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Community Newsletter: Q&A: How to back up and restore my PC to the exact same condition it was...
- 8/30/07 3:39 PM
I like this one
by vattan2005 - 9/14/07 12:54 PM In reply to: QOTW081707 Bus Answer by busThe whole subject matter has been boiled down to the following sentences:
...but keep in mind that you will need to re-clone the drive after every software update and that is where the “ you can't, why not” part comes in and the “not too clear”. The cost and time consumption factors make any holistic push button restore backup system for the most part *mythical*. What I have presented here is a “Best Fit Approach”, not 100% solution.
Eloquently said. I think I will back up my data and reinstall the OS and applications. Because, one may not be able to tell what updates have been installed and what not. Restoring would be a crap shoot. It's two of one or one of two. The end result in effort expended and time spent would end up being the same by simply not bothering with the "push button restore" system.
(NT) LOL, Thank you. I was not sure anybody read that zinger.
by bus - 9/14/07 3:15 PM In reply to: I like this one by vattan2005I can do just that...
by kjeeri - 8/22/07 1:01 PM In reply to: How to back up and restore my PC to the exact same condition it was... by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I have one a few years old external Maxtor One-Touch hard drive. With the backup software that came with it, I can do a complete backup plus a boot-CD. The computer will boot from the CD and put the whole backed-up system back on a new hard drive.
Kjell Eriksson, Uppsala, Sweden
External Maxtor One-Touch hard drive
by TDanaher - 8/23/07 12:36 PM In reply to: I can do just that... by kjeeriDid you ever restore? All the manufacturers say restoring is so very easy, but when you need to actually do it, you find out the truth... that restoring doesn't work as they say.
Believe me, I've suffered two (2) separate failures when restoring. Once was with Windows built-in backup/restore application!
Potential winning answers.
by Lee Koo (ADMIN) - 8/24/07 3:58 PM
In reply to: How to back up and restore my PC to the exact same condition it was... by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Here are the selected submissions grouped in one post. Read through them and place your votes in the newsletter poll.
Answer:
How to backup ... AND RESTORE .... your computer
Re: "I have never seen an article that tells me how to do what I would like to do most, and that is to restore my computer to the exact same condition it was in before my hard-drive went belly-up!"
It's actually easy, but you have to purchase some software, I'm not aware of a GOOD freeware program that does this.
What you do is make an "image" backup of each partition / drive. When an "image" backup is restored, that drive / partition is exactly like it was before. So if you have 3 partitions on your hard drive, you would make an "image" backup of (for example) C:, D: and E: (most commonly as 3 separate backups). When the drive dies (or when you simply have a bad virus attack), you restore the "partitions" from their images and you are back up fairly quickly (your concern about "I definitely do not want to have to reinstall Windows, download all of the "patches," get all the drivers, etc., etc." was well founded).
Ok, how do you do this, you ask? There are three widely respected programs that do this. They are Symantec Ghost, Acronis True Image and PowerQuest DriveImage (Symantec bought PowerQuest, much of it's "guts" went into the latest versions of Ghost, and Drive Image is no longer being sold, but many copies of it are still out there).
The "image" backup is in the form of one big (HUGE, possibly) file. Since you are backing up an entire partition, the backup file might be tens, possibly even hundreds of gigabytes. It can be written to any device, or all 3 programs can be break it up into pieces of a user-specified size. It can also be written to optical media, either directly (as it is made, directly by the Image program) or as a subsequent operation after (if desired) it is first written to some disk device. On average, the size of the image file (or all of the pieces of the image file if you have it broken up) is about half of the size of the partition being backed up. The one caveat is that the image file cannot be written to the partition being backed up .... if you want it written to a hard drive, it has to be either to another drive or at least another partition of the drive. If a drive has multiple partitions, each should be imaged separately (some versions of some of the programs will backup an entire hard drive (multiple partitions) as a single "backup job").
To restore, say your hard drive failed and you have a new (and very blank) drive. Physically install the new drive, boot from either the image program CD (the one you bought) or bootable media it made (floppies or a CD ... some versions of some of the programs can make the backup image bootable if it's written to optical media), and it will boot up a non-Windows "restore environment" that is able to restore the backup of the old drive or partition to the new drive. It will take care of both creating the partition and restoring it's contents.
I mentioned that you had to buy some software, but I should add that I think Vista Ultimate (and perhaps Business) has a built-in image backup utility as well. But for XP, and the Home versions of Business, you need a 3rd party product.
Regards,
Barry Watzman
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=260644&messageID=2565133#2565133
Submitted by: Watzman
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Answer:
Backup Backup Backup
That is a great question and I will be very interested in reading all the suggestions from members on this one. Backing up ones computer is fast becoming one of my biggest concerns. I am seeing more hard drive failures then ever before and from computers that are often only 3-5 years old. The average computer user is filling their computers with all kinds of irreplaceable photos, videos and music and often thinking that their hard drive is invincible and will last forever. Normally it is hard enough just to get computer users to take seriously the importance of backing up their data so I rarely ever get to discussing backing up the entire computer with all of its programs and setting. Even though it can be a real pain and definitely time consuming to reinstall Windows and all of your programs, the primary concern is usually ( and should be) for preserving documents, financial data, photos, videos, music, emails and address books.
THE GOAL
The goal is to be able to backup up your computer in such a way that if something goes wrong you can easily recover everything back to the way you had it without having to reinstall Windows, reinstall all your programs and configure all your personal settings from scratch.
THE OVERALL PLAN
If you have very little data and only a few programs you may be able to create a full backup image of your hard drive every day. However, if you have a huge hard drive crammed with tons of programs, games, photos and music, it would simply take too long to perform a full back up every day.
