Community Newsletter: Q&A: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics
- 1/30/08 12:54 AM
Please see post #5 by Jake Jr 7 plus this one...
by BA in So Cal - 1/26/08 7:06 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
This get green media driven whacko babble has gotten out of hand. In a few months we'll be told there is something else we should fear and worry about. I remember the old ploy of "Reduce Reuse and Recycle". Companies use this only when it is there interest to make profit. My favorite is a bottled water company whose "Environmentally Friendly" bottle is still plastic... just thinner plastic. Cheaper to make = more profit. Relax. Don't fret about things. Especially the things the media tells us to fear. Let's worry about how we treat each other instead of how we treat the environment.
energy efficiancy by manufacturers
by Grand Alf - 1/26/08 7:19 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
First I would like to say Hi to all, manufactureres do make energy efficant machines, and in fact we should all try our best to buy them, and further, it actualy pays for everyone to do so, as we are running out, and the price will escalate, so keeping the price down means we force the price down, eventualy, and in so doing contribute. Our government has spent millions of pounds developing nuclear power, and before any one goes ape, it is the only thing we can do at the moment, because they, meaning previous governments, havnt planned better, and so allowed others to dictate how much we pay, as well as influence our policies eg: we will cut your energy off if you dont do........., this can not be allowed. and no I dont like it any more that you do, we must as a country invest in greener projects, desalination must be one of the ways to go, to help our water supplies, more water turbines, and wind turbines, again I say no I dont particularly like them but reality is today not tomorrow, we realy dont have a choice, and all energy making ideas should not be taxed in any way. Im sorry I got a bit off the subject. There are rated washing machines, eco kettles, ovens, hobs, more could be done but it will only be so if we demand it, and dont buy the other rubbish things, we have the power, no one else, so make a stand and do the right thing, otherwise we, yes that means you, will be dictated to, and I for one dont like being dictated to, how about you?.
Energy savings are simple to achieve and simply logical
by Pananonica - 1/26/08 8:09 AM In reply to: energy efficiancy by manufacturers by Grand AlfI have to scratch my head over some of the replies (Jake, etc.) that dismiss the very concept of energy savings as being a fundamentally good idea. Why would one not try to take some very simple steps to save energy, consequently reduce our fossil fuel consumption and keep some money in their pocket too?
Steps to significant home energy savings include:
Shut down your computers and home entertainment systems when not in use. This literally takes seconds if one has a line switch for the systems and uses it each evening after first shutting off the computer using the proper shutdown on-screen toggle. Both will take a few moments to repower up the next day, but it's hardly a big deal.
The reason for doing this is phantom power draws, which can be significant, resulting from leaving the equipment on. For many computers this is the same as running a 150-200 watt lightbulb all the time. For home entertainment systems with numerous components it also adds up.
As for the plasma vs LCD energy hog question, both have new models which are pretty efficient. My Samsung 40" costs some $5/month to run 8 hours a day, and a Panasonic 42" plasma some $6/month. Go to CNET's great energy saving page before you buy to check this and other energy and environment related information on electronics out.
Regarding lightbulbs, of course we should all be using compact fluorescents at this point. A 75 watt incandescent equivalent only uses 20-25 watts, so why wouldn't one do this? You save significant money in the course of a year and it reduces national fuel demands, a primary reason we're mired in the Middle East, never mind global warming implications (sorry, gang, but it's now well accepted science).
When buying appliances make sure their Energy Star certified and check out their energy consumption on the Energy Star yellow info sheet attached at the store. And little things, like keeping your heat turned down at night and at a reasonable level during the day. In Europe it's simply a custom to do this, people wear sweaters during the cold weather season as a matter of course. No big deal.
Finally, cars. There's a great variety of energy efficient cars now available with more in the pipeline, and really no good reason to be driving some beast getting 12 mpg, again exacerbating our oil dependency on the Middle East. Hybrids are great, but even for the more sporting among us there are many options getting in the mid to high 20's (both my Miata and 6 average 27 mpg and are a ball to drive, now all that's needed is a fun and sporty hybrid!).
Our nation, like it or not, is the greatest energy hog in the world. We have 4% of the population, yet use some 25% of the world's energy output. We can keep our heads in the sand about the long term effects of these habits, but the example we set is being picked up by the growing economies of China and India which will magnify the impacts.
Choice is a good thing, I'm the last to argue with it as an avid consumer. But why not enjoy our great range of choices while also saving some money and treading gently on our planet too?
electricity usage has little connection w/the Middle East
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 1:40 PM In reply to: Energy savings are simple to achieve and simply logical by PananonicaWhile I'm of the camp that human behavior is probably contributing to global warming, have switched many of my bulbs to CFLs and have a Prius, saving electricity will do little to wean us of our dependence on the Middle East.
