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Community Newsletter: Q&A: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables
- 6/15/07 6:51 AM
Used to be
by DaveMC2007 - 6/2/07 11:42 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Back in the old days when analog connections were prone to RFI (Radio Frequency Interference)and other sources for line noise, there was some small justification for the "heavy duty" or premium cables. Most of the time, it was overkill, but in some cases it was not.
Today we are talking about digital signals. They are not subject to the same interference problems. The $100 cable is not going to enhance anything beyond the vendor bank account.
Some things such as dual link DVID vs. single link can make a difference. They are both, however, $35 cables. There is no case of distance degredation of signal strengths for the typical entertainment setup. It's digital. A decent electrical contact on the connectors is all that is needed. Gold contacts are a nice touch, but still tend to be overkill.
Perhaps if one had a situation of a 200+ foot run to make, there could be some consideration for cable quality, but not that much to go to the heavy duty double shielded style cables. It just isn't needed. Save the cable money and spend it on higher quality components, such as a better display.
The Digital Dilema - Confusing Cable Contoversy
by Hi-def Jeff - 6/2/07 12:01 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Derek,
Your question is a very important question to the subject of HDTV. It is also one of the areas where the greatest controversy exists, partly due to education, or lack thereof, and partly due to sales commissions.
For HDTV the "right" cables are of utmost importance, but you don't have to spend a lot to get the "WOW" of HDTV!
First, if you only expect to watch FREE HD from an OTA antenna (your regular old attic antenna or rabbit ears) you won't need any cables except the coaxial cable from the antenna to the TV.
Next, if you want to view HDTV from an external source (Satellite receiver, cable box, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, gaming system) you MUST use either HDMI (digital) or component (analog) cables. These cables are the ONLY choices to watch HDTV. The difference in picture quality between the two is small and sometimes not noticeable. Some prefer component, some HDMI. (HDMI also digitally transfers audio while components require additional cables to transfer the audio. Red and white RCA cables or digital audio cable - I usually use RCA.)
That being said, the best choice is HDMI. Why? Simply put, the HDMI cable allows for two way communication between your digital TV and your digital HD source. What this does is to allow the two to agree together what is the best way to present the picture (format/resolution) on the screen. Component cables don't allow this communication and require the user to get involved with additional settings or formatting.
Here is where the controversy begins. At the heart of the cable controversy are salesmen who play on the old saying "You get what you pay for...", and while trying to increase the amount of the sale, attempt to get you to buy Monster cables. The truth is that there is an exception to every rule and you don't always get what you pay for.
Monster cables are the very expensive cables pushed by the big box stores. Concerning HDTV, avoid them. They are known to create problems, not solve them. They are known to damage the HDMI input on your devices, and cost several times what others do. (NOTE: If you are using satellite to get HD, use quality surge protection but avoid Monster as they sometimes interfere with the function of satellite receivers as the receivers attempt to "backfeed" differing voltages to the satellite.)
In the video arena, most cables are created "equal". In the audio arena, there seems to be benefit to purchasing better quality, higher priced cables.
I am an independent HDTV consultant and have no stake in your purchase. I didn't buy one cable and have a problem...I have learned this from dealing with 100's of HDTVs. I have replaced or bypassed Monster video/power products many times to resolve issues while performing service calls on HDTV systems.
I hope this will help many to "see the light" in the form of awesome "WOW!" HDTV while reducing cost and confusion. For additional information, self-help, setup, and resources, visit http://www.wowvision.tv
Sincerely,
Hi Def Jeff
WOWVision!
HDTV cables and connections
by iamezinlv - 6/2/07 12:11 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Generally speaking, Derek, there is a difference in quality and performance. However, from my personal experience, I would say the difference for the majority of people will hardly be noticeable. If at all. As far as analog vs digital, I say go with digital. If anything, just for the convenience factor. After spending big $$$ for cables, perhaps you will try very hard to see and/or hear the upgrade the salesperson suggest exists. Also, there quite often seems to be that ego thing. Don't you know someone who's always going on about how they spent this huge sum for(insert well known or esoteric brand name)a this or that. I do.
Perhaps you can see your friends' systems and what they are using to get an idea. Anyways, the best thing you can do, is to buy the correct cables for your application and hook them up properly.
It's your hard earned dollars. Spend wisely and to your comfort level.