The overall plan is comprised of 2 steps: The first Step is to make one full backup of your entire computer just when you have it setup and running just the way you want it and then you perform additional full backups only whenever you make a major change such as installing new software or hardware. Step 2 is keeping a regular daily or weekly backup of all your personal data. When you need to restore your computer you simply recover Windows and all of the programs and settings from your most recent full backup and then you add in the backup of your most recent data which would include things such current documents, photos and emails.
HOW TO DO IT
BACKING UPYOU DATA - There are many ways to back up just your data. It could be as easy as simply copying (dragging) the contents of MY DOCUMENTS to an external USB hard drive or as sophisticated as setting up dedicated software to backup and maintain multiple copies of your data automatically to a network drive each night. Here are just a few of the possible ways to backup your data:
1. COPY DATA – The easiest method of backing up your data is to simply copy it to another location. This could be to a Floppy Disk, CD, DVD, USB flash drive, USB Hard Drive, Zip Drive or even a drive on another computer on your network (See Storage Media Below).
2. BACKUP SOFTWARE – There are many programs available that will allow you to setup plans and schedules to backup your data to a variety of types of storage media. One of my favorites is a Free Program called Cobian Backup. There are other paid versions such as Retrospect or NTI Backup Now. Many of the USB drives come with their own backup software to make it an all-in-one solution. Some even have a single button on the drive that once the software is setup, you simply push the button and it backs up everything that you have selected.
3. ON-LINE BACKUP – This is one of my new favorite methods of backing up data. Many companies are offering ways to backup data online. Even software providers such as Intuit (Quicken/Quickbooks) offer online methods to backup your financial data every night to their servers. Online backup may or may not make sense for you depending on the amount of data that you have as well as how much new data you create on a daily basis. I just recently started using Carbonite.com as a secondary backup to my normal backup plan for some of my most critical data. How can you go wrong for $49 per year for an unlimited amount of data.
BACKUP NOTES: I have to make a few comments about setting up your backups only because I have run into so many individual and corporate customers that where faithfully backing up every day for years only to find out that they either the backups were all bad or they were backing up the wrong data. Double check you backups to make sure they are correct and contain the information that you really need when things go wrong.
STORAGE MEDIA
Whether you are just copying or using backup software, you need a place to actually put your data. You could just place a copy into another folder on your computer, but if your hard drive failed or your computer was stolen or lost in a fire you would loose both your original and your backup. So it is best to keep your backups separated from your originals. Before you can decide on what media you will backup to, you need to determine how much data you actually have. To determine the size of your data, Right Click and select properties on each folder you wish to backup.
1. FLOPPY DISKS – 1.44 megabytes - Even though most new computers do not come with Floppy Disk drives anymore, you can still order one or install one yourself. The problem is that a floppy disk just does not hold enough data to be worth the effort. To put this into perspective a floppy disk is not even large enough to hold a single photograph from today’s high resolution digital cameras.
2. ZIP DRIVES – 100-250 megabytes – Although they are losing popularity, Zip drives can still hold plenty of documents or financial data but are just too small for backing up photos and music.
3. CD-R /RW – 650-700 megabytes – CD’s can hold a fair amount of data but could still be too small for huge numbers of photos or music files.
4. USB FLASH DRIVES – Sometimes called thumb drives, these can be purchased in sizes typically from as small as 8 megabytes to over 4 gigabytes. (The maximum size changes all the time)
5. DVD-R/RW – 4.7-8.4 gigabytes – DVD’s can hold a lot of data and would normally be adequate for data storage for most users. However, if your computer has tons of photos, downloaded music and Video, than you may need something bigger.
6. ADDITIONAL INTERNAL HARD DRIVES – 40-500gigabyes - Many Desktop computers and a few laptops can be fitted with one or more additional hard drives. In some cases these drives can be configured as mirrored drives, meaning that the second drive will always contain an exact copy of the first drive. Even if mirroring is not an option, you can use the additional drive for a place to backup your data.
7. USB HARD DRIVES – 40-500gigabytes - USB Hard Drives come in just about any size up to about 500gigabytes. Again this maximum changes all the time. If you need more space you can always add more than one.
8. NETWORK DRIVES – 40-1.0 terabyte - Also known as Network Attached Storage, these hard drives connect directly to your network and can then be used by every computer in your house or office. Some are smart drives and can contain multiple mirrored drives or even mimic small servers. One of my favorite units is Seagate’s Mirra Drive. This unit connects to your network and backs up your data from every computer in your house in real time. (Meaning that it backs up files whenever you make a change instead of waiting until a specific time of day to do a backup). If you want, you can even log in from anywhere in the world to retrieve your files.
9. FILE SERVER – You could also have a dedicated computer that is set up as a file server or just an old computer with a shared hard drive. This can be a great way to recycle an older computer. Drop a few new hard drives and maybe even install free Linux software and make yourself a nice little home file server.
BACKING UP WINDOWS, PROGRAMS AND SETTINGS
Backing up just your data is fairly easy when compared to trying to get a backup of Windows itself with all your programs and personal settings. The problem is mainly that you can not backup files that are open and in use at the time and since Windows is running and constantly updating and changing files it is very difficult to get a full backup at any given moment in time. The best way to obtain a full backup is to grab an image of your hard drive. Programs such as Norton Ghost and Acronis True Image offer methods to image your drive. The problem is that you do not know if the image file is any good until you actually need it. In my experience many of these images end up not working for one reason or another. My recommendation, now that hard drives are so inexpensive, is to use one of these programs and use the option to clone or copy your drive to 2nd hard drive. Then you can install that drive into your computer to test your backup. Once you know that your cloned drive is good, simply store it in a safe place until needed. Now, when your hard drive fails, simply swap drives and restore your recent personal data from your regular daily data backups and you are back in business.
