Community Newsletter: Q&A: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables
- 6/15/07 6:51 AM
What a Deal!
by feralcoder - 6/9/07 11:15 AM In reply to: QOTW 053207 bus Answer by acoxon1274Everybody, you can stop stealing your music! You can now BUY it! For only $18.90 an album! Somebody remind me - why were we stealing in the first place?
cables or conductor conduits
by lucerne - 6/9/07 2:32 PM In reply to: QOTW 053207 bus Answer by acoxon1274seems to me,"buss's answer", was simply stirring the question about, rather than,adressing it,the question,. oh gosh, I forgot the question. OH yeah, cables or conductor conduits. catch the drift? murph
Choosing cables
by JBHawk - 6/9/07 9:13 PM In reply to: QOTW 053207 bus Answer by acoxon1274Whew! What a load!
ummm what?
by carlycfs - 6/11/07 4:29 AM In reply to: QOTW 053207 bus Answer by acoxon1274And this was considered one of the TOP answers? I think I will have to agree with the other two comments posted on this thread- after I was done reading, and reading again, I was like "whaaat?"
no ???? here
by bikernut - 6/11/07 8:34 AM In reply to: QOTW 053207 bus Answer by acoxon1274if everybody READS carefully your answer SAYS IT ALL !!!!!!!!!!
Cables...
by MPlatner - 6/12/07 1:02 PM In reply to: QOTW 053207 bus Answer by acoxon1274I'm a Broadcast Engineer. I've cabled stations from NY to LA and here in Chicago. People need to loose the idea that spending $100 on a set of component cables will be the life of their system. No, don't buy junk ($3.00 cables), but paying extra for Gold connectors is totally ridiculous!!! First off, I make all my own cables using Belden or Clark Wire & Cable. I make them to the exact length & put on all the ends myself. Result? Perfect! I you're gonna claim to be an audiophile, learn to use a soldering iron!
G..
Perfect
by agb100 - 6/14/07 2:56 PM In reply to: Cables... by MPlatnerHmmmm. The first TV pictures were considered "perfect." Mono was considered perfect until stereo arrived. Stereo was considered perfect until various surround sound schemes surfaced (BTW, none of them are any good today.) CD was touted as "Perfect Sound Forever" by the Philips-Sony union...and that is why we're in the seventh generation of CD playback and the third or fourth generation of CD manufacturing technology today that these two firms manufacture. We perfected the perfect. Well, they did. Black and white TV was perfect then. HDTV is perfect today.
Belden cable is perfect for those who can stand to listen to it. Transistors are perfect and that is why millions have gone back to using a 120 year old technology for amplification: tubes. Some of these people couldn't stand to listen to transistor "perfection" without climbing the walls.
There are literally hundreds of companies manufacturing tube technology today. Meaning hundreds more than there were in 1980.
Amazing, huh, how the perfect is shunned by those with ears and eyes and an open mind?
Meantime, enjoy your Belden wire. The top studios have rewired their consoles with better wire and they didn't do it to please the boss, but because keen listeners could hear and describe what they were hearing. Meaning, many people with ears could hear the very same things others who were not discerning cannot.
Potential winning answers.
by Lee Koo (ADMIN) - 6/8/07 9:25 AM
In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Here are the selected submissions grouped in one post. Read through them and place your votes in the newsletter poll.
Answer:
Question
Alright, so I've been trying to become involved in the high-definition era for a few years now. As far as I'm concerned, picking the right cables can be controversial. Whenever you go buy a new HDTV or an accessory component, the salesmen always ask if you have the appropriate connections. Then they always ask if you have "the best" connections that will provide the optimal picture and sound. So is there? Is a $15 cable going to provide equivalent performance to a $100 cable of the same type? And does this question have a different answer for analog and digital cables? I'd love to get the facts straight once and for all. Thanks! --Submitted by Derek M.
