Community Newsletter: Q&A: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics
- 1/30/08 12:54 AM
technology, energy, social values
by kaleo95060 - 1/26/08 9:56 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
How impolite to ask these important questions on this website!;)
I often wonder about my/our time spent on questions like plasma vs whatever, and then the vast amounts of money spent on electronics that the industry tells us is obsolete in a couple years when the latest/greatest is to come out. I also have to wonder at the gadgets that stop working after a couple/few months, and whether they're programmed to do so to support further spending. What happened to a time when we expected materials good to last and work for years? What about all the energy and waste we create with our insatiable desires for the latest and greatest gadgets, as cool, yet unnecessary as they are?
I have traveled the world quite a bit--and not to just so-called 1st world countries. I know that the cost of a plasma screeen could feed a family of 4 for over a year in Africa, and probably save a number of children from starvation. Due to my travels, I now rarely donate money to U.S. causes because I know we are so full of material resources, though, sadly, often lacking in spiritual ones.
I write this not to condemn anyone (or myself), just to offer some food for thought...
Advances in technology
by samjemb - 1/26/08 9:58 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
As I read through the many thoughtful and insightful posts about this issue, I noticed that no one seemed to consider the exponentially paced advances that are taking place in the technologies that we use every day.
There are incredible advances being made right now in almost all areas of physics (and it's sub-category, electronics) that will very shortly make today's computers and other electronic devices seem as ancient as the original vacuum tube based Univac computer from the 1940's.
Many of these advances are in the area of molecular memory storage (which will offer far greater storage density and will utilize far less energy than today's memory), solid state replacements for today's hard drives (some of which already exist and are already in production), far more efficient solar panels that promise to revolutionize the acquisition of renewable energy from the sun, and so much more. (For much more information about these new technologies, check out www.kurzweilai.net. This wonderful web site has volumes of information about the developments being made all around us and, if you wish, you can sign up for the newsletter which daily delivers to your email, information about these developments.)
My point is that yes, we should not use energy wastefully, but leaving your 2008 computer on 24/7 or viewing your plasma TV (which, by the way, will shortly be replaced by far more efficient and better looking display technologies) is simply not going to be an environmental issue. And like it or not, if modern civilization survives the many social and political threats that we are currently facing, we will continue to use more and more technology in our every day lives.
David
LAPTOPS are helping!!
by manwantok - 1/26/08 10:19 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I think laptops are really going to help in terms of the computer community's contribution to using less energy. True, there are hard core gamers and other power users who will never be able to get away from building their dream desktop with that 600 watt power supply, but to the average consumer, laptops have just as much horsepower as desktops there days. The Intel Core 2 Duo processor changed everything, and made it so that more cores rather then more Ghz gave you more power, so they were able to slap them into laptops and make them just as powerful as a desktop.
Personally, I haven't powered my desktop on in several months, I've been using my laptop. The power adaptor is only 65 watts, and my battery lasts 3 hours on a charge.
Another thing that is a good development is that LCD tv's are outselling plasmas. LCD uses a lot less electricity then a plasma, and so a lot of people are buying those. However, Panasonic just came out with some new plasmas that use a lot less electricity so it will be interesting to see if power consumption comes to the forefront of these technology wars.
Answer questions
by POGO3 - 1/26/08 10:29 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I had wondered about just how much power my computer used along with other electronic gadgets in my home. I bought a Kill-A-Watt meter on eBay and was amazed at the information it gave me. My computer is an ASUS A8S-x, Win 2000, 350 w PS, 7600GT video, 2 GB ram, 400 GB SATA, 300 GB ATA, Samsung 205BW 22" LCD, Altec speakers and here are the results.
Power on 185 watts, after boot 153 watts, monitor off after 15 min 120 watts and after monitor and HDs off from power save setting 104 watts. The cable modem and router are not included with this data as they are 24/7. I had asumed that the power consumption was much greater.
Waist versus energy consumed
by kcarrigan - 1/26/08 11:00 AM In reply to: Answer questions by POGO3Computers power consuming is efficient, as they use switching power supplies, power factor correctors built in (power as measured by comments above). Waist on the other hand, replacing with another computer, is another subject in itself. "60 minutes" or was it "20 20" showed overseas what a junk pile our computer waist generates. I suppose we need to 'recycle' our computers, which I hear is afoot.
Waist in general is a VERY serious problem, as our land fills build up and up. Some states actually ship trash to others as they have less land for trash (like New Jersey). So I guess we need "waist plasma disposal units" for organic trash (actually output can make fuel), and steel cycling for cars/computers/tvs etc.