Per http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html, only 1.7% of electricity generated in the US came from petroleum. Most of it came from coal of which the US has PLENTY of.
Electricity Waste = Burnt Coal = Less Time for My Daughter
by djemit - 1/26/08 7:33 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I know that seems a little drastic but it is becoming a conscious collective thought in humanity. For me, it's my daugther's world and I feel guilty for what we have done for this world... I get excited over hydrogen vehicles, full electric plug-in hybrids and turbine wind generators now. Theres 5 different recycling bins in my house and my computers' run the program LOCAL COOLING from www.localcooling.com. It helps me to stay environmentally conscious even when I am not. It turns off your screen and even puts your computer to sleep when there is inactivity on your computer. It also lets you know how much of the "world" you have saved.
LOCAL COOLING
Yes, I turn them off...
by brian.nystrom - 1/26/08 7:35 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
...but it's really much more than just computers and electronics. If you want to save energy, turn off lights when you don't need them, shut off your car engine rather than letting it idle and so on. We have become addicted to cheap energy and complacent about wasting it. Now that it's neither cheap monetarily or environmentally, it's time for a shift in public attitude. "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" was the mantra of the original environmental movement decades ago and it's long past time that we took it seriously.
Individual Responsibility
by lkbrown5 - 1/26/08 7:43 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
You have aready answered your question with the worlds "individual repsonsbility." If each individual turned off their computer when not in use, think of how much energy would be saved.
Over the last few years, I have really given serious thought to how the way I live my life affects the planet--and my pocketbook--and I have made some serious changes.
Yes the plasma TV's do consume large amounts of energy (and I would never purchase one for that very reason), yet if individual consumers inform themselves about the consequences of their choices, make their concerns known to manaufacturers--and/or make reponsible purchases, manufactures will get the message. Many have and green is in--except, it seems, when it comes to electronics. (I wonder why?)
I live in a state in which the cost of using water has increased by 50% over the last 2 years and energy costs have doubled in the past 14 months, and we face an additional 5% increase this summer. As a result I have a garden of only native and douught resistant plants, have replaced all of my light bulbs with compact florescents, use as much natural light as possible, installed a programable thermostat, keep the house much cooler in winter and warmer in summer, use my clothes dryer sparingly--if at all--signed up for electricity that is produced by 100% wind power (even though I pay more for it), and unplugged all of those instant on devices, that I don't need instantly.
At work I also turn of my computer when not in use, turn the lights off in my classroom when there is lots of natural light and when the room is empty. Our school recycles paper. I take paper that is printed on one side home with me to re-use in my printer at home--and all of my class assignments are printed double-sided when possible. (Our school spends $14K per year just for paper. If I was working with more capable students, I could use less paper, but my students aren't able to copy information accurately, or quicky enough to complete a lesson in the allotted time.)
I shop twice a month at the local farmer's market--buying local produce and eating what is in season (its about 30% cheaper plus the $ goes directly to the people who produced it)--not at the supermarket where food that is not ripe when picked and has been stored in warehouses (or food has been flown in from other countries)then trucked across the country to my town. Think of the energy used!
I live 3 miles from where I work (and as bad as my school is, even if I could get a transfer, any other school would be a much longer commute). If I were younger--and hadn't had a knee surgery that left me with limited mobility in one knee--I'd ride a bike to work. I wish I could afford a Prius but the choice was between a Prius on one hand and paying the mortgage off early and being able to retire sooner on the other hand--and retiring early won. (I don't think anyone who teaches high school would have made a different choice.)
I have a long way to go though. I still need to find, and begin using, more cleaning products that are environmentally friendly, I should compost my garbage. And although I had new energy-efficient windows installed, and am buying energy saving window converings, I still need more insulation--and I plan to do that when I get a new and more energy efficient roof installed.This year I plan to get energy effiecient exterior doors.
My city has a good recycling program which has really be embraced by almost everyone--but there is still so much plastic that can't be recycled via the progam, and out city is on the verge of banning plastic bags.
Our technology may make out lives simpler but it also creates more responsibilities and jobs done by people--especailly trose eliminated by technology in service industries, must be done by us in addition to our own jobs. We are all so busy that, trying to keep up with all of our responsibilities that we have little time to reflect on anything, including the consequences of any our actions, and their impact on the planet.
I know we were talking about electronics, but it really is about more than that and each none of us CAN make a difference. You may think that difference is small but remember even the ocean is made of individual drops of water.