Answer
A good salesperson should ask you questions that produce the best choices for you that will allow your system to function at its highest performance level within your price range and living environment. In this busy world we live in, the sales interview is too time consuming to take place properly and the more common practice is the buyer finds the components/system at the best price and buys at the location of convenience with the understanding that the some system of cabling is included or in the case that no cabling is included the cheapest cabling available is bought to just make sure the system works.
After the components/system has been found to be functional the fine tuning of its performance becomes a consumer need, usually brought on by ads and a nagging feeling of having missed something along the way (what are all the connections on the back for). One of the areas that a consumer can upgrade at the component or system level is the cabling, just due to the fact that cabling doesn’t require a great deals of skill and tools. The industry/marketplace answers the need by providing cabling at various price levels. Once the marketplace has enough statistics a comfort price range is established usually incorporating, low end, good, and high end with very little reflection on true quality.
The final point, is your satisfaction. With most reliable vendors, you can buy what you want with the understanding you can and will return items your are unsatisfied with. So the next time you are faced with a salesperson asking the question “do you have "the best" connections that will provide the optimal picture and sound?” listen and then tell them you will take both with the understanding that you will return what is unsatisfactory. Take the purchases home and see what you think and based on that return what you don’t like. When you are using your components/system you are using your analog receptor systems that you were born with. The components/system is passing the signal through an analog medium (the speaker and display) so you can experience it as a reproduction of the original media. The only time digital comes into play is when the reproduction of the original media requires conversion from digital to analog to allow you to experience it. Until we can be equipped with digital input jacks you should not worry yourself about the shape and size of ones and zeros.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2507778#2507778
Submitted by: bus
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Answer:
Cables = Profit
Having worked in the sound & video industry since long before the advent of HDTV (let's just say that the average projector was several hundred pounds in those days), cables have always been a dirty little secret for the retail side of the business.
The primary reason that you are asked about cables is that the salesman can make more of a commission on that $100 cable than he does off of the HDTV on which you just spent $1500 or more. Profit margins on TVs have gotten very small, and may only be a couple of percentage points at most. On the other hand, the cable that you are paying $100 to buy costs the store about $15 to purchase.
Now for the question of quality... There are some differences in the quality of cable, connectors, and construction, but not enough to justify the large cost differential in most cases. RG6 Quad Shield cable is probably your best choice for coaxial digital connections, but chances are that the cable itself all comes from the same source for both the cheap cable and the expensive one. More important that choosing the "best" cable is choosing the RIGHT cable. 110-Ohm? 75-Ohm? 50-Ohm? All have their appropriate uses, but the bast way to choose is by looking at the suggested applications on the package or website description. When it comes to connectors, more expensive is not always better, just go for something that has a sturdy look and feel. Gold is not necessarily better than nickel, unless you have some very long cable runs (or are looking at an oscilloscope). Your best bet is to match the metal on the connector on the TV itself. Basic electrical principles tell you that like metals will always make a better connection than unlike ones.
With regard to HD signals, digital is a different world from analogue, when it comes to signal loss. Analogue signals degrade over distance, and will provide some image even if you are below the optimal threshold. Consider being able to pick up a radio station from several hundred miles away... It may have alot of static, but it is still there. Digital signals require a signal above the threshold to function, so if the signal drops below a distance limit, you get nothing. That is why your satellite TV goes out during periods of extreme weather rather than just delivering a snowy picture. The same is true for the signal between your Blu Ray DVD player and your HDTV. If You can see a picture, you are above the threshold, and a "better" cable will likely make no discernible difference. Just determine your connection in order of quality.... HDMI is better than YPbPr (Component Video), and these are the only true HD connection types readily available today. DVI-D is the same, and interchangeable with HDMI with a simple adapter. You may have some may have some issues with HDCP using an older set with DVI-D and not HMDI, but that is another issue.