On a side note, this 'ethanol from corn' on a whole scale from harvesting (takes fuel), making it (takes fuel) to transporting (takes fuel) and emissions of carbon CO2 are the same, what is the point of using corn or making ethanol? Actually in long run, this hurts us in the way of feed for cattle, corn prices, milk, etc. SAD the "GREEN" folks take this to an extreme to sell and push, when in fact I think is BAD! Lets make electric cars! WHY is Detroit not make total electric, are they in with Oil companies? Electric power is much cheaper, and much much more efficient.
Common Sense and Technology - Can we Learn a Lesson?
by jspeedo - 1/26/08 11:02 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Rebecca and all posters,
Obviously we all have some ideas about this. I have read several posts that blast technology, blame Americans for being wasteful, proudly display self serving "I almost live like a hermit lives", to heck with it; it is my choice and I will damn well do what I please - which interestingly the extremes on both sides use the argument of personal choice - it is just that they often do not include common sense and actual tips that help.
Some key points are:
1. Power consumption by computers and TVs is minimal as compared to Electric Heat (any kind - resistance, heat pump, portables), Dryers, Hot Water Heaters, hair dryers, anything involving heat. Next would be larger motor loads in the home - refrigerators, freezers, washing machines (but more because of hot water used). Turn down your thermostat – only turn on the lighting you need and efficiently plan your cooking and clothes drying. See post by marsdave on Jan 25 @ 11:08 pm for a longer list
2. Constantly turning off electronic components and light bulbs will shorten their life. So go ahead turn your TVs, computer, electronics, and light bulbs off and on frequently and save a few watts but expect a shortened life of the device. Ninety-five percent of every light bulb I’ve replaced blew out when I turned it on - the reason is the stress of the energizing of the filament. This illustrates where we can actually see the effect of applying electricity when first turning a device on. So remember that when you turn on an electronic component the next time - it is what you cannot see happening to all of the components every time you turn it on.
As for Global Warming and this constant state of fear of an impending doom on the planet I say shame on those who use science in bad ways – it is just that so many people have bought into it with its ubiquitous presence in the media. Michael Crichton wrote a very good book called State of Fear that although a work of fiction it is chock full of technical references and has a bibliography 31 pages long with technical references from the 3 years of research he did to write the book. This research affected his view of the environment and what is going on. Take some time to do some real research on your own – remember the most vocal scientist or theory proponent is not necessarily the most accurate. Do you need a fairly recent example of science gone bad – when facts are ignored and the opponents are shouted down and ridiculed? Ever hear of Eugenics? A theory that is now known to be so embarrassing it is not discussed much. It basically postulates that a crisis in the gene pool will lead to the deterioration of the human race. So in the early 1900’s leading scientists of the day convinced political leaders (Teddy Roosevelt, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Winston Churchill, among others) and other famous people of the day (Alexander Graham Bell, H. G. Wells, Leland Stanford – founder of Stanford) funded by Carnegie and Rockefeller studies were performed at Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton and John Hopkins. The research went on for over 50 years – anyone opposing it was shouted down and called blind to reality, ignorant, and uncaring for the future. Sound familiar? Well this research led directly to conclusions that inferior races were putting the human race at risk – need I tell the conclusion? Just a World War and the near annihilation of a race. After WW II no one was eugenicist and it was no longer taught in the hallowed halls of America’s and Europe’s Universities – but id did happen and it did wreak catastrophe on the Human Race after all.
1. Despite the many claims otherwise Global Warming is not a fact - vocal scientists, liberal universities, and media do not make it so. See jjtotten post from Jan 26 @12:55 am – for some unknown reason it is as if we must have something to always fear in our lives – it is a shame that many intelligent people lose themselves in these flavor of the decade media shams – remember on the slow news days they can always trot out the Global Warming, Green Environment, and others when in fact there are very real atrocities that should be addressed involving millions of innocent lives.
2. An Inconvenient Truth spread a lie about the relationship of CO2 rising causing the Global Temperature Rise - the facts show otherwise (another example of figures do not lie, liars refigure)
3. It is scientifically and statistically unsound to apply 100 years of weather data and extrapolate to a planet at least 10,000 years old if not billions. Many of the graphs used to support global warming eliminate data from the 1800’s because it does not support their position. Yes we are in some sort of warming trend that began mid 1800’s, which was preceded by a four-hundred year cold spell. Current computer model predictions vary by 400% on how much warming may occur in the next 100 years – that is proof in itself no one knows for sure. Please everyone leave your passion and move to common sense:
Of course it makes sense to use efficiently - everything - water, gas, electric power, the environment - I was taught that before Green and Global Warming were popular - heck so were my parents - they had to share bath water when they were kids!
