MP3 players: Is my music collection wasted on a Sony A818? (and other qs)
Is my music collection wasted on a Sony A818? (and other qs)
by grarap - 1/1/08 1:09 PMHey all. I currently have a music collection of around 1000 songs, comprised of approximately 25-30 ripped CDs. The issue here is that I accidentally ripped everything at either 128kbps WMA or 192kbps MP3 a few months back, and in all honestly I can't be bothered re-ripping anything unless absolutely necessary.
Problem is that I have my eye on a Sony A818, which I'd love to get for its supposed awesome music quality. What I want to know is whether such low bitrates and mediocre codecs will actually get a performance boost on such a player, or whether settling for a player with a lesser emphasis on stellar quality yet more features (like the Zen 16gb) would be a better investment. If so, I'd like a few questions about the Zen answered too (God, I'm demanding), like what the build quality and battery life are like.
Another option is to get the iPod Classic (no Zune - I live in the UK) and re-rip everything in glorious lossless format with room to spare. Then again, I usually only listen to my music on the train, and such quality may be wasted on me. I hear that most people can't tell the difference between 128 and 256 anyway, and I'm certainly no audiophile. The entire hard drive thing has me nervous too. I don't like moving parts, and apparently HDs are on the cusp of falling out of fashion. Besides, I hear that the 'pod has numerous software issues.
It may be a good pick, but consider that iPod
by electronista - 1/1/08 3:36 PM In reply to: Is my music collection wasted on a Sony A818? (and other qs) by grarapIf nothing else, the A818 will ensure that you're getting as close to the actual quality of the encoding as possible. And if you add new music or decide to re-rip, you'll have that option.
What sort of earbuds do you use? If you always use the pack-ins, the A818 will sound better if just because of the quality stock earbuds. But if you use something better, you'll still stand to benefit from encoding at higher quality and using the iPod classic. You can't get much better than a perfect recreation of the CD (save for the music studio's master recording).
As for software issues with the iPod, my brother owns an 80GB classic and hasn't reported any real issues with it. The 1.0.3 firmware update seems to have worked out whatever quirks there were, though in this case the player was fairly well-behaved to begin with.
Today's your lucky day!
by methos1979 - 1/3/08 10:14 AM In reply to: Is my music collection wasted on a Sony A818? (and other qs) by grarapBecause I have recently been looking at just these issues! I own the Creative ZEN 16GB version. I have a couple thousand songs I ripped years ago from my CD collection at 128 because I didn't know any better. I now have Napster-to-go which has songs a 192. I finally found some decent headphones after auditioning about 10 different pairs here. I settled on some nice Denon AH-C700's which Amazon recently dropped from $199 down to $99 with free shipping.
First let me say that the Creative line of players has great audio quality just like the Sony. The Sony gets a slight nod in audio quality because they package them with better quality earbuds right out of the box, something they should be applauded for. Even so, most people have different hearing needs so many will look for a better headphone anyway. But for those who don't care that much and will always just use whatever comes with a player, the Sony is an outstanding choice.
Now, on to the music. Just yesterday I was considering the very thing you are asking about rip rates and quality. Now that I have a player with great audio quality, and some really high quality headphones to go with it, I was wondering about the quality of my ripped music. I went in to check them was dissappointed to find they were all ripped at the 128 bit rate.
So I took three CD's from my collection: Aerosmith's Aerosmith (sometimes referred to as the Dream On album), Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, and Radiohead's OK Computer. I chose the first one for it's known crappy recording quality, and the last two for it's known great recording quality. I re-ripped all three CDs at 192, 320, VBR wma (variable bit rate) and Loss Less WAV's. The Creative does not support the LL WAV's so I couldn't listen to those on the ZEN, but I could listen to them on the computer. Here is what I noticed:
There was not too much difference between any of the tracks. Probably the biggest differenct was between the 128 and the 320 bit rates on the ZEN. Even then, the difference was minimal. Mostly they were just a little cleaner, detailed sounding with respect to the softer nuances like cymbal and high-hat hits, and some of the softer, mellower stuff. With respect to bass, most mids and vocals there was not enough of a difference on the ZEN to make it worth re-ripping the CD's not to mention the extremely larger size. For reference here is an example of the size differences on Aerosmith's song Mama Kin - a 4:25 minute song:
128 mp3 = 4.04 MB
192 wma = 6.09 MB
320 mp3 = 10.1 MB
882 wma = 26.9 MB
LL wav = 40.1 MB
Yikes! So if you have the space and want to rip at a higher rate than that's fine. But even with a higher audio quality player like the Sony or the ZEN, and a higher quality headphone, the difference is not going to be huge, although the size of the files certainly will.