All in all, don't buy the expensive cables that the sales person tells you are "the best" ones out there, as they are only "the best" source of revenue for him. Those thicker brand M cables are typically nothing more than a few extra layers of rubber on the same conductor used by everyone else. At the same time, don't necessarily buy the cheapest cables either, as these are sometimes very flimsy and won't last for repeated use. Buy the least expensive ones with a quality construction and solid feel. Ask to see one out of the package... If they won't do it, go somewhere that will
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2503089#2503089
Submitted by: davdunlap
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Answer:
HDTV Cabling
Cables and connections for stereo, HDTV, or any electronic media can be compared to hoses for moving water around your house. If you have a pump that will deliver 50 gallons of water per minute and you need to deliver 75 gallons per minute to some plants or a fountain, sorry. It will deliver 50 gallons max and your fountain will not chirp merrily, it will just slog along.
Cables have a maximum delivery capablity and if you don't meet or exceed that your media will suffer. But on the same line of thought, if your plumbing will deliver 200 gallons of water and your pump will supply 100, you have wasted a lot of capability (which you paid for and will never get). Same with some of the monster cables that are around today, they are built to deliver ear shattering amount of wattage to speakers that if you did deliver, would soon reduce your ability to hear it to deafness.
The idea behind HDTV is that they are now sliding more data down the channels, and you can't do that with the old cables (maybe 25 gallon pipes). Same with HD DVD, Blue Ray and all the new things. You need to have a pipe that will deliver the amount that is being sent. You definitely need HDMI or better when using any HD device. You can use the other cabling (component, s-type, etc) but there is a difference. Some things won't even work without the proper cable, like upconversion to an HD set.
As for the price, that is something else entirely. Just because you pay $100 for a hose, doesn't mean it is made to stand the pressure of delivery. It is almost a matter of 'You get what you pay for', but not quite. There are connections at both ends of the hose and there are connections at both ends that belong to the other components, like your TV and the HD DVD. They are just as critical as the cable, they could be below par so that needs to be checked in the buying phase. I will say that buying cable from a reputable source has always made sense (when money is no object). I have however, bought from many different sources and compared and find that workmanship, and a quality product is not guaranteed by price.
What I have done is buy a great cable at a high price (you are going to need many cables by the way) and then bought a few from other sources at reasonable prices and compared them. Most have a return policy anyway, so the ones that didn't perform, I just sent back. Some times the ones that went back were the high priced ones. If you can't see or hear the difference, what are you paying for?
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2504006#2504006
Submitted by: the_shelton
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Answer:
Sometimes more expensive does not equal more quality
Often we relate higher price with higher quality, and indeed the phrase "you get what you pay for" is often true. Retailers who sell higher priced cables for audio and video want you to believe that is true. However in reality, this is a product area where more money does not mean higher quality.
Let's think about what a good connection cable does for a moment. A good cable will pass a signal with no noticeable degredation of the signal. With analog signals, this can be a little tricky as you start dealing with highly refined, high resolution components. With digital cables, contrary to what some would want you to believe, a cable is a cable.
With analog cables, each cable has electrical characteristics which are dictated primarily by how the cable itself is made. Some use a single solid strand core, others use a braided wire. Some use silver, some use copper - you get the idea. The source and destination components also have electrical characteristics of their own. When you assemble the source/cable/destination combination, typically very subtile results happen. I must emphasize that the differences are subtle at best, and cost is not a factor!
How about digital? The true luxury of digital connections is that the electrical characteristics are taken out of the connection. Digital either works or it doesn't. Cables are a non-issue.
When making a purchase, keep in mind that cables are a huge markup item. When the sales person tries to talk you into buying "the best" cable, line filter, etc. to go with your new purchase, they are doing their job. In chain stores, they do so to keep their job.
Submitted by: thekidrocks
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2503400#2503400
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Answer:
Derek,
This really should not be difficult at all: In a nutshell, “ultra premium cables” are the snake oil of the consumer electronics business. Nothing more than an attempt to separate you from more of your money.