Technology and whatever
by crumbug - 1/26/08 7:39 PM In reply to: Common Sense and Technology - Can we Learn a Lesson? by jspeedoSo Rebecca, what is your opinion by now? Like jspeedo says about the media, if they don't have an exciting story they will build it into one. If you worry about everything they say you would not eat, drink or breath anything. One week something is bad for you the next it is good. Me, I am going to eat, breath and drink. Play, laugh, and be happy as I have always done. I will probably out live all those worry-worts, and soap box "experts". HERE'S TO A LONG AND HAPPY LIFE! May you all enjoy it.
Technology and Whatever
by Remag1234 - 1/27/08 6:04 AM In reply to: Technology and whatever by crumbugcrumbug, Bravo and kudos to you. I am of the same mindset as you. The Media is one of our worst enemies and the "so-called" experts and next in line. Of all the responses I've read, yours' IMHO is the Best.
Global Warming is Nothing But BS
by Remag1234 - 1/26/08 11:54 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
For Rebecca and others concerned.
Global warming is a Natural process that has gone on for MILLIONS of years. Other replies have made some very good points, ie. hot water heaters. The GW hype is just that HYPE and a money maker for the likes of AL Gore and corn growers [ethanol]. There is enough oil to last forever [don't forget, as we use it more is being made]. Why won't the kookie environmentalists let us drill in all the places WE have oil reserves? Yet everyone complains that we are dependent on foreign countries for oil Doesn't make sense, does it. Try this reality check: Check out the electric power usage in various cities, businesses and so on. example: LAS VEGAS, NYC building that are closed for the night [Empire State Building] and the list goes on and on. Why aren't they worried about GW and cut down on electric usage. France for 1 has been using Nuclear Power Plants for the last 50+ years WITHOUT ANY MELTDOWN or other problems. Ask yourself "WHY DOESN'T AMERICA HAVE NUCLEAR PLANTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
So Rebecca, leave your computer on, use hot water, drive your car and stop worrying. Enjoy life and all it has to offer. Nature will take care of it without any help from Government [which screws up everything it touches].
electronics and the environment
by stuflash - 1/26/08 12:52 PM In reply to: Global Warming is Nothing But BS by Remag1234The environmental impacts of electronic devices are threefold:
First -- the impacts related to the production (i.e., manufacture and distribution) of devices;
Second -- the impacts related to the use of the devices -- primarily energy use, but perhaps secondarily EMF (i.e., radio wave) production for cell phones and wireless devices;
Third -- impacts related to disposal of devices.
There are concerns in all three areas, although much of the discussion centers on the second.
As devices get smaller, impacts related to their production generally decrease, although use of some materials, like gold, have disproportionate impacts -- modern gold mining is very environmentally destructive and tends to occur in fragile environments.
Use impacts are primarily energy use. Theoretically, if you ran your device "off the grid" using renewable energy sources (e.g., solar or wind powered electivity generation) there would be almost zero impact. As has been pointed out, electronic devices consume far less energy than many other household and offices uses, especially heating and cooling. I'd start by looking at where your power comes from and reducing heating, cooling, and major appliance demands. Still, it's worth looking at improving energy efficiency of even little things. My rule is to shut down my computer (I usually use hibernate, to reduce restart time) when I'm gone for more than two hours. Under Windows or Mac systems, you can shut down your display and hard disk when the computer remains idle. This also reduces power consumption. (In Windows, right click on the desktop, choose properties,click the screensaver tab, then click the "power" button near the bottom. The tabs provide various power-saving options.)
Using a power strip for device charger adaptors, and turning off the strip when not in use, will save an incremental amount. Turning off mobile devices when not in use extends battery life and reduced power use. These are "small potato" changes, but every bit helps.
When you replace a device, try to recycle it. Some areas offer free services, as do some manufacturers (notably Dell, HP, and Apple). Reuse is better than recycling, so donating an old cell phone or computer extends its life and is far more productive.
One last thing, how often you replace devices is, from an environmental standpoint, a balancing act. new devices are often more efficient and, because they do more in less time, often save energy that way as well. Further, as standards improve, impacts usually decrease (by analogy, a new Prius uses far less energy, and creates far less pollution, than a '59 Chevy Impala). However, each time you buy a new device, you incur production and disposal impacts. Often the old New England adage is worth considering, "Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without."
energy & global warming
by jeffreymicheal - 1/26/08 12:18 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
my concern is to save as much energy as possible by using energy efficent bulbs and appliances. we have saved on our electic and gas. we try to concerve with our car as well we do alot of traveling as our childern live in ark., & ok. & we live in wi..
One little thing I do
by d.schwartfeger - 1/26/08 12:42 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Many people seem to leave computers on for long periods, some of this may be due to startup time and some to help hard drive life. Personally if I'm not likely to be using it for half an hour or so I turn it off. I consider the savings on power will probably pay for a new drive by the time it is going to fail. Just make sure you keep backups regularly. Also if startup time is a concern then consider hibernation mode.