My plan at this rate is to slowly go through my collection when I'm bored and re-rip CD's that are generally more 'headphone' type recordings anyway, like all the Pink Floyd stuff and other music of that genre that would benefit, however slightly, from a better bit rate. I'll probably go ahead and rip them at 320. With 16 GB I have enough room to have my 'classics' recorded at a higher rate, I figure. Now that I use the subscription music I rotate through new stuff so much anyway and the old classics only the get the occaisonal listen anyway.
I'd say you can't go wrong with either the Sony or the ZEN. If you're not the type to go out and spend another hundred bucks on some good headphones then go with the Sony. The Creative's build is fine. The buttons seem plasticy and cheap, and I like Sony's buttons better, but I like the Creative screen and menu system and I like having the 16 GB with the available SD slot. Don't forget the 32 GB is coming out shortly too. I haven't had any problems with the ZENs buttons yet. The whole front face of the ZEN is shiny and so prone to fingerprint smudges and scrathes if you don't put it into some kind of case. The batterlife if very good for audio if you turn the screen off when just listening to music. This is done by putting the 'hold switch' on. Otherwise the screen just dims after a few seconds but stays on. With the screen off people have reported getting up to 30 hours of playback time. With the screen on and constantly going in and playing with buttons, more like 12 hours. I hear the Sony has excellent battery life.
I would avoid the iPod completely, but that's just me. I hate iPods. Their sound quality is pretty lame to begin with so ripping everthing to Lossless just to play it on those unit's seems like a waste of time to me. But again, when you're talking about dap's (digital audio players) in general, you can only get so much audio quality out of them anyway. I think to really notice the difference in higher bite-rate ripped music you would need to invest even more in headphones and portable amps for your dap. And then you start to get into big money and lose out on the whole purpose of mp3 players to begin with, which is portability.
You could always take just one of your favorite CD's and try re-ripping it like I did and see which sounds best on whatever player you decide upon.
Good luck and let us know what you ended up going with.
M
I appreciate the reply!
by grarap - 1/3/08 10:36 AM In reply to: Today's your lucky day! by methos1979Thanks for your time methos. After comparing the difference betwen bitrates yesterday and doing some primitive maths just now, I've calculated that re-ripping my CD collection at 192kbps (a good compromise for my ears) would probably come to around 4gb in total. Add that to my downloaded music and I have around 7 gigs taken up. That leaves 1 gigs for podcasts and movies on the Sony. Perfect!
Yup, I decided to go with the Sony after all. Reading your admission that the Creative doesn't feel solidly built and scratches easily was confirmation that it wasn't really what I wanted. With my borderline neurosis (self-diagnosed), a well built device is as important to me as sound quality. After all, my previous player was a 4 gig Zen V Plus, and its horribly plasticity was the one thing that I couldn't stand about it.
Besides, plopping down a hundred greenbacks (or whatever you Yanks call them) for a pair of decent headphones is a cost not to be glossed over. What I really had to ask myself was whether a FM radio, SD expansion and a better screen was worth the extra cost that would be entailed in purchasing the Zen. In the end I decided that it wasn't. As long as its decent enough for music and podcasts, every other feature in a DAP is auxilliary to my needs.
So thanks for the advice. Whenever I listen to Mama Kin in the future, I'll think back to your post. As soon as I buy the album that is.
