Community Newsletter: Q&A: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook
- 7/26/07 2:16 PM
After you have all the gobbledeguck straight, remember ...
by fulmer1 - 7/20/07 9:05 PM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
...the final choice depends on YOUR EYES. Take a crib sheet with you if you must to help keep the technical jargon straight, but carefully observe live-and-up-close the images from the various available technologies and brands -- and then pick the one that suits YOU.
Wow Great advice....but everyone seems to have forgotten....
by hawk318 - 7/21/07 2:29 AM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Nice answers all... And these cover just about everything.
I would like to add one critical point that I didn't see.....
If you buy a LCD, make sure you get one with LCD switch rate of a minimum of '6'. (switch rate is how fast each LCD turns on and off)
We have one with an '8' and it's not bad, but there is some minor "blurring" in areas where there is a lot of fast action on screen.
There are some LCD's that come with a "4" now (the lower the number the better)
LCD's have one minor set back.... There is always a slight glow as they require some current to always be present while the TV is on.
This can result in poor black quality.... Some of the newer sets have cut this flow down so the black are blacker and not so washed out....
You should be able to see this with the naked eye.... If the picture is set/ adjusted correctly any blacks should look black, if blacks look washed out... Look at another set 
NOTE: Either you or the salesperson adjust the set to where you prefer the color, black, etc..... Showrooms tend to increase contrast and color for maximum appeal and although it looks good there, it may not be where you want it at home......
High Definition 1080p TV: Why You Should Be Concerned
by Octong777 - 7/21/07 6:57 AM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Hi. I didn't have time to read through every response but it seems like there are a lot of posts that seem to imply that a 1080p set's only importance is just down the road when 1080p content becomes available which really isn't the case (at least as I undersand it). I don't know if it's proper to post links to other sources here but this provides a lot of great info with graphic aids that make some of the concepts pretty easy to understand.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/feature-article-1080p-3-2007-part-1.html
There is a rest of the world outside the US !
by Bert37 - 7/22/07 7:31 AM In reply to: High Definition 1080p TV: Why You Should Be Concerned by Octong777While the forum so far has brought up much sense (and nonsense) about "conventional" TV and a new world of digital high definition formats, there are some points to notice:
1. There is a rest of the world outside the US. This rest is mostly based on PAL and not on NTSC (the later had become famous by some ugly acronyms in Europe) PAL is inherently much better than NTSC and starts in the digital world by 576 lines instead of 480. (The analog values are 625 versus 525).
2. Analog TV is over by the end of 2007 for terrestrial transmission in Switzerland and has been terminated before in most parts of Germany. The rest of central Europe may be similar. While these transmissions do not bring up real HDTV due to bandwidth limitations, these transmissions have visibly improved picture quality. Analog TV will only be used by pay cable companies continuning medium quality.
3. HDTV is available from a number satellite stations. Swiss TV will start a HDTV channel by satellite by dec. 2007. However, non HDTV satellite channels already feed 6.5 Mbit/s in video compared to the usual 4 - 5 Mbit/s
These facts show that the selection of HDTV sets is much more actual in Europe than anywhere else!
Two important points to keep in mind....
by flipvideo - 7/22/07 6:28 PM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
After looking at all of the replies to this question, no one has clarified these important points: As defined by the official HD standards committee (ATSC) who determines and keeps the standards for HD (just as the National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) determined and defined our present analog standard definition broadcast standards), HD is only 720p and 1080i formats in a 16x9 screen ratio. While superior, 1080p presently is not included in ATSC standards at this time, although an amendment will probably be made to include it in the near future.
Next, understanding the native resolution of the HDTV is very important.
Manufacturers have made and represented all sorts of TVs as HDTVs. What they have done is made TVs using all sorts of weird native resolutions and incorrectly called them HDTVs. At one point, you could find so called “HDTVs” being marketed and sold with native resolutions of 1024x768, 852x480, 640x480, and 1366x768. These TVs take real HD signals/content and squeeze or mash them to fit their native resolutions. You not only lose definition with these quasi-HDTVs, you lose color depth, picture and screen content, and resolution data when the signals are truncated or interpolated.