Computer energy use
by dwstockman - 1/26/08 7:48 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Rebecca,
I bought a KILL A WATT meter from newegg.com for $20. It will tell you how much energy and power you are using for any appliance with a standard 15 amp, 120 volt plug. You can compare how much power you are using in different modes (on, standby, off, etc.)and make informed decisions about what to turn off. I have several computers at home, none of which are critical to leave on, and they are all in OFF or HIBERNATE when we are done with them. And I hit the OFF switch on the surge protectors which gives a little more protection to surges and power use.
As computer processing power goes up over time, the chips themselves become more efficient out of necessity. They would become too hot to operate, and so the voltage they operate at continues to drop. My most recent build has an Athlon 5200 dual core with lots of goodies and, unless my sons are gaming on it, it only draws 110 watts.
Recycling is the edge of the sword I have not been good about, as old models that I can't even give away continue to stack up in my basement. Just don't throw them in the trash.
Dave
Environment impact of consumer electronics
by mccoyjm - 1/26/08 7:56 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Take a look what you have plug-in. I had a switch box set up on my cable and was not using it but it was still typed in and powered up. If you have second computer unplug it when not in use. I am very bad on leaving cell phone charger plug in when not in use. This apply with any charger they still use power when plug in.
Practical answers to a simple question
by quickrick - 1/26/08 8:12 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Dear Rebecca,
Listen to Jakejr7 who posted almost 3 hrs. ago. I'm flabbergasted at the host of cooky responses that I've read here. Jake gave you a very practical and common sense answer. Here's mine;
Your computer does NOT consume large amounts of electricity. Like Jake, I leave mine on 24/7. That's mainly because I access it remotely from time to time. The computer itself uses only a few watts of power - particularly in idle mode. The monitor is a different story. When you leave or, are just not using the computer, do what my son does who is a computer expert...he simply turns off the monitor. That's what uses all the juice.
Now, if you really want to conserve energy (whether that's for the environment or the economy, here's a few tips:
1. Hot water heating is the most energy consuming appliance you own.
- Wrap it with an insulation blanket.
- Turn the temperature thermostat on the hot water heater down so that your not losing as much energy (the higher the termperature differential between the hot water temperature and ambient - the more energy is lost). With these two measures will will notice a difference in your hot water bill.
- Alternatively, Install a solar hot water heater. You completely eliminate the cost of the energy!!! And, solar hot water heating is the single most cost effective (return on investment) purchase you can make.
2. Purchase an amprobe. If you have any technical ability whatsoever, you can use an amprobe to measure how much current each and every circuit is using. It simply clips around the wire feeding each circuit (breaker box) and displays the amperage going through the wire. An amprobe can be purchased for as little as $30. If you need any assistance with this just send a reply.
3. Human comfort -when it comes to house heating, your comfort level is a function of RH. Keep the RH at a comfortable level. Your house is like a humidity pump in the winter. When it gets dry (you'll know because of the static electricity) you will want to turn up the thermostat. If you keep the RH at a comfortable level you won't feel the need to turn up your thermostat. Besides, virus's can penetrate your body's natural defense system better when your mucous membranes are dry. Hence, you'll have few colds if you keep the RH up. Keep the RH from dropping below 40%. Don't try to go above 50% because your cold windows will simply suck the excess moisture out of the air.
Hope this helps.
additonally items of concern
by kcarrigan - 1/26/08 8:41 AM In reply to: Practical answers to a simple question by quickrickConsuming electricity in the winter for heat is a big one, but let's remind ourselves that if we use HEAT PUMPS, they typically have a 300-600 percent efficiency with the amount of electricity used, versus heat output. Can't beat that! Sucking heat out of 20F degree weather is for 70 degree house has always amazed me.
Laptop computers are highly efficient down to the processor. This is because it runs off batteries. Desk Tops on the other hand are not designed efficient like this, waist a lot of power. Power draw from them are 450 watts for PC's, monitors come in all sizes but consume MUCH LESS power then TV's as a whole.
Now POWER suckers in the home, OVENS (10KW), Hot water (5-20kW), Washing machine/Dryer (10kW), Hair driers (1.5kW), refrig (1.2kW), microwave oven (900W), but in general, TV's are less then 500W - more in the realm of computers with monitors.
My question to all is Windmills, Solar cells, Solar radiation for heating, are these practical for harry home owner over the long run. I know for a fact the solar cells are not efficient for harry to spend money to install as the payback is terrible. For consumers, we need COST effectiveness AND energy efficiency. I'd love a TESLA car, but at $100k it's not cost effective for me.
incorrect about PC power usage
by cwerdna - 1/26/08 1:35 PM In reply to: additonally items of concern by kcarriganJust because a machine has 450 watt power supply doesn't mean it actually DRAWS 450 watts. You need to measure it with a device like a Kill-A-Watt.