The down side to this plan is that the cloned hard drive will only boot in your original computer or the exact same model. So if your computer fails or gets stolen, you will be back to being able to only use your data backups. But that is better than nothing.
There are also some backup programs such as Norton Save & Restore that will create a series of recovery CD’s or DVD’s for your computer. These can have the very same potential problems as imaging to another hard drive. HP and Compaq computers built after 2003 come with their own software to create a recovery set of disks.
When it really comes down to it, having to reinstall Windows and all of your programs could be a blessing. Many avid computer users will wipe their computers clean, reformat their drive and reinstall everything from scratch every year or two just to keep things working smoothly. So the most important thing is to have backups of your data and be able to put you hands on all of your original installation CD’s.
ONE OTHER NOTE ON BACKING UP
Regardless of how or what method of backing up you are using. If your computer is in poor condition such as infected with viruses and spyware, hard drive errors and heavily fragmented, your odds of getting a good backup decreases. Your chances of a favorable outcome will improve if you first:
1. Scan for Viruses and Spyware.
2. Scan your drive for errors using Chkdsk or Scandisk.
3. Run disk defragementer on the drive you want to backup.
4. Shut down and reboot your computer before running a backup.
5. Test your backup after it is complete.
Dana
Wayland Computer
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=260644&messageID=2569464#2569464
Submitted by waytron
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Answer:
QOTW081707 Bus Answer
A few ways to do this;
1. RAID1, mirrored drives (can be hard to setup and keep working)
2. Tape (pricey and slow)
3. ISO image onto DVD (most computers come able to do this but the media may fail)
4. Drive Cloning of 2 hard-drives (commercially available kits)
Everyone of these methods has draw backs and unknowns. Because the object here is not to have to reload the OS, to have “everything back the way it was”, and the focus of the topic is hard-drive failure that leaves RIAD1 and “Drive Cloning” as the options to review. Both methods require 2 hard-drives, installation skills, and are testable with low risk of data loss. Drive Cloning is just a copy of your drive onto a second hard-drive. That means you would have 2 hard-drives with the same data in the same layout on both drives and you could take out the hard-drive that’s in the computer and swap it with the copied hard-drive making “everything back the way it was” (to restore it to the state it was in at the last backup). RAID1or mirrored drives, is just 2 drives running together with an interface that mirrors the data to both hard-drives. If a RAID hard-drive fails you could then use the remaining hard-drive making “everything back the way it was”(to restore it to the state it was just before the one RAID hard-drive failed) except there would be only one drive until you replaced the defective one and then restored the RAID.
Which method is the best fit for you is a judgment call. Personal experience leads me to go with “Drive Cloning” because I see hard-drive failure (end of life) as a given. The RAID system uses 2 identical hard-drives. Hard-drives that are of good quality tend to have the same usable life. If one drive fails the other is soon to follow. So if a hard-drive fails, the RAID must be rebuilt quickly and with my tendency to procrastinate I fear the other drive would also fail before I did anything. Therefore I would go with the “Drive Cloning” approach. Which is well documented as a CNET Weekend Project titled “How to punch up your Portable”, sub title “Upgrade Your Hard drive”. Go here
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11381_7-5506183-3.html?tag=nav .
There is an info link on the page to Apricorn, a company that makes what they call hard-drive upgrade kits. Don’t worry just because the Weekend Project is for portables such as a laptop, Apricorn sells kits that will work with desktops too but you may find you need to buy the hard-drive yourself. Don’t like Apricorn’s products, try software like Norton Ghost or Acornis True Image, go here and see what cable I have used
http://reviews.cnet.com/storage-adapters/sabrent-usb-2535-storage/4864-3014_7-32107412.html?ctype=msgid&messageSiteID=7&messageID=2315216&cval=2315216&tag=uolst .
After you view the info from the Weekend Project titled “How to punch up your Portable”, I recommend that you read the CNET Community Newsletter Archive “Getting serious about backing up your data, October 13, 2006" (at the minimum read the winning answer and the honorable mentions). Go here
http://reviews.cnet.com/4002-7600_7-6651881.html .
The advice there will help supplement the Drive Cloning process into a complete recovery system.
Combining the RAID and Drive Cloning process would be more complete although due to cost you might as well have 2 computers and sync them. That’s a little over kill but it does cover the bases. The biggest pitfall of other backup systems is, do they work? You never know until you have a crash and then use them. That’s a little late to discover if they work. With the RAID and Drive Cloning processes you can test before a crash by doing some hard-drive swapping. Keep in mind that for the most part any backup system is just an insurance policy you hope you never have to use. Therefore I would go with just the “Drive Cloning” approach to keep cost and hassle down. Cautions, you still need to keep and make backups of your working files (pictures, documents, and home movies).
Another additional step, with a second drive as your fail safe backup, you could get and test one of those external USB hard drive backup system. Find one with a software package that does the whole system. Go here to see one I have worked with
http://reviews.cnet.com/hard-drives/iomega-external-black-series/4864-3186_7-31120028.html?ctype=msgid&messageSiteID=7&messageID=2128769&cval=2128769&tag=uolst .
Once you feel you have it working test it by erasing some test files and then do a restore. If that works you can take it a step further and erase a key file or if you are brave the whole drive and then do the restore again. If it works you can set the USB hard drive backup system to perform backups automatically. The USB hard drive backup system keeps your current work files backed up and you would keep the cloned hard-drive in a safe place ready to be installed should the computer’s hard-drive fail.
More thoughts.
Computers don’t come with these systems as a normal package because most computers are obsolete before the components fail. With the current trend towards larger and larger hard-drives computer users may see more early hard-drive failures which may lead to computers coming packaged with aggressive dual backup systems factory direct. Until that happens users need to patch together and understand their own backup plan and systems.
