Home audio & video: Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur?
Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur?
by tushar mandrekar - 10/23/07 11:57 AMI am trying to decide LCD Vs. Plasma. I was looking at 50" PZ77 from Panasonic, looking at 46" Sony V/W3000 and now Samsung. At Frys they had Blu-Ray of I Robot on all sets. In scene toward end where Will Smith is spinning around and shooting at robots coming at him, his face was far more distinct on the plasma than any of the LCDs I saw. Very washed out on the LCDs-- I couldn't see more than the eyeballs when he spins. When he stopped spinning, the facial details were clear.
Is what I've noticed motion blur or is it something else (digital process of image, delays in refresh, gray level difference. My wife is suggesting I look at only 120Hz models. I think the Samsung T4671F is only one in my price range. I'm going to go back to Frys to look at the Samsung, but I was curious if this is really motion blur or some different issue with the LCDs? I understand there are also settings that make it better or worse, so maybe can improve it. Need decide which one to buy and bring home though...
I understood that with 120Hz you avoid 3/2 pulldown. There's also some discussion in different forums that backlight continuous on vs. cycling on-off makes strong impact to percieved motion blur. Is Samsung 4671 backlight continuously on through subsequent frames or it cycles on-off? It seems to have higher contrast and better black levels which would be consistent with this type approach.
My wife's friends tell her plasmas are "bad" so I'm trying to find LCD that doesn't have this problem. I know my wife is wrong about plasma but it's easier for me to get an LCD than to try to argue with her. Pleaes help-- need find LCD without this artifact.
Yes.
by R. Proffitt
- 10/23/07 12:18 PM
In reply to: Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur? by tushar mandrekar
http://tech.msn.com/products/articlecnet.aspx?cp-documentid=4967145 noted the "response time" of plasma is somewhere about 4 mS. LCDs typically are double that so really really fast motion might get a blur but is generally accepted that fast motion tends to not be high detail except for those that have great eyesight (figther pilot jocks?)
Bob
blur
by HoosierDrag - 10/24/07 12:42 PM In reply to: Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur? by tushar mandrekari have a 46 inch samsung lcd and sit 6 feet away and blur has never been a problem. as hard as i try i don't see any.
i do see the crappy HD signal breakup squares from time-warner cable though.
PS: i also bought a cheap $70 upconverting DVD player from costco--OMG what a difference!
Went back to Frys. Still not sure what it is.
by tushar mandrekar - 10/25/07 5:05 AM In reply to: blur by HoosierDragI still see it during motion in faces. They had a demo of Ferrarri F430 being built and raced. Drivers face was blurry. I checked the XBR4 and Samsung 4671. They looked better, but wasn't completely gone. Not sure if it's with the video feed/processing or really motion blur. Tried watching with glasses vs. without in case it was my astigmatism-- no change. 4671 and XBR4 were good enough picture, I can live with what I see.
Which Costco DVD upconverter model did you buy?
Reply
by ns387241 - 10/25/07 7:22 PM In reply to: Went back to Frys. Still not sure what it is. by tushar mandrekarThat is image blur you're seeing there. It happens all the time on every LCD I have tested. If that bothers you, go for the plasma. They have smoother colour gradation, more accurate colours, no motion blur and deeper black levels.
The Panasonic TH-50PZ700U is a good choice, however I would be more partial to the Pioneer PDP-5080HD this time round ($2799 for PDP-5080HD at Best Buy), as it just exhibits better of what the Panasonic does. Either way, the plasmas will give an immeasureable amount of motion blur compared to the LCD's. There wouldn't be a piont spending that kind of money on something that isn't satisfying to look at.
Immeasurable or insignificant?
by AshQuinn1 - 10/27/07 6:25 AM In reply to: Reply by ns387241"the plasmas will give an immeasureable amount of motion blur compared to the LCD's"
An "immeasureable" amount of motion blur is like saying the picture would be "extraordinarily" blurry. Sounds like you're describing plasma screens as superior to LCD and so "insignificant" might be a better description of how much motion blur plasma screens have compared to LCDs?
~~~PAUL~~~
Paul
by ns387241 - 10/27/07 12:34 PM In reply to: Immeasurable or insignificant? by AshQuinn1I did mean immeasureable as a response time so small it cannot be measured by the most sensitive of measuring equipment, much less be visible by the eye - trained or untrained.
LCD motion blur is quite visible and was a significant factor when buying my panel displays.
