Community Newsletter: Q&A: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables
- 6/15/07 6:51 AM
So Many Variables and Choices
by cnetmessageman - 6/10/07 1:21 PM In reply to: Video Cables for Hi Def by agb100All the selected posts offer some good points to consider on this topic of low-end vs high-end cables. In particular, the posts by both "agb100" and "watzman" offer excellent views based on credible data and lengthly experience. Consequently, I have only a few extensions to these observations to offer.
In attempting to address the perception of system performance, there are 3 primary considerations:
(1) The level of audio/video resolution that the system components (syngenically) are capable of producing.
(2) Environment - size, shape and other material factors that impact acoustics and visuals.
(3) The psychological and emotional state as well as the physical limitations of the user.
There are indeed so many variable that universal consensus is not realistically attainable, but we can certainly attempt to seek general guidelines that offer some reasonable consistency. IMHO, ones aim should be to maximize the performance potential of the system in the way that is most satisfying. Ultimately this is up to you the user. For me, personally, this means getting the best bang-for-the buck - which generally conforms to the 80/20 rule. I recognize that this means making some compromises.
In general you do get what you pay for but there are significant differences between marketing hype and reality - part of the focus of this Community Letter - so always exercise common sense and do a bit of research rather than blindly accepting a sales pitch.
Many of those reading these posts (including myself) do not have and cannot afford mega bucks systems so acquiring outrageously expensive cables shouldn't even be an option to contemplate. A great cable (if such a beast exists) cannot transform a mediocre system component into a high-end one no matter how much we may wish for it to do so.
I have seen for myself that there is a significant difference between using a better HDMI cable than the generic one included with the DVD Player or your HD TV. My choice of upgrade cable was Impact Acoustics' SonicWave HDMI cable which retails at www.overstock.com for $50 (2M) $52 (3M). I do not know how its performance compares to the HDMI cable sold by www.monoprice.com but its material composition is a bit more upscale and as good as or better than Monster, AR, Belkin, etc. This cable was used to connect a Toshiba "HD" (1080i rear projection) TV to a Samsung DVD-HD950 Player. Certainly not top of the line (even at the time) components but each was highly rated for providing above average audio and video performance within and above their respective price class. The DVD Movie, Ray, (even the non HD disc) really shows off what your system might be capable of.
For the most part, I first try to focus on elements that will improve almost any AV system regardless of price. Consider the following:
(1) A fairly "live" acoustic environment (room)
(2) Speaker selection and placement (subject to spousal approval). Speakers are where most experts recommend spending a significant amount of your system cost. My budget choice was the Vandersteen 2Ce.
(3) Improve signal/electrical flow at all audio video connection points by reducing impedance difference and oxidation, and by increasing contact area. All gold plated connectors were cleaned with Craig Labs Deoxit and Craig Labs ProGold G100L. All non-gold plated connectors were cleaned with Flitz Metal Polish. All the connectors were then subsequently coated with Mapleshade's Silclear Silver Contact Enhancer.
(4) Reduce and/or eliminate line noise by using Passive Line Noise filters such as AudioPrism Quietline modules, Stillpoints ERS Cloth, and Quantum ElectroClear QRT.
(5) Elevate cables above the floor and where possible separate the power, audio, and video cables from each other.
Hopefully, the above provides some additional perspective rather than being considered "off topic".
I had the same questions...until my cable man showed up...
by jtede1918 - 6/2/07 6:24 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
When I bought my LG LCD TV I also bought $150.00 HDMI cable so I could enjoy the 1080i. As it turns out the(RCA)cables provided with my digital service (which were FREE) is what the cable guy said he recommends (I also bought an $18.00 pair at Walmart for my Surround sound/DVD system). They come equipped with GOLD connectors for better quality just like the $150.00 ones. After trying the HDMI cable anyway (which I later returned) I saw that the difference in quality DID NOT warrant $150.00 when there are not enough channels in HD yet anyway.
oops,answer isn't appropriate
by chuckstarck - 6/9/07 5:25 AM In reply to: I had the same questions...until my cable man showed up... by jtede1918Your cable guy has slightly misslead you as well. When you say RCA cables, you're analog, HDMI is digital. If it looked the same with the RCA cables, you're not getting the HDMI signal and can't see the difference. Yes, the RCA's are about all that is necessary for a standard TV broadcast but HD must have the connection to the HDMI interface. As for the $150, you can purchase the HDMI cable for 1/5th the price and/or your cable guy should have given you the cable anyway. My cable guy has boxes and boxes of HDMI and S-video and so on, just for the asking.