While CNET has steadfastly declares it difficult for them to tell the difference from 1366x768 TVs with HDTVs with native ATSC , many viewers can and, more importantly, the TV makers can. That's why they charge more for the authentic HDTVs as the color values, contrasts, and picture qualities are superior when a real HDTV shows real HD content without having to doctor it up to fit as pseudo-HDTVs with their non-HD standard native resolutions have to.
So why sell TVs with such weird non-HD native resolutions? In their rush to make money off of HD, TV makers decided it was easy and quick to take existing computer monitor technology, adapt it, and call it HD to make quick profits. The resolutions they used included 640x480, 852x480 and 1024x768 which are standard computer monitor resolutions. The most commonly sold pseudo HDTV uses a native resolution of 1366x768; this is merely a 1024x768 screen stretched out to more closely approximate a real HD picture.
There are many experts who have consistently declared that TVs with a native resolution of 1366x768 provide a picture that is every bit as good as a HDTV with native resolutions of 720p, 1080i or 1080p. If so, why are TV makers now pushing HDTVs with legitimate HD native resolutions and charging a lot more money for them? Surely these new HDTVs would not sell and would not be marketed if they were not superior to the “experts” choice of 1366x768 native resolution TVs.
For those who are happy with a less than true HD picture from a jerry-rigged TV, I say fine, you deserve what you are willing to accept. This is the same as taking a famous painting and stretching or truncating it to fit an existing, available matting and frame or taking a musical or symphony and changing its music and words to fit musicians and instruments that can only approximate the original music, instruments, words, and artistic values the artists originated their works in.
We should all remember that the makers of movies, documentaries, and TV shows went to great efforts and lengths to tell their stories with the best artistic and technical talent they could assemble in order to produce their best artistic product in compliance with established HD standards. Our HDTVs should accurately and honestly replicate and present their efforts to us.
Warning!!
by baddawgg - 7/22/07 7:09 PM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Due to a desire by the MPCA (The movie industry's trade association) to prevent you from viewing a movie you paid for more than once (or making copies of it) all broadcast movies and HD-DVD or Blu-Ray movies will not be viewable in HD unless ALL YOUR EQUIPMENT from the signal source to the monitor has HDCP (High Definition Content Protection) capability installed.
I suspect that much TV programming, including the local news, will have HDCP activated.
Don't buy anything without HDCP--you won't be able to use it!
QAM
by paaberlin - 7/26/07 1:52 PM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
If you have cable you do not need a cable box or dvr to receive some HD broadcast.
I bought a small 37" Sharpe hdtv for my bedroom so that I could watch soom channels in HD without a box. The HDTV must have a HD tuner (ATSC) and QAM. That being said I get all the Network channels in HD on subchannels. What is a sub-channel?? If you have QAM channel 10 ,which is NBC, is broadcast in Analog and HD at 720p. Channel 10 is analog and 10.1 is the same broadcast in HD. On the remote control just select 10.1 or on some remotes 10-1 and you now have a HD signal. My Sharpe was engineered to default to 10.1 even if I select channel 10.
FOX is on 29.1 ABC on 3.1 CBS 0n 6.1 Your local area my be different.
I watch the news in the morning on HD and fall asleep a night watching Network show in HD.
Terry PHL
HDTV IS FREE!
by jturner1970 - 7/26/07 2:03 PM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
HDTV IS FREE, OVER THE AIR, WITH RABBIT EARS OR OTHER ARIAL ANTENNA.
In short for the question at hand:
For most needs, 1080i is the best. For those who are looking for a Movie machine for the new HD DVDs coming out, 1080p is the way to go.
For those who want a regular sized HDTV set (42" or less), 720p is a good choice as a lot of broadcasters are using it, and you get a clear image of one frame, not two frames "interlaced" over each other.
If you want to know the "whys", read on.
THE "NATIVE" RESOLUTION OF A TV IS HOW MANY LINES OF RESOLUTION ITS PHYSICAL SCREEN ACTUALLY HAS.
The TV may list a whole slew of resolutions, but these are what its video chips are capable of changing into its NATIVE size. Most HDTVs that are showing the older SDTV (standard definition TV 540i) still used by most cable and tv stations will have black bars on either side and the image will probably be grainy as the chips must create an extra couple hundred lines of image that aren't there.