In response to “not too clear on whether you can even do it, and if you can't, why not?”. Cloning of a drive’s data and system software is really a form of coping software. Cloning of software is a gray area due to pirating issues. The software industry has the view “If cloning was easy who would ever buy another piece of software when it can just be copied”. Because of this view software programs come with built in defense systems to deter pirating. These defenses may also cause problems for disk cloning, backup systems, and some types of programs such as anti-virus and game software. I found that the anti-virus programs I use never seem to get past a conventional backup restore operation. After the restore, the computer and its system software work but the anti-virus program always seems to get damaged. A reinstall of the anti-virus program fixes this. I believe you will find that disk cloning will avoid this problem but keep in mind that you will need to re-clone the drive after every software update and that is where the “ you can't, why not” part comes in and the “not too clear”. The cost and time consumption factors make any holistic push button restore backup system for the most part *mythical*. What I have presented here is a “Best Fit Approach”, not 100% solution.
Final pondering on the search for *A Holistic Push Button Restore Backup System*.
As users store more and more of their stuff in magnetic binary code data storage devices, the storage device will be viewed as so much more important than the computer/device used to access it. This is the trend that now is a key process being built into operating systems. This is the era of the mass data storage device which is being accompanied by the “Holistic Push Button Restore Backup System” era. Products like HP’s MediaSmart Server and Data Robotic’s Drobo are just some of the industries’ offerings to the call.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=260644&messageID=2568169#2568169
Submitted by bus
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Answer:
All Roads Lead to Rome...
Bill,
There are a LOT of options for doing this these days. Some of them are cheaper than others. Some are better than others.
Either way you look at it, to do a true, full backup in this day and age, you'll probably need a hard drive equal in size to the one that's currently in your computer. Forget tapes, floppies, CDs and DVDs. None of them are a.) fast enough nor b.) large enough to capture all but the smallest fraction of most modern hard drives. Not to mention, using any of these methods are just no longer up to the task.
Ergo, your best bet would be another hard drive. Fortunately, hard drives are dirt cheap. So then, the big $64,000 question here is how it needs to be hooked up. That would depend on your current configuration, what kinds of drives you've got and what ports are available on the motherboard. You'll need to purchase and install the drive in the same way the current one happens to be installed.
Once you've got the spare drive installed, boot into Windows and let Windows recognize the new device. Once that's done we can go about making use of the new drive.
Now then.. How to do the backup/restore? There are a few options that are currently available in this arena. These would be:
1.) a RAID array
2.) Partition cloning software
3.) Traditional backup software
Each has it's strength's and weaknesses. Such as: A RAID array keeps a real time copy of your C: drive but it adds extra overhead. On the down side, a RAID array is slow as the controller has to write the data to two destinations and make sure that both copies are in sync.
Partition cloning software such as Norton Ghost or Paragon Hard Drive Manager allow you to make a duplicate of your existing partition but once you've made the copy, changes aren't automatically added. Copied drives can be plugged into the original's place and with minimal fuss, be brought up to full running condition in short order. Just unplug the old dead drive and plug the new one in it's place, boot and you should be good to go.
Traditional backup software - meaning ANYTHING besides the crap that's rolled up into Windows - such as Veritas - have options to back stuff up securely, but you would have to run the restore option to retrieve the data. You can also create the archive with a password to protect the data. Of course, this does you NO good if you forget said password. The downside to this method is you have to schedule the job, preferably at a time when the computer's not busy - like 3:00am. It's quite useless, however, when it's shut off at the appointed time.
Under "ideal" conditions, your backup drive would need to be pulled out of the machine and stored somewhere else. Namely somewhere that if your computer's location was to be hit by fire, an act of god or some other disaster, the backup wouldn't be in the same location and would be safe, ready to be popped into the new computer, with the data intact. But let's be honest... MOST people I know who say they want to do backups are lazy slugs when it comes to implementing this and never do. I had one client who had a tape in his backup drive but he never bothered checking to see if the backups were ever done, nor did he ever swap the tapes out (I made sure to get him hooked up with a full set of 12 tapes just so he could swap it out each day and swap the set out with a couple of spares). So much for trusting IT chores to non-IT people... But I digress.
My two cents worth on this: I prefer the drive partition cloning software. You install the spare drive, clone it and simply unplug it. this means the drive is in place, ready to go with a simple cable swap. With the drive unplugged, you get three benefits.
1.) You don't run the risk of saving files to the backup drive and
2.) With it not connected to anything, it can't be infected or infested with spyware, crapware, malware or what not. Of course, it would be smart to do a full and complete virus and spyware check BEFORE making the backup to insure it's clean.
3.) Since the drive isn't plugged in, it's not running all the time, nor should it be wearing out. It should be as good as new.
Of course, the one big downside to this method - updates aren't included. Nor would any new software or data files. So you would have to repeat the cloning process say - once a month before you've done your Patch Tuesday updates - just in case an update does something nasty to your system.
Now you might be wondering why I didn't suggest using an external drive. The answer would be simple. Yes, it can be done, but there are a number of negatives.
1.) It's SLOW compared to native IDE/ATA 133 or SATA 150 or 300 speeds. Cloning an 80 GB drive using an internal hard drive takes about 30 minutes from start to finish.
2.) If you were to use the drive in the enclosure, you'd have to take it apart and remove it and then install the drive in the main case.
3.) You would have to swap the bad drive out with a new one and then restore it which can be fairly slow.
An option to speed things up...
Removable drive cages. While they're not the most fashionable bits of technology, they DO simplify connecting and disconnecting the backup drive. If you buy a pair, you can put your primary drive in one while you put the backup drive in the other. Should the primary fail, you can simply shut down the computer, pull the bad drive out and insert the backup into the primary's slot and be on your way.