The short answer is... yes
by climber109 - 6/2/07 12:22 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
First of all, it depends whether you are using an analog connection (ie. composite, "yellow cable", s-video, component, vga, ect.) or digital connection (ie. DVI, HDMI, ect). Since this is an HDTV, I am guessing that you are using a digital HDMI connection. The short answer is... yes. The $15 cable will work just as well as the $100 cable. As long as you are running less than about 6 or 7 meters, there will be very little to no difference between the cheap and expensive cables. If you are running more than 6 or 7 meters, then you should get a decent, moderatly priced cable. The $100-$200 monster cable is unnecessary, however, you should not get the cheapest cable available for this length.
Analog cables are slightly different. With analog cables, a more expensive cable MIGHT give you a more clear picture. At up to about 5 meters, the $15 dollar cable should be fine, however at more than 5 meters, a higher quality cable is recommended. Again, when I say higher quality, I don't mean $150 monster cable. I just mean not the super value cheap cable. The quality of analog cables makes more of a difference than the quality of digital cables, however there is still little difference in short lengths.
Overall, if given the choice between the $15 cable and the $100 cable, I would choose the $15 cable. If you are running the cable over a long distance, I would get something in between. I would NEVER get the $100-$200 monster cable. I hope this explanation clears up any questions you had about cable quality.
Type of cable depends on...
by jturner1970 - 6/2/07 1:53 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
A. What kind of box is being plugged in to the TV to give you a HD signal. These boxes range from nothing at all AS REGULAR COAX CABLE LABELED RJ45 WILL CARRY AN HD SIGNAL, you know, the good ole cable-screw in the back of the tv; to the latest video gadgets such as the new HD-DVD players (high definition - digital video disc), HD Satellite and Cable Company Receivers, computer graphics cards with HD outputs, Xboxs, Playstation 3s, etc... Read on.
HD = a broadcast television term used by Congress to define a level of picture quality that new tvs must be able to decode without any additional box or hook up needed besides RABBIT EARS. By law, a tv can only be called HD if it displays ATLEAST 720 horizontal lines to make the tv picture. Ever ready to give you a more expensive choice, the industry one upped Congress and offers 1080 lines of horizontal resolution, which IS useful for large screens (by opinon 42"-50" or bigger) but of course, more $$$. Again, the first way to cable HD is with a good ole antenna with rj45 cable in the wall (or under the house, no big $$$ buy any means) screwed into the back of a new HD TV. Thats it. HD is 720 or 1080. If you see a "p" or "i" beside the number, don't be bothered or steered. Just look at the picture quality before buying, although 1080p will be for the next generation the top standard so probably worth the money and bigger 1080ps are coming down if you wait until this Christmas... Ask your salesman what the "i" and the "p" mean. Then ask another somewhere else... funny...
***Never buy an HD tv because of its bright shiny picture! ALWAYS PREVIEW THE IMAGE IN THE STORE WHILE WATCHING A 10 OR 15 MINUTE SCENE of LOW LIGHT WITH LOTS OF BLACKS AND SHADOWS. Harry Potter movies are great screen testers. Insist the store hook up the tv to an HD source showing one. If they won't, go somewhere that will, as you will see a huge difference in the quality of low light scenes between different tvs. Ask the sales rep to hit the "auto-picture" or "movie" preset on the remote, to avoid any store tinkering in image to sell one tv over another.
Oh, wait, thats right, the "industry" has developed some expensive other ways to display HD. HMM...
DVI Cable: video only, digitaly encoded signal, expensive to run/switch. Supposedly better because digital signal is never broken down then reassembled between box source and tv display. OKAY... but keep in mind the signal isn't telemetry from the Hubble Space Telescope, it is video bits. The industry, though, will convince you that I am an idiot and that the miniscule if any difference in quality is worth the $$$$$. Plus, with digital signals, the industry can encrypt programs in the signal that may let them manipulate you even more...
HDMI: same as DVI, but with surround audio built in, so jack is bigger. And with the same fault as above.
Both HDMI and DVI are expensive in long lengths, very expensive to "switch" (one cable goes from your pc or other box to a switch to say, 3 different rooms - $$$$$$$$$) AND either cable is required for the industry's 1080 upgrade. Hmm...
The "yellow RCA" aka "composite" (one cable "composes" several different picture signals) okay for vcrs, dvd players, or video games for young players. USELESS FOR ANYTHING ELSE. Incapable of passing all the info needed with todays complex signals. It will try, with poor picture as the result.
"S" and "SuperS" cable are a little better than yellow with the old standard, but not HD. Going, going, GONE! Plus, the physical connectors of this cable are very flimsy.
"Component" cable with three diffrent pins hanging off the end, each pin being a component of a standard 720 signal (or dvd, or video game). Some of these cables will also have seperate connections for audio too, be it a fiber optic cable (never bend sharply) or a pair of white and red stereo ends. COMPONENT IS MY FAVORITE. SHOWS STANDARD 720 WONDERFULLY. CHEAP TO SWITCH. NO SECRET ENCRYPTED CODES FROM THE INDUSTRY!