Go to www.monoprice.com and buy your AV cables there. You will, in some cases, pay less than 10% of what some comparable cables will cost from some other sources. I mean this literally, some of the cables that some outlets and retail stores sell for more than $100 can be bought for $10-$20, with quality that is just as good (including gold plated connectors). Yes, SOME $15 cables are as good as --and in a few cases may even be better than-- SOME $100 cables.
Some other places that I use (I have not found these to be as good as monoprice for AV cables, but they are as good for some other types of cables, including network cables) include:
www.pimfg.com
www.computergate.com
www.stanleysupplyservices.com (used to be Contact East)
I will add that while the “super premium” cables are, in my view, nothing but a scam, there definitely are “junk” cables that you need to avoid. However, paying $100+ for a $10 cable isn’t the way to do it.
By the way, about my qualifications: I’m a degreed Electronics Engineer. I also have a number of computer certifications, including CompTIA A+ and Network+. I teach college courses in computers and networking. I got my amateur radio license in 1963 (at age 13), and my FCC 1st Class commercial license in 1966, and I worked as a radio and TV broadcast engineer while in high school and college. I’ve been in the electronics industry my entire life, and working with all kinds of cables for a long, long time. The rip-off that I see just about daily from the makers of “ginormous” cables offends me no end. It takes all the restraint I can muster when I’m in the “Greatest Purchase” or the “Electronics Metropolis” retail stores not to scream at them when they try to sell a customer an HDMI cable for $100+ (sometimes a very big plus) that can readily be bought online for $15-$20. You have better things to spend your money on than ultra-premium cables which are no better than what you get from the sources that I listed above.
[You might now want to ask how to avoid the real “junk” cables, and I can’t give you a good answer. The problem is that you can’t see the internal construction of a cable. The good news, however, is that excluding analog video, cables that are so badly made that they impact performance (especially without failing totally) are not all that common. As for total failures, although it doesn’t help the inconvenience, the warranty, at least up to a year or so, is a good guide to what you can expect.]
Two other comments:
Analog cables are actually [far] more critical than digital cables, especially for video. A digital video cable (for example HDMI or DVI) generally either works or it doesn’t; the cable generally doesn't (can't, really) degrade the image quality, as long as it’s working. But an analog video cable (say a 15-pin VGA cable) CAN degrade the video quality and cause ringing, ghosting and smearing, and, frankly, a lot (most) of the analog computer video cables are pretty bad. But it’s usually fairly easy to judge these: The diameter of the cable is very nearly directly related to the quality of the cable (the fatter the cable the better ... you want a big, fat cable). So definitely avoid thin, slender cheap feeling cables for analog applications (and note that component video cables are analog, not digital). But, that said, the bandwidth of "old style" [NTSC or SDTV] composite video cables (yellow RCA cables and even S-Video cables) is low enough that in short lengths the quality does not have a big impact. It's another matter, however, for computer video cables (analog VGA) and for HDTV component video cables (although if at all possible, these should be avoided entirely in favor of HDMI or DVI digital video cables).
Also, there is a difference between a cable that is subject to continuous motion (say a headphone or microphone cable as about the worst case) and a cable that, once installed, will just about never be subject to any mechanical motion or stress at all (the cables interconnecting your components from the rear, tucked away way deep in your dusty but otherwise untouched equipment cabinet). I’ll pay a little more for a good headphone extension cord (or, perhaps more relevantly, a good warranty on the cord), because being subject to constant motion and physical strain, it’s physical construction is a bit more relevant. Mechanical construction of many other cables is far less critical; once you install them, they may not be subject to much in the way of mechanical stress.
Still, the AV cables I’ve gotten from monoprice (with whom I have no connection other than as a mail order retail customer) have been top-drawer in quality and bottom drawer in price, and I’ve had no need to even look at other sources.