Cables = Profit
by davdunlap - 6/2/07 6:32 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Having worked in the sound & video industry since long before the advent of HDTV (let's just say that the average projector was several hundred pounds in those days), cables have always been a dirty little secret for the retail side of the business.
The primary reason that you are aske about cables is that the salesman can make more of a commission on that $100 cable than he does off of the HDTV on which you just spent $1500 or more. Profit margins on TVs have gotten very small, and may only be a couple of percentage points at most. On the other hand, the cable that you are paying $100 to buy costs the store about $15 to purchase.
Now for the question of quality... There are some differences in the quality of cable, connectors, and construction, but not enough to justify the large cost differential in most cases. RG6 Quad Shield cable is probably your best choice for coaxial digital connections, but chances are that the cable itself all comes from the same source for both the cheap cable and the expensive one. More important that choosing the "best" cable is choosing the RIGHT cable. 110-Ohm? 75-Ohm? 50-Ohm? All have their appropriate uses, but the bast way to choose is by looking at the suggested applications on the package or website description. When it comes to connectors, more expensive is not always better, just go for something that has a sturdy look and feel. Gold is not necessarily better than nickel, unless you have some very long cable runs (or are looking at an oscilloscope). Your best bet is to match the metal on the connector on the TV itself. Basic electrical principles tell you that like metals will always make a better connection than unlike ones.
With regard to HD signals, digital is a different world from analogue, when it comes to signal loss. Analogue signals degrade over distance, and will provide some image even if you are below the optimal threshold. Consider being able to pick up a radio station from several hundred miles away... It may have alot of static, but it is still there. Digital signals require a signal above the threshold to function, so if the signal drops below a distance limit, you get nothing. That is why your satellite TV goes out during periods of extreme weather rather than just delivering a snowy picture. The same is true for the signal between your Blu Ray DVD player and your HDTV. If You can see a picture, you are above the threshold, and a "better" cable will likely make no discernible difference. Just determine your connection in order of quality.... HDMI is better than YPbPr (Component Video), and these are the only true HD connection types readily available today. DVI-D is the same, and interchangeable with HDMI with a simple adapter. You may have some may have some issues with HDCP using an older set with DVI-D and not HMDI, but that is another issue.
All in all, don't buy the expensive cables that the sales person tells you are "the best" ones out there, as they are only "the best" source of revenue for him. Those thicker brand M cables are typically nothing more than a few extra layers of rubber on the same conductor used by everyone else. At the same time, don't necessarily buy the cheapest cables either, as these are sometimes very flimsy and won't last for repeated use. Buy the least expensive ones with a quality construction and solid feel. Ask to see one out of the package... If they won't do it, go somewhere that will.
Yes!
by oracle741 - 6/9/07 5:42 AM In reply to: Cables = Profit by davdunlapVery well said.
Cables = Profit
by rolltide57 - 6/9/07 9:42 AM In reply to: Cables = Profit by davdunlapGood answer. I am a supervisor for an a/v production outlet and I agree, a descent priced cable (hdmi etc.) can give you descent results. I've used monster cables and I have used other brands as well. If there is a difference then I can't see it. I'm running a 1080i LCD screen and I am completely satisfied with the results I get from the off brand hdmi cable going from the Yamaha receiver to the display and this includes the picture from the Toshiba HD-DVD player. Great stuff!!
"M"cables
by bryankean - 6/10/07 6:23 PM In reply to: Cables = Profit by davdunlapCareful. If you're referring to the more expensive M cables from Monster cable (and I'm otherwise NOT a big fan of that brand), the potentially significant difference may be SILVER in the conductor, such as the S-video M cables from Monster I own. Do the ones you're talking about contain silver? If so, wouldn't that imply that for the same length of cable there is a lower % of signal loss?