Of course the industry knows this. Look for component video AND standard coax screw connector TO DISAPPEAR FROM TVS, forcing us into the brave new world of digitaly tracking and manipulating everything we watch, listen to, download, etc... using their more expensive cables... to find more ways to bill us. Over the air? Still free, but without a coax screw-on jack on the TV, how will you hook it up???????........ They've got it all figured out.
One more thing!
Do you really think "gold plate" on a pin will help picture quality. Yeah, if you are watching while submerged in a sub or perhaps being launched into space. In your living room? VERY LITTLE. On consumer grade pins, even the "monstrously" priced won't have enough gold to interest a Leprechan. Gold tipped fiber optic cables? The OPTICAL connection ISN'T ELECTRICAL! Don't wast money on over priced gimmicks. Regular connectors are fine, and can be made brand new over and over again by erasing away any dust, grime, or discoloration. Literally. A pencil eraser is the home theater buff's best friend. Won't damage any connectors (unless you are using too much physical foce on sensitive computer type connections) but will pull almost any type of environmental build up off of them. Great for "can't read" memory cards as well as battery terminals in today's handheld gadgets.
B. (thought it wasn't there huh..) LENGTH needed! If you are installing your HD source (whatever type it may be) more than six to eight feet from the TV, paying extra for "braided" cables is generally worth the money. Braided wire is easier to loop around, through, beneath, inside of, the various nooks and crannies of installation.
Wait, you may want to read this:
HDMI and DVI are good ways to transmit digital data, and the industry has a right to protect the media it has spent millions to create from would be pirates and criminals (lord of the rings was a right kindly gift, several hundred million to produce - yea it made alot more, but only AFTER the millions were risked in production.) We just need to make sure in turn that OUR privacy as consumers in a free market isn't PIRATED BY THE INDUSTRY with abusive "user agreements" to have access to HD programming Congressionaly mandated in the first place.
I hope the time you spent reading this was in your opinion "worth it"
type of cable depends on... small edit from author
by jturner1970 - 6/2/07 10:52 PM In reply to: Type of cable depends on... by jturner1970I referred to coax cable used for simple antenna and cable companys as "RJ45" when in fact I was referring to RG6 coax cable. I think RJ45 might have been the name of the element used to power the Fiery Phoinex on Battle of the Planets... No, rj45 was actually a cable we whipped up for helicopters during Gulf I. The j referred to a type of sand/abrasion resistant jack with a liquid melt boot over the twist to lock plug that without the boot mod, really got gritted up by sand swirled with air. Now go win a million dollars!
Cable connections
by jmp010948 - 6/2/07 2:16 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
The question as to whether cables can make a difference is a resounding yes. Cheap cables are terminated with low grade connectors such as tin plated brass. When brand new you might not be able to see a difference. After a time, however, the cheaper connectors will develop a microscopic layer of oxidation and form low ohm bridges. A premium brand such as Monster cable will be a higher grade of brass and gold plated to prevent oxidation. Your signal is dependent on a solid clean contact between metal to metal. If the connector goes in or pulls out too easily, alarm bells should go off. Remember though, the worlds best connection will still give some loss. Every time you go through a splice, splitter, or switch connection the loss is cumulative. As I said, when brand new you will see little difference, but a year or two from now you will be either cursing your cheap cables or glad you spent a little extra on high grade connectors and cables. One other thing to remember, energy only travels on the surface of a conductor. Stranded center conductor will carry energy more efficiently than solid core, and the more strands the better. My advice spend the money for the better cables and throw away those cheap cables that come with most gadgets.
HDTV cables
by mmm062 - 6/2/07 2:51 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
When dealing with HDTV cables, the markup by top-of-the-line manufactures is incredible, considering the difference between the $20.00 HDMI and the $200.00 HDMI versions. They are made identical except for the outer sleeve and packaging. Larger and more relevant differences are apparent when dealing with audio cabling.
Check out the link: http://www.mycablemart.com/features/hdmi_cables_q_and_a.php
Read up on what the experts say about your actual requirements and ignore what large companies are trying to sell you. I am not affiliated with any of these guys, so I am not promoting them, but the website does present a good arguement.
Cables are not made the same, nor do they perform the same
by agb100 - 6/3/07 6:17 PM In reply to: HDTV cables by mmm062It is a folly to think that either video or audio cables perform alike, one to the other. Not only do the cable terminating impedances determine the cable's actually meeting its specs, but meeting the specs is only the first step. Just because one cannot afford the better cable is no reason to assert that a technically superior cable is the same as your Radio Shack cable. It is not and it never will be.