See http://priuschat.com/forums/environmental-discussion/17498-kill-watt-rocks-2.html#post227651 for the readings I took. My Athlon 64 3200+ system w/450 watt PSU draws ~101 watts at idle.
May I suggest a Bigger Picture Perspective?
by patmandbn2 - 1/26/08 9:12 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Rebecca,
I think you raise an interesting question in relating consumer electronics to our carbon footprint (or whatever view of protecting our environment you prefer). As a part of the automotive industry, I've given this some thought.
In your question and the replies that I've read, I've noticed that the focus is on the power that the computers and monitors use themselves. To me, that it looking at merely one small aspect of a much larger picture. I prefer to ask different questions.
I think that we can all agree that the energy usage of a computer is small when compared to my furnace, SUV, A/C, sprinklers or a flight to Europe. Therefore, I would ask, "Is there a way that I can use my computer to save energy (or other naturat resource) somewhere else?"
For example, if I shop for something, I will do most research online, and be pretty smart by the time I decide to get in the SUV and make the purchace. Sometimes, I will even purchase directly online. In this case, I trade the energy use of the computer against driving the SUV around from store to store trying to learn. I might even eliminate the need for travel all together!
So, how long can I keep my computer on to equal driving 20 miles around town?
With broadband and my cell phone, I don't even need to drive to work every day. Heck, NetMeeting has saved me a few trips to Europe for work (hmmm, I might not wanna take this too far....I really like going to Europe 
It also saves me trips around town for meetings.
What if I leave my computer on continuously and let it control my furnace and A/C system?? I don't need to buy a separate controller (that helps the cause) and it's a smarter controller than most of what you can buy anyway. I could even login from remote locations when my plans change to save even more energy!
What about packaging and other material waste? I've recently been investigating the integration of my PC into my Home Theatre. There are some interesting environmental trade-off opportunities here. If I download a movie to watch, I can save:
a trip to Blockbuster
a delivery from NetFlix
the need to produce a DVD in the first place
the need to wrap and ship the DVD
the need to toss the DVD when it's scratched
...or when it's out on Blu-Ray
That leads me to the other consideration I've been investigating which is obsolescence. I actually think that this is far larger than the direct energy consumption. For example, I'm a bit of an audio nut, so I:
bought records
bought record player
tossed records and player
bought cassette decks(s)
bought cassettes
tossed cassette deck (the rubber parts died...)
ripped mix tapes to mp3 (was a hit at my reunion
bought CD player
bought VHS Hi-Fi
upgraded to DVD player (that was backward compatible)
now waiting for Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD war to end...
I think you get the point. I'll be tossing my analog TV on top of this heap soon...I can imagine a world knee-deep in old TV's, computers and disposable contacts.
However, putting the focus back on my Home Theater computer, to upgrade now only requires a drive upgrade rather than the entire stand-alone compuent. I reuse the case, cards, amps, connections, cords and other converter circuits. It will also save me lots of money!
I hope that my specific examples serve to illustrate the larger point - we can use consumer electronics as a big lever to reduce our environmental impact in non-consumer electronic areas. I think if there are enough of us looking for these kinds of opportunities, then we'll eventually find them!
Take care,
Patrick
Rebecca on Environment impact
by crumbug - 1/26/08 9:25 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Rebecca, the way I look at it.. when the ones that holler about conservation start to conserve, I will start to worry.
for instance.. Robert Redford, ski resort built out of what? Trees?
Al Gore, big ole, huge houses how many? and how much impact do they have? just to name a couple...
Me I will watch TV, run my computers, and drive my car when and where I want. I am paying the bills! And as one person said, it will evolve into non-humans, then there will be no need to worry a million years from now.
Doom & Gloom
by Zensphere - 1/26/08 9:43 AM In reply to: Environmental impact concerns of consumer electronics by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I'm glad you’re all saving energy so I can use it... And I do! I love my Carbon Footprint. I hope you all live in Tee-Pee's using one square of toilet paper a day. I'm on the other end of the spectrum and plan on colonizing Mars and beyond. While you liberals are joining the other religions that want to go back to the seventh century. I look to the future and realize where there is action, there is reaction. You small minded hippy liberal potheads will never advance humanity. I can’t wait to play Crysis with a triple SLI GeForce 9800 GX-2 powered by a 2000W power supply. And that computer connected to an HD projector and a 13 channel THX certified surround sound system. My Mech-Warrior will be in the next PC/Mac guy commercial obliterating Mac guy… It won’t be pretty
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