CABLES = RIDICULOUS RIP-OFF
by AVB5 - 6/11/07 10:43 AM In reply to: Cables = Profit by davdunlapHOO-RAH FINALLY A SENSIBLE ANSWER,
CABLES THAT ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR CABLE COPANIES (RG-6) ARE GOOD ENUFF,
RF QUALITY IS DETERMINED BY COPPER SIZE AND DIELECTRIC QUALITY (THE WHITE PLASTIC BETWEEN CENTER CONNECTOR AND THE BRAIDED EXTERIOR, COPPER IS BETTER BUT ALUMINUM OUTSIDE WORKS OK AS LONG AS IT STAY DRY, THE AUDIO COPPER QUALITY IS DETERMINED BY HOW(WHAT GUAGE ERGO 14-16 GAGE CONNECTOR) THE THICKER THE CABLE THE MORE POWER, AND THIS "USUALLY" ONLY HAS AN EFFECT AT LOWER AUDIO FREQENCIES AS IT TAKES MORE POWER TO MOVE THE SPEAKER MATERIALS AT 25 HERTZ THAN IT DOES AT 1000 HZ.
CHEAPER IS NOT BETTER, BUT "MONSTER-ous" PRICES ARE JUST DUMB.
mODERATE LOWER PRICES WORKS FINE, BUY BETTER SPEAKERS WITH BETTER ENCLOSURES, AND GOOD CONNECTORS,,, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, BUT WISDOM IS PROPER USE OF THAT KNOWLEDGE= POWER SQUARED .
GOOD SYSTEMS ARE USUALLY EQUAL TO EXPENSIVE SYSTEMS, A FEW EXCEPTIONS,
BUT NOT MANY FOR HOME, IF IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT PRICE IS NO OBJECT, "BUILD AN ENTERTAINMENT ROOM WITH SOUND PROOF WALLS, SOUND ABSORBING WALLS AND FLOORS, POWER PROTECTION UPS SYSTEMS, AND USE YOUR BRAIN BEFORE ENGAGING YOUR CHECKBOOK"
AB W/ 40+YEARS OF ELCTRONICS EXPERIENCE INCLUDING MILITARY AND COMMERCIAL LISCENE ( RADIOTELEPHONE LICENSE WHEN THEY MEANT SOMETHING)
Cables -- ridiculous rip-off?
by agb100 - 6/11/07 11:44 AM In reply to: CABLES = RIDICULOUS RIP-OFF by AVB5Cables good enough for cable companies -- mostly fiber-optical from cable amplifier to your home terminal -- are not good enough for connections between DVD player, set top boxes, and your video displays, no matter what you assert AVB5. They don't serve the same purpose, they don't have the same specs (and neither do the components have the same source and load impedances the latter connect to), optical cable is not digital cable, and digital cable is not audio cable and should not be used as such (vide HDMI). AVB5, your answer is hardly sensible even if you think otherwise and it appears that you have an opinion but no information and certainly no knowledge, squared or otherwise, copper size will change at least three, if not many more electrical characteristics (and you should have learned that in engineering school), so will weave and length, staying dry has nothing to do with it, your credentials are meaningless if you have forgotten what you learned and continue to ignore the immutable laws of physics.
I know, if YOU can't hear/see it, it doesn't exist.
Cables -- ridiculous rip-off?
by agb100 - 6/11/07 11:44 AM In reply to: CABLES = RIDICULOUS RIP-OFF by AVB5Cables good enough for cable companies -- mostly fiber-optical from cable amplifier to your home terminal -- are not good enough for connections between DVD player, set top boxes, and your video displays, no matter what you assert AVB5. They don't serve the same purpose, they don't have the same specs (and neither do the components have the same source and load impedances the latter connect to), optical cable is not digital cable, and digital cable is not audio cable and should not be used as such (vide HDMI). AVB5, your answer is hardly sensible even if you think otherwise and it appears that you have an opinion but no information and certainly no knowledge, squared or otherwise, copper size will change at least three, if not many more electrical characteristics (and you should have learned that in engineering school), so will weave and length, staying dry has nothing to do with it, your credentials are meaningless if you have forgotten what you learned and continue to ignore the immutable laws of physics.
I know, if YOU can't hear/see it, it doesn't exist.
HDTV
by L.3 - 6/2/07 6:42 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
If you are buying a HDTV be sure it has at least one HDMI plugin. Be sure to spend the extra $70.00 to $100.00 on a HDMI cable because it is as different as night and day. You already spent good money so don't blow it with cheep cables. Also get a copy of "Toy Story" and use the set-up to tune your new HDTV. You can also go on line and get set-up DVD's for tuning your picture.
Save your money
by jimafm - 6/2/07 6:46 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I've been building sound systems of all types for over 40 years, including many for top musical performers and Disney. It seems like this question never goes away, but here's what I know from experience: Save your money.