For the forseeable future, 1080p will be the best resolution for awhile and it will show the new HD DVDs coming out, but it must decode all signals not 1080p, so depending on the quality of its chips, be prepared for grainy images, and\or alot of black bars around smaller resolution images when watching anything not recorded in 1080p.
720p is fine if your screen is perhaps 42" or less, but it also must decode signals to its 720p format, so be prepared for grainy images and\or black bars when watching cable\broadcast channels not HD when watching anything not shown in 720p on a 720p TV.
And last but not least, is the misunderstood 1080i. It gives the best of both old and new.
When watching HD sources, many 1080i sets have made the tops of Ratings lists. When watching the current standard signals found on 80% of tv, cable, and video sources, 1080i simply reverts to the standard 540 res (1080i \2 = 540) on these current signals. It will show current DVDs and other "480p" (540 with top and bottom 30 lines blank for noise reduction) sources, just as clear, without any black bars, as it shows HD sources. Plus, all the DVDs, video games, recorded shows on DVD, etc... people may have collected for years, will view fine on 1080i machines.
If you have bought a quality 720p or 1080p TV (quality as in the chips in the TV's brain can decode other signals to the TV's 720p or 1080p screen with minimal loss of picture quality) you probably won't have problems either, but don't skimp on budget with these 720p and 1080p machines.
Got this in an E-mail. Can you comment in C-Net?
by jabaravaya - 7/26/07 2:08 PM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Subj: HDTV (Hi-Def Television) Owners Lawsuit Information
Date: 7/20/2007 5:14:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: ForHDTVOwnersOnly@submityourthoughts4fun.com
To: tondelaio@aol.com (my wifes e address) SlotmanJ
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Beginning in 2005
Display manufacturers such as Samsung, Sony, JVC, Toshiba and Mitsubishi began selling -- and touting -- new "1080p" High-Definition TVs. According to their manufacturers, these new LCD, DLP and plasma sets -- with a horizontal resolution of 1920 dots across by 1080 vertical lines (i.e. 1920x1080 pixels) -- produced the smoothest, clearest picture possible.
The HDTV manufacturers never bothered to explain -- is that, if you try to plug a 1080p output to the 1080i input of a 1080p display, you will get no image. These "1080p" HDTVs are unable to accept the 1080p signals from any device, including Sony's PS3, Blu-Ray players and HD-DVDs.
Common 1080p Television Manufacturers:
Samsung
Sony
JVC
Mitsubishi
Toshiba
March 9, 2007
All 1080p displays can only display images progressively (each resolution line has to be displayed at the same time) and because of this they all have to deinterlace interlaced transmissions before displaying. The deinterlacing can be done correctly (by weaving the 1080 lines together) or incorrectly by taking 540 of the lines and just doubling them. The technology for the latter method (called bobing) is cheaper but you are also throwing away half of the resolution. The use of bobing for interlacing on those 1080p displays which only have 1080i inputs may amount to false advertising.
HDTVs Not What They Seem
High Definition Televisions (HDTVs) have become a popular new purchase; however, some people do not realize that some of the 1080p HDTVs have a defect because they are not compatible with all 1080p devices.
If you purchased a "1080p" HDTV in 2005 or 2006, and would like to speak to an attorney about your experience please take a moment ot fill out this form to send your complaint.
Please fill out this form to the best of your ability and a law firm representative will contact you in the next few business days to review your situation and possible courses of action. (US residents only)
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Uh-huh
by gingaskunk - 7/26/07 10:08 PM In reply to: Got this in an E-mail. Can you comment in C-Net? by jabaravayaOkay this is not my thread but I have to respond to this!
They are confusing several things together here....
First point (and the most important as their whole case seems to hinge on it).... there is no "1080i input" on a TV. Period. There are several ways to get a 1080i signal to a TV though. This is bit like talking about the "airbag car". This of course doesn’t exist, but there are lots of cars that have airbags. Among the most popular choices for transferring a 1080i signal are DVI, Component and HDMI.