Many, if not most, HDMI cables either do not meet spec, or will fail to meet spec over time for various reasons, some of which were mentioned in this post. HDMI are computer cables. While digital TV uses computer technology, it is a far more complex device and technology than that used by PCs. HDMI is a cable intended to communicate both ways, uses a "handshake" -- and that is why it often fails to perform. Moreover, once you enter the analogue domain for audio, HDMI is not a poor choice. It is an unacceptable choice. It is a computer cable that you are using for audio, where an entirely different set of circumstances and requirements come into play. HDMI, in other words, is a real world compromise "invented" for the LCD (no, not liquid crystal display, but lowest common denominator...I speak for the masses who buy down market consumer goods sold at Cosco. In other words, appliances like washing machines.)
And that is exactly how this technology is sold these days.
It is a fantasy to think that decent video or audio can be had with HDMI, optical, coaxial, S-video...in other words, on the cheap. The best is never cheap, the better is only more expensive than the common. And no, digits are not just digits. There is time too. Change the time and you have changed the signal. This fact applies to both analogue and digital signals.
High performance will always cost far more than the bottom of the pyramid, the widest body of audience, will pay for.
Most installers and technicians who work in the cable/satellite industry deal with 99.99% common users, just like most car mechanics repair Fords, Chevies, Toyotas, and not F-1 racers.
Let me be blunt. Optical and coaxial are unusable for good audio. DVI and HDMI are acceptable for good video, but are not the best for high quality systems. Very high quality component video and very high quality audio cables and interconnects are vital to good audio and the best video reproduction. There is no way to get around it.
Lastly, the brands most often mentioned in this chat room border on below marginal performance, except the one I mentioned in my earlier post...and there are others of high quality available for those willing to look into the matter.
I've tried the best, and here's my experience
by jskrenes - 6/2/07 7:45 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Derek,
I used to work at RadioShack, and when I worked there I had an extremely generous discount on Monster cables, so I "Monsterized" my albeit modest home theater system. After adding on a few other components, I bought a few RadioShack Gold Series cables (the best they offered until they started dealing Monster), and one of my video inputs on my TV shorted out and the weight of the Monster cable caused my video input to go out and I had to use a cheap out-of-the-box video cable. So I've used the cheapest, the middle-of-the-road, and the best of the best, and here are the results:
The three things that made the most noticeable improvements were my Monster surge protector, subwoofer cable and speaker cables. There was a modest difference in video quality between the el cheapo composite video cable and the Monster one, but since the Monster cable isn't agreeing with my TV, out it goes (or rather, it goes into the junk drawer until it's needed). For standard audio cables and analog video, there was little difference between a set of $15-20 RadioShack Gold Series and the $30-100 Monsters. And in my experience, high-quality analog cables make a bigger difference than high-quality digital cables. Ign.com's Nintendo Wii website compared Monster's $60 component video cable to Nintendo's $20 cable and an off-market $10 component cable, and they found no appreciable difference.
So what's the verdict for you? I would recommend getting a good surge protector, the best speaker cables you can afford that will work with your system (some Monster speaker cables are so well-insulated and wrapped in nylon jackets and such that they are hard to bend around your home entertainment system and other furniture, and you might want to get some thinner ones if you need to run them to the rear of the room for your rear surround, or you may need cables ready for in-wall threading), and a decent subwoofer cable. For other cables, go as cheap as you can for mid-grade quality. I just outfitted my church's video system with 100-ft cables from abccable.com, and I noticed they had HDMI cables that would be $30 or more at Walmart or RadioShack on sale for $8.95. Plus, they threw in a few bags of Skittles in the shipping box. And all that extra double-shielded nitrogen-injected stuff on Monster cables makes very little difference.
So, splurge on the speaker cables, subwoofer cables, and power supply system, and go modest on everything else. With websites like ebay, abccables.com and froogle.com, there is no reason why you should have to drop big bucks on any of your cables.
I've tried the "best"
by agb100 - 6/4/07 12:59 PM In reply to: I've tried the best, and here's my experience by jskrenesThat was an interesting post. You my friend, may be alone in finding the best of the best at Radio Shack. Let me put it another way. Does Wall Mart sell the best goods? Is a Timex the best of the best among wristwatches? Does Cartier and Tiffany sell Timex watches?
Monster Cable make fine cables for the mass market and they are priced accordingly. I highly respect Noel Lee, the head of Monster for probably being the best businessman in the audio/video business.
