Community Newsletter: Q&A: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p
- 10/18/07 11:01 PM
Bandwidth Limit
by igorberger - 10/12/07 5:18 PM In reply to: Potential winning answers by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
This problem is related to networking bandwidth limit.
If you have 2mb ADSL modem connection do you need 1 gb network card or 10 mb network card will give you the same result?
Test it out on your computer if you doubt the answer!
Ain't no substitute for pixels
by robert.bev - 10/14/07 2:58 AM In reply to: Potential winning answers by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
With digital TV a good guide line I suppose is the more pixels the better the performance, although when I watch my sons Tv the sound has so much bass that it hurts my ears, the colour on my sisters TV is also way out.
Now my own TV is an old one but the sound and colour are just right and that is why its an old one!! LOL
seriously I guess that you have to get them home and fine tune them to your room and personal preferences as they all look and perform differently in the shop.
Regards Robert.
Buy now, buy later
by bpaskin - 10/12/07 5:29 PM In reply to: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Unlike the televisions that made no or little improvement in quality over the past 30 or so years, we have seen great advances in televisions in the past few years. Personally, I own a 44 inch 1080p LCD. There was not even a thought in my mind to go to with 720p. At some point 1080p will be used more often than not.
I cannot believe the people who say that they do not see a difference from 720p to 1080p. Yes, watching analog TV does not seem better on 720p or 1080p, but 1080p is much better when watching HD sources. Even my upscaling DVD player looks great in 1080p.
Or you could just wait until the OLED TVs come out next year!
Cheers.
Better believe it...
by Pannylover4ever - 10/12/07 9:53 PM In reply to: Buy now, buy later by bpaskinHere are two different articles scientifically explaining why people can't see the difference between 720P vs 1080P. It is mostly due to your eye physically can't see the difference unless you are less than 6.5' or 8' away on a 50" screen. If bpaskin is seeing a difference on his 44" screen he must therefore be sitting close to 3' away with a magnifying glass in one hand. Bottom line is with a normal/optimal viewing distance of 2x screen size (8.3' on 50" 7.3' on 44") you can't see the resolution difference. You can however see brightness, contrast, color etc etc... See the data here:
http://www.hdtvsolutions.com/HDTV_Viewing_Distance.htm
and here:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/1080p-and-the-acuity-of-human-vision/understanding-1080p-resolution-in-displays.html
So if you are not buying a 58" screen or larger, 1080P is mostly a moot point. For those hoping to see any 1080P channels, the doubling of the bandwidth required to go from 1080i to 1080P (1.485 Gbit/s to approx. 3 Gbit/s), will put a damper on that until you Coax cable goes to Fiber, or the Satellites in orbit and the receivers are replaced with next generation technology (besides all the Broadcast gear). Considering your SAT and Cable company's are struggling to provide you 20HD channels in 720P and 1080i, 1080P isn't coming anytime soon.
See why here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p
Save your money and get the 50" 720P, your eyes can't tell the difference, but your wallet and your wife will thank you....:)
There IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by inventivemind - 10/13/07 2:42 PM In reply to: Buy now, buy later by bpaskinOkay I don't know how I didn't ask this question myself to be honest because in my family we have had this discussion over and over and why?? Because I bought a 1080p TV and my sis bought a 720p TV and when I went to her house and (it was a Samsung 46" by the way) sat on the sofa about 5 feet from the t.v. well I mean even with the HD signal this TV was far from what you see with the 1080p- I am talking about I didn't even want to watch the tv, even baseball was fuzzy in HD it's plain crazy! My recommendation to everyone is DON"T EVER BUY A 720P TV and my question no my answer is this... The only reason the TV people ever came out with a 720p tv is so that people who don't have the money to buy the 720p tv's will still have a market but it's a way watered down HDTV if you aske me and they (the tv people again) should never have made such a tv. It's not HD!
re: There IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE
by PhooPhan - 10/14/07 9:09 PM In reply to: There IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by inventivemindYou were watching a 720p plasma and the picture was fuzzy? That's funny. There is NO WAY in the world that someone who has a 1080p then watches a 720p will see a fuzzy picture. Either the signal feeding the 720p was weak or you were hung over from the night before.
1080p vs 720p
by Mosephus - 10/12/07 5:31 PM In reply to: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
While it's true that with current content it is very difficult to discern between 720p and 1080p on 50 inch and under HD plasma screens, that does not mean this will be case with future content.
Most of the motion picture studios have mastered their features with output to pro formats at 1080p. We can only assume that future HD VOD, future HD content download, and future BluRay/HD-DVD releases will max at this resolution, and therefore this resolution will future proof you for the next 10 years or so.
While you may not notice any difference out of your HD cable box now, I would recommend you prepare for future formats at the best possible resolution if you have the budget.
I would tend towards the 1080p
by rsbruner - 10/12/07 6:03 PM In reply to: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I have read through most of the posts on this subject, and I tend to agree with many of them; however, I must throw a small twist into this. I do not know how much Yves L. is planning to spend on the TV but there are alternates to the Panasonic plasma. Sorry for digressing, but I must.