Oh, and I agree about the iPod. I never really wanted to get one anyway!
iPod audio quality
by electronista - 1/3/08 10:52 AM In reply to: Today's your lucky day! by methos1979I'm not sure if I'd say the iPod's quality is "lame" -- it's just not necessarily as good as it could be. But it'll be good enough to clearly show the difference from higher-quality earbuds and, potentially, higher-quality bitrates. I can tell the difference between 128Kbps AAC and the 256/320Kbps AACs and MP3s I listen to, even if it's slight at times.
That said, unless you plan to go hog wild ripping tracks or intend to carry a lot of videos or podcasts, a small collection doesn't need 80GB of storage.
You're quite welcome!
by methos1979 - 1/4/08 9:35 AM In reply to: iPod audio quality by electronistaI enjoy sharing the information I find out here, as well as learning from others. I think you made a good choice in the Sony. Truth be told, the new Sonys were not available when I was looking to upgrade. Had they been, it would have been a serious contender. I like the look and build quality of the Sony better than the ZEN, I also like the superior battery life and audio quality on the Sony over the ZEN. I really don't watch video's at all so the ZEN's bigger screen would not have mattered much to me. The only thing that probably might have still swayed me towards the ZEN was the fact that the Sony only came in 8 GB (I'm finding 16 GB is perfect for me), the FM radio - I do like having that feature as I use it at work and home on occaision to listen to football and baseball games - and lastly, just the familiarity with the Creative product line. I've owned 6 of these players in various styles, all have worked flawlessly, and all are still working and in the hands of family members.
So if Sony doubles it's size to 16 (or ever 32) GB by the time I'm ready to upgrade, and adds FM radio - we could have a contender for me to switch from Creative for the first time in years.
As for the iPod's 'lame' audio quality statement - yes, that was probably overstated. iPods audio quality is not lame, but rather just good. As noted by CNET reviewers, they are constantly amazed that given iPods status a leader in this field they just can't believe that iPod doesn't upgrade it's audio quality.
As for me, I really hate being locked into the whole iTunes thing. I actually looked at the new Nanos when I was looking to upgrade. I think the new Nanos are the best looking daps out there right now - I LOVE the look. But, again, only 8 GB, and worse, will not work with other music subscriptions. If Apple ever eases up on that restriction then I might give them a try. Honestly though, I don't see it happening. Sad.
M.
You're not locked into the iTunes Store!
by electronista - 1/4/08 9:50 AM In reply to: You're quite welcome! by methos1979Admittedly, there's no literal subscription service with iTunes, but you're not trapped into using Apple's store alone or necessarily stuck with tracks you can't bring elsewhere -- though you have to buy all your songs in iTunes Plus format if you want to go that latter route.
Amazon MP3 and eMusic only sell tracks DRM-free, and Amazon in particular even has a companion app that will send your tracks to the iTunes software. eMusic even fits the bill as a subscription service: you pay X amount to get Y number of MP3s a month (typically about 40 songs, but you can opt for more). If you're not worried about being limited to some labels, it's a solid choice if you want an iPod but want the option of backing out later.
iPod question
by methos1979 - 1/5/08 8:40 AM In reply to: You're not locked into the iTunes Store! by electronistaDoes iTunes (or anyone else out there) offer me the ability to pay a $15 a month fee and give me access to over 5 million songs on my iPod, and my two kids iPods? No. At least I couldn't find it if it exists. Someday I'm hoping to try out an iPod just to see what they truly have to offer. Just like the original Apple computers, they have set the standard and started a revolution. But if they don't hop on the subscription bandwagon soon they are going to lose market share and eventually lose out on everything, just like they did to Microsoft. You have to keep pace with the best deal. IMO, the best deal out there is the ability to pay only $15 a month and load up three computers and three mp3 players with over 5 million songs.
Cd's will quickly become a relic'd thing of the past, just like albums did years ago. You'll only have audiophile types clinging to it just like the did to vinyl. I go to these forums and listen to them complain about mp3 quality and laud CD and about "Saving the CD from extinction" - the exact same song and dance the vinyl guys did 20 years ago. As soon as the retailers stop making any decent money on CD's, they'll dedicate the floor space to something they can sell.