When you enter Mr. Lees garage, you may see Ferraris, Maserattis, Lamborghinis and Aston-Martins sitting side-by-side, a reminder of his business acumen. These cars have nothing to do with the quality of Monster Cable designs. They have a lot to do with Monster Cable sales. They also point to the fact that people who have tried and used Monster Cable will continue to try new designs and use them again. And tell their friends to buy Monster Cable.
Mr. Lee will gladly make the distinction between good, the best, and the best of the best. He will not tell you that a Ford and a Chevy even approaches any of those categories.
If you worked for one of the big box stores and sold a lot of Monster Cable, Mr. Lee may allow you to drive one of his best of the best cars.
Now it is up to you to realize that Radio Shack does not sell anything that approaches good, better, best, or best of the best.
For those items you'll need to go to the specialty high end dealers, pay through the nose, and enjoy a level of sound and video reproduction you have not even dreamed of.
That quality of home theater experience is simply not available at Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City or PC Richards and discussing Monster Cable vs. other cheap audio cables is alike discussing the merits of different hamburgers when there are great steak houses around the corner.
Cheaper cables doesn't mean lower quality cables!!!
by justfitz - 6/2/07 8:40 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
1) In the case of cables that use a digital signal (HDMI, DVI) the human eye cannot notice the difference between a $200 Monster Cable and a generic cable that can be bought online for a fraction of the cost. Personally, I use a 6 ft. HDMI cable I bought from monoprice.com for $6.00 (Its currently only $4.79!) and works perfectly. My neighbor unfortunately was talked into buying an expensive Monster HDMI Cable when purchasing his HDTV, which is a Sony SXRD KDS-R60XBR2. So we tested out both cables by watching "Tears of the Sun" on Blu-Ray and there was absolutely no difference visuals (his TV is ISF Calibrated by a professional) or audio (7.1 surround, LPCM). Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, because the only way they can be right is if Monster has found a way to defy Physics, which they haven't!
2) In the case of analog cables the extra sheilding etc. that Monster and other cable companies brag about do make legitimate gains in signal performance, but nonetheless if your buying a monster cable from a brick and mortar store (Best Buy, Circuit City etc.) your still paying TOO MUCH!!! I've skimmed CNET on this issue and didn't dig up much info, so in order to explain what I mean we'll take a look at the HDTV Q&A at IGN.com written by Gerry Block, who wrote a little piece on this topic in one his HDTV Q&A features titled "How not to get ripped off buying home theater cabling." In this little rant Gerry recalls how much cables cost once his employee discount kicked in while working at Best Buy and states, "I picked up a 50-foot spool of CAT 5 cabling, originally price at $54.99, for $2.49. $30 S-Video wires fall to $1.50. It's rather impressive." Proving that CABLES ARE OVERPRICED IN GENERAL from brick and mortar stores, regardless of quality gains!
Link to the HDTV Q&A explaining "How not to get ripped off buying home theater cabling" at IGN.com:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/770/770456p1.html
Expensive cables
by Luhng - 6/15/07 8:09 PM In reply to: Cheaper cables doesn't mean lower quality cables!!! by justfitzI've tried low to high end cables with state of the art equipment and my experience is this:
Once I get past good standard cables (and I don't even mean as far as Monster Cable standard) I pick the one that looks the nicest.
I can afford a high end cable but experience doesn't let me kid myself that pumping money into a high end cable is going to make any difference.
If you think they do make a difference and you are happy, good, but next time you buy one get the thick purple one and see if you can hear any difference from the thiner see through one.
The good thing about high end cables, and it's why they sell, is that everyone hears the difference and are prepared to tell their friends (it's a lot better than the embarrassment of admitting they've been taken for a ride, and when I started out I was taken).
High end cable manufacturers know it's a sales game physics knows it pointless exercise.
Buying HDTV
by alfban - 6/2/07 9:39 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
When a saleman ask you if you have a good connection, he/she might be looking for cable or satellite source for your entertainment. The reason being is that you're just wasting your money on a high end receiver with a crappy source of provider. You might also be thinking about your audio system...is it an AC5 or AC3 which basically tells you if you're planning to have a sorround sound for your gaming or movie watching. Most HDTV are now capable of providing you with great sound and realistic pictures these days but your cant really get all that digital potential if your source are nowhere near your expected results. Good hunting!
High Definition
by wyliepops - 6/3/07 1:16 AM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
From experience, it makes little difference from using s-video or high definition on a standard tv. However, if you have a high definition monitor or set, it does payoff to use the best possible connection. You can really hear the difference between an (analog) rca connection and a fiber optic (digital) audio connection. The same holds true for video, but only if you have the equipment capable of hi-def display.
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