We have two "big screen" TV's a Sony KDS-50XBR1 and the Panasonic TH-50PX75U. I must report that with an OTA, the Sony 1080p display outperforms the Panasonic on every level. We play Nintendo 64, Game Cube, XBox, DVDs at 480p, VHS tapes, and the Sony just looks better.
I know many people write that the distance from the screen makes a difference. We have tested that also by watching both TV's from 15 feet away. There is no pixelation from any gaming system on the Sony, no blurring in action from DVDs on the Sony, but there is on the Panasonic. I must note also that we had a 1080p 42" Philips LCD TV for a while, and there was no pixelation on this TV either when playing video games. The colors were all very smooth.
The Panasonic 720p is a Great TV, but it does not match the clarity of the 1080p TV's we have had - the smoothness and the detail just aren't the same. I went with the 720p due to budget. On the first TV I had the money to spend on the excellent quality of the Sony. On the second TV, I won a contest and this is the TV I received - very grateful for that BTW.
If 1080p is important to Yves perhaps looking beyond Plasma and LCD should be a consideration since DLP and LCoS are still great alternatives.
1080...
by schwine1 - 10/12/07 6:15 PM In reply to: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
If you're buying a TV, and intend to keep it for at least a few years, then buy 1080p - no question about it. You won't always be able to spot the difference - but in time, you'll kick yourself if you don't.
As for 42 inch plasmas, what bugs me is that people refer to them as "720p" when they're only 1024x768. Sorry - this AIN'T 720p, and AIN'T enough rez for even below-average HD sources. Only the new Panasonic has the dots to do the job.
Broadcasters will never go to 1080p24, here's why:
by berryjooks - 10/12/07 9:42 PM In reply to: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Currently HD programming is served to us at 1080i or 720p, with the bulk of it coming in at 720p. With the exception of Blu-Ray and HD DVD players there are currently no 1080p broadcasts via any medium and there won't be in the near future. Whether you get your signal via antenna, cable or satellite the best you can expect to receive is 1080i or 720p. A 1080p TV will take a 1080i or 720p signal and upconvert it to 1080p. The up or down conversion of the signal is the biggest factor in screen lag. The conversion takes time and consequently skews your screen response time, possibly resulting in screen artifacts.
So why do I say broadcasters won't adopt 1080p in its current format, you ask?
Check this out from Wikipedia:
Due to bandwidth limitations of broadcast frequencies, the ATSC and DVB have standardized only the frame rates of 24, 25, and 30 frames per second (1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p30). Higher frame rates, such as 1080p50 and 1080p60, could only be sent over normal-bandwidth channels if a more advanced codec (such as H.264/MPEG-4 AVC) were to be used. Higher frame rates such as 1080p50 and 1080p60 are foreseen as the future broadcasting standard for production.[3]
In the United States, the ATSC is considering amending its standard to allow the incorporation of the newer codecs for optional usage like the DVB Project consortium already has done with DVB-S2.[citation needed] However, doing so is not expected to result in widespread consumer availability of broadcast 1080p programming, since most of the existing digital television sets or external digital receivers in use in the United States would still only be capable of decoding the older, less-efficient MPEG-2 codec, while the bandwidth limitations do not allow for broadcasting two simultaneous streams on the same broadcast channel (e.g. both a 1080i MPEG-2 stream alongside a 1080p MPEG-4 stream).
So, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD and 1080p TV's at the current frame rates may all be the new millenniums version of Betamax.
Now let's take it a step further. Unlike tube TV's, fixed pixel TV's like Plasma, LCD and DLP are progressive in nature. If you feed it a 1080i signal it converts the interlaced signal to progressive, and shows you 1080p. With the exception of certain plasma sets by Hitachi and Fujitsu that use ALiS technology (interlaced), all 1080i capable sets are really outputting a 1080p picture. As stated before this takes time and skews your response time, so it will give you more lines, but at a price, and speaking of price, that's where I'm going with this.
Stick with 720p for a smoother picture (EXTREMELY important if you are a sports nut like me)and lower cost. Don't buy 1080p or an HD DVD until there is a standard that both manufacturers and broadcasters agree on. If sales drop off on the 1080p sets it will force the issue and you will have actually influenced the industry. How cool is that?
Sure the broadcasters won't, but...
by kre8ive - 10/13/07 11:48 AM In reply to: Broadcasters will never go to 1080p24, here's why: by berryjooksit really depends on what the tv is going to be used for. generally when people buy larger format televisions, it's for watching movies and gaming. i'm not gonna go run out and buy a large tv, just so i can watch broadcast television, i think it would be a huge waste of money. if i'm going to buy a big tv, its going to be a home theater designed for watching cinematic quality movies and for realistic gaming. now sure the broadcasters won't send out 1080p because there is simply no infrastructure to send out the type of bandwidth required. but gaming, and movies are where its at. now if your spending thousands of dollars on a tv, whats an extra 600-700 on something like a xbox 360, or ps3. if you get the elite xbox 360, or ps3, they are both designed for 1080p gaming and movies (if you get the hd-dvd for the 360). having played halo 3 on a 1080p tv, i played around with the resolution to see if there really is a discernable difference, and there is. when the console renders the images, it makes them so they can fit on the screen properly. as you increase the resolution, the console can fit more onto the screen, so what difference does this make you ask? the images are cleaner, less jagged, and more realistic looking. starting from 480i the images of round objects look jagged, and polygonal, and even simply moving up to 480p there was signifacant improvements, and it only gets better with higher resolution. well you may not the difference in pixel count between 720p and 1080p, you will most definatly see the improvement of cleaner, crisper, more realistic images. so if your buying a tv for movies and gaming, go for the 1080p, if your buying the tv for broadcast shows go for the 720p, or even the 1080i.