Regards,
Barry Watzman
Watzman@neo.rr.com
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2502808#2502808
Submitted by: Watzman
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Answer:
Video Cables for Hi Def
There is controversy surrounding the older S-Video, DVI and the new HDMI standard for use between your display and source (set top box or satellite receiver) with respect to what is "best." Or better. DVI is HDMI minus the audio interconnects. S-Video is no longer acceptable. Yes, new cable technologies are coming on the market regularly. Some users, like myself, still prefer to use the older standard "component video," which too, has a controversy surrounding it.
I have seen and heard substantial differences in performance between video AND audio cables (as a former reviewer for a high end audio publication.) The rule is, one needs to spend more to get performance...but not always much more. A good component video cable will likely outperform -- in fine systems -- even a good HDMI, though the newer technologies I speak of that incorporate EMI and noise suppression have made significant leaps to close the gaps and possibly surpass component video.
There are good technical reasons why some interconnects perform better than others, however in the cable business the manufacturers provide "White Papers" to explain theirs that more resemble sorcery than science. Yet it IS science, not advertisement, that proves a cable's mettle.
Whether you choose HDMI or component video, do experiment WITH BOTH. Buy with return privileges and see for yourself. Also consider that unless your audio is held in the digital domain from source to your amplifiers, digital cables will not, and cannot sound as good as discrete audio cables specifically designed for the purpose.
And have no doubt about it, your sound (audio) is as, if not more important to your enjoyment of a film, or sport, as your video setup!
But first, do have your hi def set, whenever possible, calibrated by an ISF certified technician to get the correct black and white levels...and the correct grays. You cannot have accurate and natural color rendition if you do not have correct grays, blacks and whites. On the other hand, some later model hi def sets can be adjusted by the user to come close enough if the user uses common sense. Remember to reduce contrast and brightness first!
Finally, DO read the publications that are at the forefront of the science, The Perfect Vision and Home Theater Magazine.
Why some cables are more expensive
In addition to my answer above Derek, I'll add issues of psychology.
A man's credentials as a technician, reviewer, installer, or years in the industry do not matter. His REAL experience listening and viewing interconnects DO matter.
If the man is set in his views that either he always will hear or see differences or improvements between cables, than it is his psychology, and not reality, speaking. And if he tells you that there are no differences between audio and video interconnects, it is the same.
A Chevy will get you there. So will a Ferrari. If you can't afford a Ferrari you will, sometimes, actually believe that there is NO reason to spend $200,000 for a Ferrari, or that the improvements you see, feel, or believe regarding the quality of one over the other, does not warrant the higher price. In the case of a car, one can say we are talking values, not value. There is a huge distinction between one's values, and the objective value of the subject matter.
Objectively, as well as subjectively, many people have an huge investment in their belief systems. Objectively and subjectively, in the highest quality systems -- as in a high quality microscope -- one can hear and see dramatic differences between interconnects. But not always...just most of the time.
There are levels of qualitative improvements between cables that can be repeatedly demonstrated to anyone with an open mind.
If a man has never heard, let's say (and I'll choose one lesser known but a very competitive and successful brand) NORDOST video or audio cables, one can actually continue to believe that his Best Buy cables...even by a major well known manufacturer -- is good enough, or the best. For example, a Nordost component video interconnect, if I remember correctly, costs about $500. To many it is insanely priced.
So the way I see it....I mean "see" it....is that is is 10% of the price of your $5000 large screen TV. Or about 15% of your $3500 large screen TV. What if I told you that it can improve your picture quality 30%? Even after calibration!
You'd probably not believe me and believe the gents on this post who -- never having experienced it for themselves -- tell you to just go ahead and buy the $19 cables.
No I say. Order the high priced spread with return privileges...see for yourself...and improve your enjoyment of the hobby.
The fact is, meeting the specs is NOT enough. The impedance terminations of these cables are critical. Close enough is not enough.