One last thing...
Windows Home Server (when it becomes available in the coming months) will have some VERY powerful real-time backup software built into it. Whenever a file changes, it gets automatically backed up to the server. If you need to restore a file you accidentally deleted it, it's made easy. If you've got multiple PCs, it keeps track of them all using a very cool space saving system where duplicates of a given file are merely backed up once and only once which makes things more compact.
The downside to this - it's not quite available yet. It will be soon. It also requires a home network, and at least one PC. On the bright side - it doesn't require a keyboard, mouse or monitor. It does require some basic home networking - much of which, you may already have. If memory serves me, it also has the capability to boot with a blank hard drive via a CD so you can restore the partition directly from the server.
It's some VERY cool technology that's on the horizon. From what I've read, the software's been released to manufacturing - and HP and a number of other vendors have already announced they will be making WHS boxes they will be selling this Fall.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=260644&messageID=2565413#2565413
Submitted by Wolfie2k5
Sorry to see that you missed the obvious solutions
by yasinghMD - 8/24/07 10:55 PM In reply to: Potential winning answers. by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
The "potential winning answers" are detailed and they list every option out there (some totally useless) but they did not provide the simple and good solution that everyone should follow.
The readers have a right to know the following:
1. Now that external drives are cheap, using a tape or zip drive etc. do not make any sense. Raid array or second internal drive is fine as long as you will remember that, with multiple internal drives, drive letters may be different when running a restore program.
2. Any backup made with windows or any OS running cannot be trusted. Otherwise, you will learn this the hard way. Use a program that runs without windows, i.e., from a CD (Acronis) or, it runs after the computer reboots (Ghost) without running the windows.
3. There is no reason to keep the entire hard drive as one big partition. Divide it to your benefit and then make an image of the boot partition only.
4. There is no need to image the partitions other than boot partition. Other partitions can be simply copied to an external or internal drive.
5. The boot partitions do not have to be larger than 30GB. Most Boot drives (this is mostly C in single OS systems) use only about 8GB. An image of 8GB is approximately 4GB and it can be copied to a DVD.
6. Be sure to NTFS format the partition used for image otherwise you may get an error because of the large file size.
Cloning: The only real answer
by one2three - 8/25/07 2:05 AM In reply to: Sorry to see that you missed the obvious solutions by yasinghMDI like the idea of a rationalised answer to this question, cutting out all the "possible but redundant" alternatives from the "everything and the kitchen sink" answers. Thanks.
I've checked out Ghost but Norton's site is awful. There is only the opportunity to buy, no description and it's not included in the comparison tables so it's not possible to check out the features!! Maybe it's being discontinued and the field given over to MS. Acronis appears much more user friendly. Any more out there??
But what about the partitioning advice? If the partitions aren't already setup then this too is redundant advice no?
I didn't actually know that avoiding the pain of getting a new machines was possible! I've been putting of a new purchase for exactly that reason. Getting my existing one up and running took an impossible amount of time. I used some weird cable thingy to move stuff from my old system to this one but mostly I just suffered! The idea of getting a new machine, and keeping the machine as the only variable in the new setup is a truly wonderful prospect!! Or am I missing something?
It seems to me, unless I am missing something, that cloning software is the ONLY realistic option. It should be quick simple and cheap as far as I can see. The other "alternatives" seem unnecessarily complicated, lengthy and expensive by comparison.
The hardware used for the cloning seems to be a choice between DVDs (optical storage!) or a external/removable hard drive. If I'd done my last install with separate partitions for data and programmes then I'd of course just go for the DVD option (one DVD! That WOULD be irresistable!). That MUST be the winning "answer". As I haven't done that 
then I have two choices: 1. live with it or 2. back-up/partition my drive/reinstall windows (nightmare to the power of ten!)/restore the data.
Either way the choices seem v.v.v. limited: Acronis v. Ghost to do the work of cloning (any more? surely the software shouldn't have to be too complex to achieve what's needed?). And the clone can then apparently be rebooted/reinstalled/restored/overwritten to a "new" drive C:, yes?
Presumably with either software package I would be able to choose between using a secondary external/removable hard drive for the clone or using multiple DVD's?
So, does this whole cloning idea provide a way around the Vista nightmare???? Can I now buy a new laptop without having to suffer all the wonderful "feature benefits" of a whole new operating system?!? Can I just create a clone of my existing setup, buy a new machine and continue as normal without being strong-armed into b*******g around with Vista??!!??
Imaging of boot partition, not cloning - is the answer
by yasinghMD - 8/25/07 9:57 AM In reply to: Cloning: The only real answer by one2threeYou can copy an image any old computer to a new computer but it would be incompatible because of hardware differences.
I have successfully (and blissfully) copied the image of C drive on identical five Dell computers for my office, spending only about 30 minutes each versus an entire day to set up each computer individually. But, image from a different computer will not work unless you wanted to struggle with reinstalling drivers, if the system boots up at all. You could try it but only if you know what you are doing. I would not recommend it.
I have tried migration programs and cables in the past. In my opinion, they will mess up your system as they migrate only the data and settings, and will also migrate the mistakes that you may have made. Best option is to configure a new computer anew. Clean up the mess that it came with. Then copy your files and favorites from the old computer. Then create an image of C after you are satisfied with the set up, but BEFORE you have messed it up.
We cannot teach everything here. I am no expert and I do not want to repeat everything I have already posted in several places on cnet. I am posting again (hopefully for the last time on this topic) because I want the others to avoid the pain that I have experienced reinstalling the entire systems.
