. I've seen CFLs sell for $1 or less frequently around here. I got 2 packs of 4 for free after rebate a year ago.
CFLs last way longer than incandescent bulbs. Incandescents aren't necessarily made in the US and even then still have to be shipped. I've had a lot of incandescents made in Hungary.
Here's page that talks about the math http://www.thebulb.com/store/t-cflmath.aspx. $0.12/kwh happens to be approximately what PG&E (my utility) charges for electricity.
Let's also look at CO2 production from you driving. It seems unlikely you have to drive 40 miles to get them recycled but anyhow, assuming 20 mpg, that'd mean you produced 40 pounds of CO2 per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/co2.shtml.
What Bogus Arguments??
by Marsdave - 1/26/08 3:32 PM In reply to: bogus arguments by cwerdnaRecycling: The recycling center for CFLs is about 20 miles away from my house. That's 40 miles roundtrip to drop off 5 CFL lightbulbs. That's a LOT of energy used to save some electricity.
Shipping: You're mixing dollars and energy. Of course I've paid for the shipping. The QUESTION was, how much ENERGY does it take to ship 5 CFLs from China to me - about 8000 miles. The shipping issue is "energy".
Cost: CFLs don't sell for $1 apiece around here... More like $8 each as I recall... But that's the $$$ side of things. We're talking energy first and dollars second.
As I said, I only use them in the summer to reduce the heat in the house. I RARELY use air conditioning, using it at most for 2 weeks in the summer when the heat and high humidity become intolerable.
The question is, Do CFLs save energy, considering the energy used to ship them 8,000 miles (in my case) and drive 40 miles roundtrip to recycle them (in my case)? And for other people?? It would be interesting to find out.
My point is that CFLs are most likely a bogus solution to saving energy. Altogether, they probably use FAR more energy than they save.
using cost of energy for where we don't know
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 3:51 PM In reply to: What Bogus Arguments?? by MarsdaveSince at least *I* can't give you the energy needed to ship the bulbs and make the bulbs, I'm going to assume that there's a cost and factor it into the cost of the bulb. I leave translating that back into energy use as an exercise for the reader.
I don't think you can tell me how much energy was required to manufacture and ship an incandescent bulb to you either. Also, since CFLs can last up to 10x longer than incandescents, that means less bulb and packaging waste.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/energystar/english/consumers/questions-answers.cfm talks about the many benefits of CFLs over incandescents.
To give you an example of cheap CFLs here, here's a now dead deal http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=557285. They were for an 8 pack for $2.89, making them $0.36 each.
However, one can make some calculations. Per http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html and my earlier link. 2 gallons of gas is 247K Btus. 230 Kwh is 784K Btus. 1000 Kwh used by a 100 watt bulb is 3.4 million Btus vs. 230 Kwh == 784000 Btus.
So, at least from the gasoline and bulb energy usage over an equal # of hours, there's definitely WAY less energy used.
C Fools L's
by Zensphere - 1/26/08 3:51 PM In reply to: Do CFL's Save Energy?? Doubtful. by MarsdaveWhat saves more energy, a 50 watt CFL or a 50 watt incandecent. They both use 50 Watts!... Which one has harmful mercury in it. Which one looks like crap.
CFLs use less power for a given amount of light
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 3:58 PM In reply to: C Fools L's by ZensphereIf you're trying to replace a 50 watt incandescent, you wouldn't replace it with a 50 watt CFL. You'd replace it w/one that puts out the equivalent amount of light. A 13 watt CFL puts out about the same amount of light as a 60 watt incandescent.
Read http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/energystar/english/consumers/questions-answers.cfm#better-environment about mercury but the CFLs can be recycled. Burning coal also produces mercury and other harmful emissions and it ends up in the AIR See http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/coal.html#Environment.
Unfortunately, per http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html, 49% of the electricity in the US comes from coal.
Software to measure energy use
by davidfoskey - 1/26/08 2:33 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Look here http://www.download.com/Home-Energy-Analysis-System/3000-2056_4-10623057.html?tag=lst-1 for some software that enables you to measure the total energy consumption, cost and CO2 equivalent of your home, school or office. www.countcarbon.com has more information.
David
Environmental savings
by davidfoskey - 1/26/08 2:47 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Reply to Rebeca
You asked for other ways to conserve energy. This does not apply to electric but to saving fuel for your cars or trucks. Cut emissions by at least 75% and get 7 to 15 % more miles per gallon on either gasoline or diesel. EPA registered #201220 001. GO GREEN without adding any hardware, go to mycatalyst.myffi.biz and mycatalyst.product.com. These sites will explain the product and it’s use. Can be ordered from those sites.
At today’s and tomorrows prices it’s economical, and cuts ground level harmful smog causing emissions. If all internal combustion engines used it, we would save as much fuel as we import from the Persian Gulf states. Burns the fuel in the engine not in the catalytic converter.Nothing for the converter to burn. The catalytic converter on your car just acts like a furnace to burn the unused fuel from the engine. Get the benefits of that amount of fuel in the engine not wasting it, to be burnt in exhaust system. It works! My computer shuts down automatically after 15minutes of no use. Radio Shack sells an amprobe that reads amps being used in any individual single wire, just clamps around the wire. Not all three in a service cord.
Harry D
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