The sad truth about quality is that it costs money. There are no free lunches, no free health care, no free drugs. Someone has to pay for all of those. There are consequences to be paid for short cuts to quality (your Ferrari will beat the pants off your Chevy and the girl sitting next to you just may be hotter than the one sitting next to the guy in the Chevy...) All steaks do not taste the same; all suits do not feel the same, nor fit the same; all amplifiers do not sound the same; all hi def TV displays do not have the same quality of video processing.
All cables do not have the same performance because in fact they do not have the same transmission capability...
...because we cannot measure all things. We, well, some of us, just believe that we can. And it is what you have not yet measured that makes the difference...especially if someone has measured and identified what makes the important differences. Ferrari has. But it costs money to give you the F-048's performance. Sorry, but reality does not care what we think...only what is.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2503082#2503082
Submitted by: agb100
Importance of good audio cables
by drizs - 6/8/07 6:02 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Hi Derek,
I would not recommend spending too much money on video cables, but would separate entry-level and stuff that comes with your TV set from more advanced and better-made cables. At the end of the day it is all about the quality of connection between two or more devices.
I guarantee that if you connect the same cable-box to your TV using similar type of cables; you would not see any difference, unless of course you are using some sophisticated optical tuning devices in which case people see their family doctor as soon as possible.
On the other hand, when it comes to audio cables, specifically cable that connect your speakers and components to the receiver, good, more expensive cables can make a huge deference. I am an audiophile and have been hunting for “perfect” sound reproduction for years. Over the years, I have tested dozens of different products including some insane things like solid silver cables, etc.
Therefore, my suggestion would be – do not go overboard, but try to buy something that is going to perform and would allow you to enjoy your sound system, TV etc. I also disagree with the statements about the fact that cables that are more expensive are made for wealthier crowd. For example, if you are investing in a pair of good speakers, do not go cheap on a speaker cable.
SD
Save some BIG MONEY
by Maximusprime2x - 6/8/07 6:11 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I used name brand cables in the past while my friends used quality Radio Shack brand.I can't recall ever sitting and saying to him your system sounds like the THD is .oo5 compare to the .oo3 THD.most humans can't hear the diffrence.the spec data is for your own personal knowlage and no one else.and as far as Sub woofer Digital cables I saved a ton of money by useing some old Direct TV coaxil thats sheilded for my Sub with end connections I bought at Radio Shack.I have used DVI cables from (Cables To Go) and my HTPC pic is just wonderful.and saved big bucks doing it that way.
bottom line
by cappyx - 6/9/07 12:18 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
bottom line: i have found the mid grade quality cables are as good as monster at 1/4 the price. read online reviews before buying cables as some companies just put out a poor product. monster wanted 50-80 bucks for a 3' hdmi cable i got a really nice quality cable froma generic manufacturer for 12.99 and it works fantastic. bottom line: the signal is digital it is either there or not this is all you recieving component cares about. monster is becoming the "mobile fidelity" of this decade. with the digital age they are dated and need to start thinking price adjustments.
my theory:
if it's analog, consider monster
if it's digital, use whatever works as 101010 is 101010 no matter what cable sends that data to my decoder and my decoder doesn't care if it's monster.
Food for thought: did you notice after you ran that 10ga monster speaker wire to you speakers that the wire in your speakers is 18ga? yes even high end expensive speakers are 18ga wired so what did the 10ga monster wire from the amp to the speaker gain me?????
cables
by Riverrruuner - 6/9/07 5:32 AM In reply to: bottom line by cappyxone word : http://www.monoprice.com
thank you
by cappyx - 6/14/07 11:06 PM In reply to: cables by RiverrruunerTHANK YOU:)
home audioand video
by robsas1958 - 6/9/07 2:02 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
as long as you gat oxygen free cables with gold plated connection there is no diff to naked eye or human ear if it cost 20 gbp or 2hundred gbp
Lamp Chord
by tbcass - 6/9/07 6:03 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I never buy "premium" cables as they are a waste of money. I'm a former audiophile and have found that cheap lamp chord works best for speaker cables. I use a Generic HDMI cable on my HiDef TV and the results are superb.
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