The solution I have given is for the folks with one hard drive since this is the case with most households. The aim here is to be able to restore the boot partition, sector by sector, exactly the way it was. Many options discussed by others here do not do so.
Partitioning the drive is an essential step to preserving your sanity. Kindly read my prior messages. Everyone should know by now not to put data on the C drive and to disable windows monitoring and restoring of other partitions and external drives.
Internet backup, floppies, USB key, Zip drive, tape etc., should not be used to back up an image of your hard disk. My preferred media are, internal drive, external drive, and DVD, in that order. I keep a copy of the image on all of these.
Programs like Acronis do not image the empty space. I am sure that other imaging software may do the same but I have not tried them. Usually, an image of the factory set up of both C and D partitions will fit on one DVD. You should create it and put it, away, in a safe place before making any changes.
Both Acronis and Ghost will clone the entire drive but, why. Why would you want to do so except to preserve the factory set up which, hopefully, you will never need to revert to?
Cloning is useful in setting up multiple computers (as I did above) but only for the first time. Cloning becomes useless after you have already put some data on that drive. You do not want to overwrite it in the future, do you?
There are many programs that can backup these partitions regularly and incrementally. Myself, I do not use them. I simply copy the data periodically to an external drive.
HDD failure, a clone drive can be put back in the computer
by bus - 8/25/07 12:43 PM In reply to: Imaging of boot partition, not cloning - is the answer by yasinghMDand you can get back to work. You don't need go buy a new drive, you already have it with the OS and system files installed. Just install the clone drive and the computer works again. Now you have a working computer and then you use your image file to put back your work files into the "My Document" folder. That puts “everything back the way it was” (to restore it to the state it was in at the last backup).
True, it may not be up to date but the factory set up should at least get the user a working computer. Re-clone once you have it the way you want it. Next time your up even faster.
Cloning the disk versus image of boot partition - and data
by yasinghMD - 8/26/07 8:21 AM In reply to: HDD failure, a clone drive can be put back in the computer by busWe need to understand differences between cloning and imaging.
Cloning the entire drive takes longer and it ties up another hard disk. It is useful, but only to replace the drive as it was, in case of disk failure. Cloning is a good choice if you do not want to (or know how to) manipulate the location of files and partitions, and you just want to revert to the original hard drive. Thus, cloning is a rigid solution.
Image, on the other hand, takes only a small portion of the disk space. You can periodically make an image of the boot partition. You have a choice of reverting to an updated set up. Image of the boot partition also enables you to revert your system to ‘exactly the way it was’ but in less time and without overwriting your data, because you are restoring only the boot partition.
It takes only about 10 minutes to back up or to restore a 15GB boot partition. Multiple images can be (and should be) saved, in various locations, on an external dive or a DVD. In case of a disk failure, the image is just as useful as clone, except that you will need to create the partitions manually. You can also restore an image of each partition individually.
If the goal is to preserve exactly the way the system was at any time during the life of your computer then, image provides flexibility and freedom without overwriting the data in the other partitions when you restore that image. If you want to make your entire hard disk exactly the way it was in the past then, cloning is the right choice.
Data is an entirely different issue. Restoring the data or copying the software files does not restore the system to exactly how it was before. Neither cloning the hard drive, nor imaging of any partition will preserve the data beyond the time of its creation. Data should be regularly backed up, independent of the system back up. Data can be backed up on line or to any other media. No one is disputing the choices where to back up the data.
I hope this is clear now.
much clearer now
by bus - 8/26/07 12:07 PM In reply to: Cloning the disk versus image of boot partition - and data by yasinghMDI still don't see how that image file will replace the dead hard drive. Don't you still have to put in a new hard drive in?
The last time I didn't clone a drive there by not making a backup drive, I had to order a new one. The OEM drive was no longer available, so I had to call tech and sales support to find a replacement. That took 1 day and then 3 days to get it shipped. During those 4 days, the client wanted and needed to get back to work. They worked through the night. They bought another computer and then hacked their backup files(Image file?) and restored their data. When I called to return their computer they told me their tale. They were glad I had advised them to get and use an external USB backup drive system and as a thankyou they gave me the computer I was trying to return to them. I still would have preferred a pat on the back to that computer. If I had made a clone drive for their computer I could of had them back in business in maybe an hour not days.
Backup Backup Backup
by waytron - 8/24/07 6:24 AM In reply to: How to back up and restore my PC to the exact same condition it was... by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
That is a great question and I will be very interested in reading all the suggestions from members on this one. Backing up ones computer is fast becoming one of my biggest concerns. I am seeing more hard drive failures then ever before and from computers that are often only 3-5 years old. The average computer user is filling their computers with all kinds of irreplaceable photos, videos and music and often thinking that their hard drive is invincible and will last forever. Normally it is hard enough just to get computer users to take seriously the importance of backing up their data so I rarely ever get to discussing backing up the entire computer with all of its programs and setting. Even though it can be a real pain and definitely time consuming to reinstall Windows and all of your programs, the primary concern is usually ( and should be) for preserving documents, financial data, photos, videos, music, emails and address books.
THE GOAL
The goal is to be able to backup up your computer in such a way that if something goes wrong you can easily recover everything back to the way you had it without having to reinstall Windows, reinstall all your programs and configure all your personal settings from scratch.
THE OVERALL PLAN
If you have very little data and only a few programs you may be able to create a full backup image of your hard drive every day. However, if you have a huge hard drive crammed with tons of programs, games, photos and music, it would simply take too long to perform a full back up every day.
The overall plan is comprised of 2 steps: The first Step is to make one full backup of your entire computer just when you have it setup and running just the way you want it and then you perform additional full backups only whenever you make a major change such as installing new software or hardware. Step 2 is keeping a regular daily or weekly backup of all your personal data. When you need to restore your computer you simply recover Windows and all of the programs and settings from your most recent full backup and then you add in the backup of your most recent data which would include things such current documents, photos and emails.