Movies are where it's at???
by berryjooks - 10/13/07 4:53 PM In reply to: Sure the broadcasters won't, but... by kre8iveAlthough I agree with you that a 1080p dvd player looks better on a 1080p tv, I'm surprised that you think a good tv should only be for home theater and gaming. Although we love to watch movies, we also watch a lot of sports. Take today for example: we're watching BC play Notre Dame right now and getting ready to watch the ALCS series with the Sox and Indians next. There's a roomful of people enjoying the wide screen, hi def, surround sound experience and there's not a movie in sight.
Thanks for emphasizing my point though. If your main usage of the tv is to watch hi def movies, buy the 1080p. If your equally concerned with the quality of your NFL Sundays, stick with the 720p.
Nice... BC just won!
1080p vs 740p
by snaar - 10/12/07 11:51 PM In reply to: HDTV buying advice: 720p vs. 1080p by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
What is not mentioned, is that the signal sent is 1080i, where the i stands for interlaced. This means only half the image is transmitted for each frame and it relies on your eye to integrate the two halves. A modern 1080p set will assemble it and present it to you in one continuous image of 1080 vertical lines. Additionally if the set refreshes the image at 120 hertz (120 times per second) the advantages become apparent.
1080i vs 1080P vs 720P...
by Pannylover4ever - 10/13/07 2:02 PM In reply to: 1080p vs 740p by snaarThere seems to be somewhat of a confusion about the resolutions here.
1080i when de-interlaced will be 30 fps, 720P is 60 fps. When odd and even frames are de-interlaced, you add artifacts to the picture. The odd and even frames are usually not the same picture when they are combined since there is usually motion difference between the odd and even frames.
Upping the refresh rate to 120Hz would unfortunately not help since you would simply be showing each frame 4 times using Progressive and twice if you took 1080i/60 and converted it to 1080i/120.
In any action movie, sports, video games etc, the motion is noticeably
smoother in 720P/1080P but the source has to be 720P/1080P due to the increased frame rate at 60fps. Taking 30fps source and converting it to 60fps just means you are showing each frame twice.
On related notes, any material that is a higher resolution can usually be down-converted smoothly since you are discarding information present. So a 1080P movie will look great on 720P since you are dropping information. Taking 720P material and up-converting it to 1080P will look significantly worse since you are using algorithms to add information (pixels) into the frame that don't exist (as can be seen on your computer when you convert 1MP image to 4MP).
Why is this relevant? All plasma and LCD screens have only one native resolution. If you buy a 1080P native screen and use it mostly to watch Cable/SAT in 480i/720P/1080i, your screen is in constant up-conversion mode, making the material loose sharpness compared to a native 720P screen.
This is because your HD material would be down converted from 1080i or shown native on the 720P screen. The 480i up-conversion from SD won't look as bad on 720P as the scaled image is closer to the 720P resolution than 1080P.
Another factor is that 1080P screens are usually much darker than 720P screens (5000:1 vs 10000:1 contrast ratio), and the price is also about double.
So the bottom line is, there are always trade offs between the different screens. One resolution is never universally better than the other unless all the material is in the native resolution.
Its a matter of choosing the pro's and con's that come with each one.
As of right now, it appears to me that unless your are going 58" or above, the price and trade-offs of 1080P are not worth double the price at the present and may not be for quite some time.
Re: 1080i vs 1080p
by remmeler - 10/13/07 7:13 PM In reply to: 1080i vs 1080P vs 720P... by Pannylover4everThis is a question regarding the comment that I am repeating below:
"1080i when de-interlaced will be 30 fps, 720P is 60 fps. When odd and even frames are de-interlaced, you add artifacts to the picture. The odd and even frames are usually not the same picture when they are combined since there is usually motion difference between the odd and even frames."
Your not saying that a 720p is better than a 1080 are you?
If I assume that your facts above are true, and broadcast sources will be 1080i for a long time in the future, which I think is true, then I will be getting the 1080i signal and de-interlacing the signal from any source other than a HD-DVD, so for the the life of the TV set, a de-interlaced 1080i set with a "line doubler" would present the same picture as a 1080p because the source is 1080i. A person with a 1080i set and no intention of purchasing a HD-DVD does not need to upgrade. But a 720p would take that 1080i picture and downgrade it to 720 and then match the second set at the downgraded 720 and actually present it as 720i with a line doubler, so it couldn't be better because the source is not 720p.
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