As a side note
by ns387241 - 10/25/07 7:25 PM In reply to: Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur? by tushar mandrekarMy appologies, I mixed up models in my last response. The Panasonic PZ77U has an aniti-reflective chemical coating over the screen which mattes the darker scenes a bit. Best to stick with the 75 or 700 series within Panasonic - they both have screen filters without leaving a visual signature on the picture, or, of course the PDP-5080, as mentioned above (screen filter absorbs 80% of light for excellent ambient light rejection)
motion blur
by magilla414 - 11/1/07 9:08 AM In reply to: Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur? by tushar mandrekaris this the same thing i have heard called "screen door effect"? Where you kind of see the square boxes in fast motion scenes? I have seen it on plasma's, but to a lesser extent than LCD's. If it bothers me in the store, is it safe to assume that it won't be much better in my living room? Or are the conditions (HD signal, lighting, etc.) what makes it more apparent? Is it worth buying a DLP if I mostly watch sports/action?
Screen Door
by ns387241 - 11/1/07 12:38 PM In reply to: motion blur by magilla414The Screen Door effect is only the ability to see the pixel grid, typically seen with front or rear-projection fixed pixel (LCoS, LCD and DLP) televisions. If you get within a few feet of a flat panel display, it is visible as well. Realistically, this effect is uncommon in a real-world setting provided the size of the screen is fit for the distance one sits away. That being said, this is not motion blur and it is also not what you actually saw.
The square boxes in motion scenes is the fault of the video proessor. It's inability to keep up with the motion on the screen results in those squares. This has noting to do with image blur due to motion. That sounds like, from your analysis, that most LCD's you've seen have very poor video processors OR the signal to only the LCD's is very weak. I would think the former.
This being said, motion blur is the lack of detail in a sequence (blurry faces without squares, simply not hi-def-like clarity). This is what we're talking about, which is very common on LCD's. Plasmas do not have this issue, and if this concerns you, I would look into plasmas.
Grid or screen door is different.
by tushar mandrekar - 11/1/07 11:13 PM In reply to: Screen Door by ns387241I saw screen door as well on some of the TVs at Frys but that is different than blur. Blur is lack of detail. I see it less when LCD TV contrast is higher, but I'm not sure whether that is real correlation. I mainly see it in faces but not computer animated faces like the robots in I Robot which didn't show variations, only saw it in Will Smith (or white guys) at a distance (subtle variations in grey levels, with darker marks here and there). And only when the actor is distant and moving in the screen.
Not only in fast motion..
by Tuesday.Dec12.2007 - 12/18/07 12:56 AM In reply to: Blurry faces with Samsung, Sony LCD. Is this motion blur? by tushar mandrekarYes. I see it ALWAYS. What's annoying is here I am completely annoyed by it yet reviewers are saying it's not noticeable and shouldn't bother the average person.
And it's not only in fast motion - just watch the nose of any person carefully - you'll catch the blurring when he/she swivels, shakes or nods.
So far the only LCD on which I've not noticed it is the Panasonic TX-32LX700M. Too bad they don't have a 37' else I'd have gone for it.
Fastmotion...
by grc24 - 12/23/07 1:33 PM In reply to: Not only in fast motion.. by Tuesday.Dec12.2007All LCD's have some blur. Some are able to refresh at a faster rate than others, reducing the blur. The average is about 6-8ms refresh rate. The higher the number, the better refresh rate, resulting in a better, less blurry picture. Some things to reduce picture blurriness though: Your TV has picture quality features that you can tinker with to get the picture how you like it. You should turn your "Brightness" level down to AT LEAST half. Some sets also have a "Energy Save." feature as well. This should also be set to "Medium." Any feature that your set has that will bring down the brightness of the set to about half of what the default settings are will improve picture quality. Now; turn down your "Sharpness." level to about 1/3 of the maximum setting. I'd be willing to bet that yours is set WAY TOO HIGH. Most people think that the highest setting gives them a better picture. Well it's COMPLETELY opposite. Turn your "Sharpness." DOWN. These three settings alone will give you a better picture if bring them down a few notches. The other settings you can play with to get them how you like them. Also, check into a HDTV calibration DVD. These work great and can be bought from Amazon. Avia Guide To Home Theater is a good one. Very useful and user friendly.
Good Luck
grc
Refresh versus Response
by ns387241 - 12/23/07 2:10 PM In reply to: Fastmotion... by grc24There is a difference between refresh rates and response times.
A refresh rate is used to measure how often the set displays a new video frame, measured in fps (frames per second). Most teles are 60hz, whereas some LCD's are 120hz. The higher the refresh rate, the smoother the tele will look on the basis that the tele is receiving a signal recorded that way in the first place (movies, for example are at 24fps). Material not recorded at 120hz can be upsampled, but processors tend to lag and make more a mess out of the problem (with LCD's that is, plasmas don't have to worry about response times).
A Response time indicates the amount of time a liquid crystal takes to make a complete twist (rise and fall), from alotting all light through to blocking all light. This is only prevelant on LCD-based technologies (including SXRD). This is the type of blur that only LCD's can display. And this is where other technologies (such as CRT, Plasma and DLP) will pull ahaead motion-wise. The lower the response time, the quicker the tv will respond. Most LCD's are between 4-and 8ms. But CRT's DLP's and Plasmas are all at 0ms.
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