Well, I'll answer the question since people like to debate
by FoxFord - 1/26/08 1:19 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Computers can be Energy Star rated (specifically monitors), and computers also have a standby/hibernate mode. In regards to computers, I would recommend getting a laptop due to its reduced energy consumption. Desktops seem to be growing exponentially in terms of power (250W power supplies now to 1000W/1KW), and laptops are usually at most 85W. Be warned, though, that purchasing a laptop over a desktop because the concept it's better for the environment may be a fallacy. Though the laptop has reduced energy consumption, Lithium Ion batteries had to be produced for the laptop.
The best way to handle reduced current consumption is best handled by purchasing only what you need. Remember, there's an impact not only by using the device but also by producing it. If you need to purchase something, look at the box to determine (if any information is available) the power it needs. If it only lists the current and voltage (example is 7.5 Volts (V) and 500 milliamps/.5 amperes (mA/A, there are 1000 mA in an A)), multiply the voltage and the current draw in amperes to get the power needed in Watts(7.5V*0.5Amperes or 7.5V*(500mA/1000)=3.75 Watts). If it's not available on the box, look it up online, do research. When it comes to devices with batteries (i.e. cell phones), look at the amount of standby time and talk time the device has as well as the battery capacity. The longer the times at the same battery capacity, the less you have to charge the device, and the less power you use overall.
As for responsibilities, I as an Electrical Engineer feel that it is our duty to ask the manufacturer how much of an impact the device has, not just in use but also in manufacturing. If consumers ask for this, the manufacturers will respond. I've replaced my light bulbs with compact florescent lights, use only the lights that are needed, and try to purchase only what I need and what is energy efficient. I also push at work for more energy efficient designs.
No simple answers to energy saving.
by 6966neil - 1/26/08 1:21 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Where does the energy that we use up go? Law of thermodynamics "heat is work and work is heat". We cannot be using electricity without producing heat. Now I live in a cold country, Scotland, I use electric heating. If I don't use my electronic toys my heating system will sense a drop in tempersture & just make up for the defecit. Consequence of this is that switching my toys off makes almost no difference to my energy bills. So, simplistic environmental models have got their math wrong again, because few researchers study the detail enough.(But I do not leave my toys on standby 24/7, reduce the fire risk) If you live in a hot country, and you need air conditioning, then cutting back on using your toys will have twice the effect on cutting energy bills, since not using the PC will mean you may not need the AC. But remenber, man-made climate change is a theory (some say a conspiracy) not a fact. Man-made poverty is a fact, and it's what we really ought to be working against.
Common Sense Approach
by WildClay - 1/26/08 1:33 PM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I saw many posts where it is suggested you get a meter to measure what each device you use consumes in power, and while it is a perfectly valid suggestion, you can also do two things that will give you a pretty good idea with no meter.
The first is just read the label that tells you how many watts something draws and granted this is worse case, not average or actual for a given moment, but it will give you a good idea of your power hogs and those things that use very little power.
The second runs along the lines of common sense, things with big motors like refrigerators, AC Units, Forced Air heating blowers, Washers, dryers, etc are going to take a lot of power compared to say a PC no matter how Energy Star it might be. This generally applies to anything the makes heat or cold, so your stove, water heater, space heaters, any heating system except a wood fireplace, are again going to eat up a lot more power than a PC will ever use.
As for your PC, my suggestion is to turn it off if it is not going to be in use for extended periods of time, more than a couple of hours. For most consumer electronics I think you want to look at what your preferences are unless you are a true "green" person and get the right product for the function you plan to use it for.
To me the price/performance trade-off of a portable PC vs a desktop or tower is hardly worth the difference in power usage.
Now if you want to really go green, count up the number of those little black box power supplies you leave plugged in to the wall 24x7 even when you are not charging your cell phone, or using the thing hooked to it and get all but the essential ones on power strips that make it easy to turn them off.
Overall, lowering your heat a few degrees or raising you AC temp a little, lower you water heater temp, getting energy star appliances, and driving less will make far more difference than your PC habits will ever do, that said, every little bit helps.
Personally, I tend to turn things off as it makes most things last longer, I make an exception for my cable modem, router, and cable TV box as powering them off at the wall is very disruptive in most cases.
There are a lot of little things you can do and it will all add up to using less power, but I would look at the big things first, heating and cooling your home, use of the washer and dryer, stove/oven and driving, then move to the smaller stuff like your TV down to your computer, and finally all these transformers to charge or power small things.
| Forum legend: | |
 |
Locked thread |
 |
Moderator |
 |
CNET staff |
 |
Samsung staff |
 |
Norton Authorized Support team |
 |
AVG staff |
 |
Windows Outreach team |
 |
Dell staff |
 |
Intel staff |