It's coming, and it's coming fast. If Apple isn't careful, their going to lose again. And it's the arrogance of trying to keep everything to themselves that kills them every time.
Subscriptions are overrated, quite frankly
by electronista - 1/5/08 9:19 AM In reply to: iPod question by methos1979You know why you haven't tried an iPod? Because if you switch from whatever you're using now, your 5 million songs disappear. Whoops.
Yes, if Apple had such a service, you wouldn't really lose anything -- but the very problem is that subscription music is a calculated bet. It's a wager that the company you're subscribed to won't go under, that you'll always be happy using portable music players from certain companies, and that the albums you want will always be available on that service.
Woe be to you if you discover an independent artist on another store that isn't on your subscription. Or, for that matter, woe to you if you learn that another store has the tracks you like in a higher-quality format, but without a subscription (see: iTunes Plus or Bleep.com).
CDs are on their way out, there's no question. But as long as we support subscription music, we're rewarding a distrustful DRM model and also failing to adequately support the artists we think are genuinely good. In a subscription model, the same money you spend to support a talented artist (take your pick as to who that may be) also props up sub-par artists like Paris Hilton. And trust me -- the groups you like are barely making any money on that model.
Don't buy from iTunes if you don't want to; Amazon MP3 will do nicely and actually has an app that will auto-sync purchases to iTunes. But I'd rather buy music that I know I can still hear 10 or 20 years from now.
subscriptions + purchased music
by ktreb - 1/5/08 10:05 AM In reply to: Subscriptions are overrated, quite frankly by electronistaTo me, that is the best of both worlds. I am an iPod user (owner of 6, including the iPod Touch) and I have 3 SanDisk players that I can use with my Rhapsdody To Go subscription. I own thousands of cds collected over 20+ years, the majority of which I don't listen to anymore (I've chosen 500 to rip and put on my various players). And thanks to family and friends, I have hundred of dollars in iTunes store credit. And I've already purchased nearly 1000 songs off of iTunes. I'll at least continue to buy from iTunes until my credits run out. Then, I may switch to Amazon. With all or most major labels on board and some of them opting not to go DRM-free with iTunes, Amazon is starting to become a better alternative to iTunes.
With the subscription I can discover new music and play songs and albums in their entirety without having to commit to buying them. The ones that I think are keepers will eventually be purchased (probably from iTunes). I don't feel troubled that subscription music has DRM - that's fully expected. When you go with this subscription model (as opposed to services like eMusic and AudioLunchbox - I'm former eMusic subscriber), you're merely renting your songs. You stop paying, they stop playing. No problem. Try buying millions of songs on your own, one by one or album by album. Not that you would actually want or even need to. A few thousand songs are probably enough for most people. Still, that's a lot of money. And what you're listening to now, you may not listen to 20 or 30 years down the road. Subscriptions are the best legal way for people to get a lot of music, as long as they understand that they are renting their music.
Thank you - you've made all my points!
by methos1979 - 1/5/08 1:35 PM In reply to: subscriptions + purchased music by ktrebI couldn't agree more. I DO still buy music. Like the previous poster, I have probably 1000 CD's, purchased over 20 years, much of which I don't listen to. Subscription music allows me to enjoy and discover more music than I could ever do without it, at least legally. This way the bands are getting paid through royalties from the various publishing companies. And new bands can get there stuff out there and discovered much easier. When I find a new band that I simply love, I buy their stuff so I'll have it for ever.
My point plain and simple is that iPods are not supported by subscriptions services because Apple won't let them. They want to keep all iPods chained to them. I hate that becaue I wouldn't mind trying an iPod someday. But I want to be able to use it with something other than iTunes.
Anyway, I'm sorry to the orginal poster and that this got way off thread. So this will be my last post on this thread.
M.
Don't worry!
by grarap - 1/6/08 2:52 AM In reply to: Thank you - you've made all my points! by methos1979Feel free to use my topic for other purpouses! I've certainly got all the information I need out if it.
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