Use large enough gauge speaker wire to get the job done. Low oxygen copper is some better, so a good, 16 gauge wire designed for speakers is best. I'm talking about home theaters with $500 a piece speakers and up, here. Unless you have some really good speakers, however, 16 gauge lamp cord from the hardware store will do. Using a larger size makes no difference you can hear, so don't bother. Larger gauge wire will have a little less power loss, but your amp has plenty of power to spare unless you have to run it wide open to get loud enough.
As for audio hookup cables, I've tested everything from cheapies to sterling silver wire with gold plated connectors. You want one that has good, reliable connectors and decent size wire, but beyond that it's just not going to matter. A $15 hookup cable is going to "sound" just like a $100 one. That is to say, we can't hear the difference in A/B blind tests using a dozen experienced engineers and musicians. Fiber optical cable is always the best way to go if the equipment has that capability. Even though these cables range from a few dollars to over a hundred, they all produce the same results. The principal difference is in the strength of the outer jacket and connectors. If you're hooking up a home theater and it's just going to sit there on a shelf, most any F.O. cable will do.
Video cables get a little more complicated, however. Size matters. You need a real, coaxial cable whether you are using component ("RGB") or composite (the yellow jack). You can spot real coax because it's only a little smaller than the coaxial cable from the wall to your cable box or satellite receiver.
HDMI is the new, "one size fits all" attempt at the home theater version of a computer's USB cable. It will someday allow two-way communication between the various components in a system, but we just aren't there yet with the components or the protocol. The standard keeps changing, and some reputable manufacturers have stopped putting these on their equipment because of this. HDMI is more about the convenience of a single cable to carry both audio and hi def video than any real improvement in quality, and the cost is high. I'd stick with component video and fiber optics for now.
Consider this. The hardest thing is to change energy from one form to another. Since virtually all audio and video is now digital, the only real challenge is to convert the signal into something we can see or hear. Spend your money on the very best video display and loudspeakers you can afford, and don't get all hung up over a bunch of wire that nobody's even going to see if you install it correctly.
AMEN, Brother!!
by larrythecomputerguy - 6/8/07 9:50 PM In reply to: Save your money by jimafmHaving been "in" audio (and now computers) for MANY years, this cable issue does seem to come around every few years (corresponding to the "newest" audio/video technology "improvements")...It matters a LOT LESS than the typical Sales person would have you believe!!! I've always lived by "percieved improvement", as has been pointed out by some others in this thread...If you can't see or hear a difference, DON'T SPEND THE $$$ on "designer" cables!! Get decent quality, gold-flashed connector-equipped cables no longer than you need, and spend you money on decent SOURCE MATERIAL to appreciate you system!!! Maybe the "included for free" cables that came with your system aren't great, but spending more than $50 on ANY cable seems excessive to me! When installing my "built-in" system in our new house, I bought a set of "quality" cables from MCM Electronics (many "brand-name" or manufactured by same brand-name companies) and they've been fine for a number of years. Similarly, speaker wire--yes, I have used 14 or even 12 gauge "zip cord" with a decent outer insulating covering, and have NEVER had a failure in this area! Yes, gold plated connectors help, as does soldering on connectors (OK...use silver-based solder), but, again, don't spend a fortune on "name" cables or connectors...you probably won't notice an audible/visible difference!
My hearing and eyesight used to be sharper, but even in my 20's I realized the difference between quality and hype...
Someday is here!
by Hi-def Jeff - 6/9/07 10:07 AM In reply to: Save your money by jimafm"It will someday allow two-way communication between the various components in a system, but..."
HDMI is my first choice for HDTV because of its two-way communication, not because of picture quality. (Some see a difference between component cable vs. HDMI, some don't...)
I have found that the operation of systems with HDMI is "trouble free" with regards to formatting. With HDMI, the components work together much better than with analog (component) cables. You, the user, will need to add your input to choose formatting when you change channels or sources.
As far as how much to spend, the only downside is if you choose to purchase the Monster cable, be careful not to damage the connections on your equipment (as you damage your wallet), as they are oversize and inflexible and are known to damage the connection in some cases. There will be no upside to the Monster cable.
Use HDMI, don't spend too much!
added cabling
by whitts - 6/2/07 6:47 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Derek, from my experience your immediate response was the correct one. Companies manufacturing these goods have a vested interested in you. If you like their goods & they want you to be a satisfied customer, they will provide the best leads that there are. If you are satisfied this time around, then that is what they want, as you are more likely to come back again. The shop assistant is only interested in his commission for selling items which are not really rquired. Yours Aye, Roy
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