HOW TO DO IT
BACKING UPYOU DATA - There are many ways to back up just your data. It could be as easy as simply copying (dragging) the contents of MY DOCUMENTS to an external USB hard drive or as sophisticated as setting up dedicated software to backup and maintain multiple copies of your data automatically to a network drive each night. Here are just a few of the possible ways to backup your data:
1. COPY DATA – The easiest method of backing up your data is to simply copy it to another location. This could be to a Floppy Disk, CD, DVD, USB flash drive, USB Hard Drive, Zip Drive or even a drive on another computer on your network (See Storage Media Below).
2. BACKUP SOFTWARE – There are many programs available that will allow you to setup plans and schedules to backup your data to a variety of types of storage media. One of my favorites is a Free Program called Cobian Backup. There are other paid versions such as Retrospect or NTI Backup Now. Many of the USB drives come with their own backup software to make it an all-in-one solution. Some even have a single button on the drive that once the software is setup, you simply push the button and it backs up everything that you have selected.
3. ON-LINE BACKUP – This is one of my new favorite methods of backing up data. Many companies are offering ways to backup data online. Even software providers such as Intuit (Quicken/Quickbooks) offer online methods to backup your financial data every night to their servers. Online backup may or may not make sense for you depending on the amount of data that you have as well as how much new data you create on a daily basis. I just recently started using Carbonite.com as a secondary backup to my normal backup plan for some of my most critical data. How can you go wrong for $49 per year for an unlimited amount of data.
BACKUP NOTES: I have to make a few comments about setting up your backups only because I have run into so many individual and corporate customers that where faithfully backing up every day for years only to find out that they either the backups were all bad or they were backing up the wrong data. Double check you backups to make sure they are correct and contain the information that you really need when things go wrong.
STORAGE MEDIA
Whether you are just copying or using backup software, you need a place to actually put your data. You could just place a copy into another folder on your computer, but if your hard drive failed or your computer was stolen or lost in a fire you would loose both your original and your backup. So it is best to keep your backups separated from your originals. Before you can decide on what media you will backup to, you need to determine how much data you actually have. To determine the size of your data, Right Click and select properties on each folder you wish to backup.
1. FLOPPY DISKS – 1.44 megabytes - Even though most new computers do not come with Floppy Disk drives anymore, you can still order one or install one yourself. The problem is that a floppy disk just does not hold enough data to be worth the effort. To put this into perspective a floppy disk is not even large enough to hold a single photograph from today’s high resolution digital cameras.
2. ZIP DRIVES – 100-250 megabytes – Although they are losing popularity, Zip drives can still hold plenty of documents or financial data but are just too small for backing up photos and music.
3. CD-R /RW – 650-700 megabytes – CD’s can hold a fair amount of data but could still be too small for huge numbers of photos or music files.
4. USB FLASH DRIVES – Sometimes called thumb drives, these can be purchased in sizes typically from as small as 8 megabytes to over 4 gigabytes. (The maximum size changes all the time)
5. DVD-R/RW – 4.7-8.4 gigabytes – DVD’s can hold a lot of data and would normally be adequate for data storage for most users. However, if your computer has tons of photos, downloaded music and Video, than you may need something bigger.
6. ADDITIONAL INTERNAL HARD DRIVES – 40-500gigabyes - Many Desktop computers and a few laptops can be fitted with one or more additional hard drives. In some cases these drives can be configured as mirrored drives, meaning that the second drive will always contain an exact copy of the first drive. Even if mirroring is not an option, you can use the additional drive for a place to backup your data.
7. USB HARD DRIVES – 40-500gigabytes - USB Hard Drives come in just about any size up to about 500gigabytes. Again this maximum changes all the time. If you need more space you can always add more than one.
8. NETWORK DRIVES – 40-1.0 terabyte - Also known as Network Attached Storage, these hard drives connect directly to your network and can then be used by every computer in your house or office. Some are smart drives and can contain multiple mirrored drives or even mimic small servers. One of my favorite units is Seagate’s Mirra Drive. This unit connects to your network and backs up your data from every computer in your house in real time. (Meaning that it backs up files whenever you make a change instead of waiting until a specific time of day to do a backup). If you want, you can even log in from anywhere in the world to retrieve your files.
9. FILE SERVER – You could also have a dedicated computer that is set up as a file server or just an old computer with a shared hard drive. This can be a great way to recycle an older computer. Drop a few new hard drives and maybe even install free Linux software and make yourself a nice little home file server.
BACKING UP WINDOWS, PROGRAMS AND SETTINGS
Backing up just your data is fairly easy when compared to trying to get a backup of Windows itself with all your programs and personal settings. The problem is mainly that you can not backup files that are open and in use at the time and since Windows is running and constantly updating and changing files it is very difficult to get a full backup at any given moment in time. The best way to obtain a full backup is to grab an image of your hard drive. Programs such as Norton Ghost and Acronis True Image offer methods to image your drive. The problem is that you do not know if the image file is any good until you actually need it. In my experience many of these images end up not working for one reason or another. My recommendation, now that hard drives are so inexpensive, is to use one of these programs and use the option to clone or copy your drive to 2nd hard drive. Then you can install that drive into your computer to test your backup. Once you know that your cloned drive is good, simply store it in a safe place until needed. Now, when your hard drive fails, simply swap drives and restore your recent personal data from your regular daily data backups and you are back in business.
The down side to this plan is that the cloned hard drive will only boot in your original computer or the exact same model. So if your computer fails or gets stolen, you will be back to being able to only use your data backups. But that is better than nothing.