Second point.... I think they are talking here about trying to connect a 1080 source using component cables. Component cables are perfectly capable of carrying any 1080p signal (ask any X-Box 360 owner with an HDTV), however what they don't send is security tagging. When you are playing a High Definition DVD (either HD DVD or Blu Ray) the player must be able to "talk" to the device it is sending the signal to in order to make sure they are genuine products. Although component cables will carry a 1080p signal from a non protected source (like, say, a video game) they will not allow the two device to "talk security" to each other, so for this reason cannot be used to play 1080p movies. The only connector that allows this talk to happen is HDMI.
Third and final point.... the whole "1080p sets can only show 1080 images progressively" thing is, again wrong. These sets are physically capable of showing a 1080i image but a lot don't simply because they up-convert the signal. It's like saying Mrs Smith's Bakery can only make chocolate cake with high quality chocolate. This is obviously not true, they could provide a lower quality product, but if they are capable of offering something better, why wouldn’t they?
In short this is either an out and out hoax (which I suspect) or at best an ambulance chaser who is fishing for enough people to make a class action before s/he bothers to spend time doing any real research on it.
Essentially this is either phishing or fishing!
1080i HD TV with Line Doubler or "Progressive Scan Doubler"
by remmeler - 7/28/07 4:35 AM In reply to: Uh-huh by gingaskunkI don't usually post to forums so I don't know exactly how to post my question.
I have an older 1080i HD set with the "Progressive Scan Doubler".
This, I assume takes the two interlaced signals from the cable company and holds them and displays them at once like a Progressive (1080p) set would do from a HD DVD player.
It is explained by the manual as a "Progressive Scan Doubler, which de-interlaces the NTSC signal and progressively scans the image allowing you to sit close and not see the thin black horizontal lines associated with interlaced TV pictures"
Until I want to get a HD DVD player or until there are broadcasts in 1080P is there any improvement that I would see if I bought a new 1080p HD TV?
Also, Don't all 1080i HD sets have this "Line Doubler" feature?
Not certain
by gingaskunk - 7/28/07 7:41 AM In reply to: 1080i HD TV with Line Doubler or "Progressive Scan Doubler" by remmelerHi there,
I am not certain but it sounds as if they are simply talking about taking a 480i singal (standard broad cast) and de-interlacing that.... In other words, that you will see the whole 480 lines at the same time not half the picture in 240 then another 240.
On older HD sets, they did exactly what the poster above said in his "legal e-mail" in that they showed the picture on a 1080i screen by simply doubling the picture (i.e. if we number the lines of the incoming 480 signal 1,2,3 etc and the 1080 lines on your TV a,b,c etc, it would show you a full progressive 480 picture on every other line of the TV. It would show line 1 of the signal on lines a and b of your TV, and line 2 of the 480 signal on lines d and e of your TV and so on.
This is how older HDTVs handled these signals.
As far us upgrading, if you are happy with the picture, stick to it. However would there be a discernable difference, probably yes. This is not because you are moving from a 1080i set to a 1080p one, but simply because the 1080p one would have new technology.
When you receive standard 480 broadcasts on a newer big screen TV, it doesn't double, it up-converts. This means that it will show line 1 of the broadcast on line a of your TV, then line 2 on line c and so on (each broadcast line goes to every other line on the big screen). A computer chip built into the newer TV would then actually look at the colors and shapes on lines a and c and a create a brand new line b itself that it guesses is right, so you end up with 1080 lines of unique picture, but half of them are generate by the TV.
As a side note, newer TVs tend to handle non native HDTV better too (e.g. broadcasts in 720 instead of 1080).
.
Hope this helps.
HDTV CAMCORDER
by marc_90292 - 7/28/07 3:59 AM In reply to: Help me untangle the HDTV technical gobbledygook by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
While we are at it, can you guide me on the puchase of an HDTV camcorder. I went to Circuit City - after ComUSA and others haven't even heard of it - and looked at a number of Hi Def camcorders, JVC, Sony, Panasonic. I liked what I saw.
Except that when doing more research, some of them had 1080i only and couldn't switch to 480 or whatever inbetween. For example the JVC GZHD7 only features 1080i output, meaning I could have problems delivering HD video to clients. Why would anybody do this?
Next, user feedback warned that for some formats there are no editors around.
Do you have any comment on this section of HD?
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