There are also some backup programs such as Norton Save & Restore that will create a series of recovery CD’s or DVD’s for your computer. These can have the very same potential problems as imaging to another hard drive. HP and Compaq computers built after 2003 come with their own software to create a recovery set of disks.
When it really comes down to it, having to reinstall Windows and all of your programs could be a blessing. Many avid computer users will wipe their computers clean, reformat their drive and reinstall everything from scratch every year or two just to keep things working smoothly. So the most important thing is to have backups of your data and be able to put you hands on all of your original installation CD’s.
ONE OTHER NOTE ON BACKING UP
Regardless of how or what method of backing up you are using. If your computer is in poor condition such as infected with viruses and spyware, hard drive errors and heavily fragmented, your odds of getting a good backup decreases. Your chances of a favorable outcome will improve if you first:
1. Scan for Viruses and Spyware.
2. Scan your drive for errors using Chkdsk or Scandisk.
3. Run disk defragementer on the drive you want to backup.
4. Shut down and reboot your computer before running a backup.
5. Test your backup after it is complete.
Dana
Wayland Computer
Great topic..but lets cut to the chase..
by mcooperstein - 8/25/07 7:00 AM In reply to: Backup Backup Backup by waytronThis is a great topic, one which has been widely debated. The bottom line, taken from a guy who has done system backups as well as home backups for *years*, and has used just about every product out there and every type of media..
1). Requirements: Backup software SHOULD be able to backup not just data, BUT the OS in such a way that a restore will get you back to a bootable system WITHOUT having to reinstall Windows and all your 3rd party software all over again. It should do this RELIABLY!! It makes no difference if you do weekly backups, only to find out that during a critical failure and subsequennt restore that the backup save set is NO GOOD and will not give you back a bootable system! I know this from past experience. To that end, any software that has an option to VERIFY the backup after completion MUST be selected, regardless of the extra time it takes! Norton Ghost has this option but it's not selected by default. Norton Ghost will make a faulty backup set and you will never know it unless you have it go back and do a 'verify'. Acronis True Image does verify by default.
2) By a cheap USB or Firewire external hard drive to do backups to. You can usually get several FULL backups on one of these. Don't mess with DVD's or tape, it's not economically viable anymore as the cost per gigabyte is cheapest with hard drives.
3) Don't mess with incremental backups. It is my opionion that they are more trouble then they're worth. The reason is, that in a situation (catostrophic hard drive failure) where you have to restore to a new drive, incrementals force you to do multiple 'passes' of restore starting with the most recent full backup. The software then has to apply the incremental save sets and make all the 'delta' file system changes to get back to the most current state of the file system. This process doesnt allways works smoothly, and in my opionion it's easiser to just to a full backup every time.
4) If possible, test your backup system on a spare hard drive BEFORE a catostropic failure forces you to rely on it! IOW, do a full backup, then try to restore to the spare drive and see if it boots and everything is copestetic. If it doesnt, find out why, possible get rid of the backup software as it might be worthless (believe me, there are a lot of backup packages out there that are!)
5) My recommendation for backup software is either Norton Ghost, and Acronis True Image Home. Both are reliable, although Norton Ghost does have some oddities about it that I do not like. Both will create a backup that can result in a bootable system. One thing I might mention, sometimes it's necessary to change hard drives, before a failure is immenent (S.M.A.R.T. starts complaining perhaps). As a rule, you should restore your hard drive with one that is the same size or larger then the original. However, supposing you have a 120 GB hard drive, but are only using 40 GB on it. You *should* be able to backup, then restore to a 80 GB drive. Norton used to have problems with this and wouldnt allow it. Acronis doesnt care, as long as you have enough free space on the target drive, it's happy. Lastly, Norton Ghost didn't have a stand alone bootable CD that would allow you to boot their software from a minimal OS (Linux, etc) and then do your restore. They may have this feature now, I'm not sure. Acronis True Image Home does have this feature, and it works great!
5) Bottom line, I like Acronis Image True Image backup software the best. For my money, you can't get a better piece of backup software!
Way to go, Dana
by frenzl - 8/25/07 8:27 AM In reply to: Great topic..but lets cut to the chase.. by mcoopersteinYou are the only one to take online backups seriously, so you got my vote.
Although I don't (as of today) use on-line backup, It's really the only way to solve the geography problem, and It's now cheap enough that I'm going to start.
I'm not so much worried about having a "perfect" copy of my disk, since I can always replace the programs. My data is my life, and even though I have it on two disks here at home, I could definitely be in trouble if a disaster occurs.
If I lose my computer (has happened, burned out power supply), I can get back online in about 1 day (this was cheaper for me, retired, than taking the disk out and having it copied). This may sound like lots of work, but I've only had it happen twice in the last 10 years.
I'm comfortable that with online backup of my critical data, I could even survive a house fire without having to run into the flaming building to grab my external disk.
Online Backup Services
by brookeb - 8/25/07 10:52 AM In reply to: Backup Backup Backup by waytronCorrect me if I'm wrong, but you're the only one to mention online backup services like Carbonite. I'm wondering why? I've just recently joined Carbonite and, in my estimation, it's really easy to use -- once they back a file up, they add a dot to tell you it's done ... green for individual pieces, and blue for files; you'll also see yellow dots for things that haven't been backed up yet. (kind of neat to see all these green dots on my files). Also, when you delete something, Carbonite holds it for 30 days, in case you've made a mistake. I haven't had to use it yet (to get back a lost file), but if it works like it says it does, I think it's well worth the $50 a year to have it.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences with online backup services. It seems like it's a cost-efficient, sensible, easy to use solution, and I'm surprised it has been mentioned more in this thread. Maybe I'm missing something.
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