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Community Newsletter: Q&A: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables
- 6/15/07 6:51 AM
Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables
by Lee Koo (ADMIN) - 6/15/07 6:51 AM
Question:
Alright, so I've been trying to become involved in the high-definition era for a few years now. As far as I'm concerned, picking the right cables can be controversial. Whenever you go buy a new HDTV or an accessory component, the salesmen always ask if you have the appropriate connections. Then they always ask if you have "the best" connections that will provide the optimal picture and sound. So is there? Is a $15 cable going to provide equivalent performance to a $100 cable of the same type? And does this question have a different answer for analog and digital cables? I'd love to get the facts straight once and for all. Thanks!
--Submitted by Derek M.
Answer voted most helpful by our members:
HDTV Cabling
Cables and connections for stereo, HDTV, or any electronic media can be compared to hoses for moving water around your house. If you have a pump that will deliver 50 gallons of water per minute and you need to deliver 75 gallons per minute to some plants or a fountain--sorry, it will deliver 50 gallons max and your fountain will not chirp merrily, it will just slog along.
Cables have a maximum delivery capability and if you don't meet or exceed that your media will suffer. But on the same line of thought, if your plumbing will deliver 200 gallons of water and your pump will supply 100, you have wasted a lot of capability (which you paid for and will never get). Same with some of the monster cables that are around today, they are built to deliver ear shattering amount of wattage to speakers that if you did deliver, would soon reduce your ability to hear it to deafness.
The idea behind HDTV is that they are now sliding more data down the channels, and you can't do that with the old cables (maybe 25 gallon pipes). Same with HD DVD, Blu Ray and all the new things. You need to have a pipe that will deliver the amount that is being sent. You definitely need HDMI or better when using any HD device. You can use the other cabling (component, s-type, etc) but there is a difference. Some things won't even work without the proper cable, like upconversion to an HD set.
As for the price, that is something else entirely. Just because you pay $100 for a hose, doesn't mean it is made to stand the pressure of delivery. It is almost a matter of 'You get what you pay for', but not quite. There are connections at both ends of the hose and there are connections at both ends that belong to the other components, like your TV and the HD DVD. They are just as critical as the cable, they could be below par so that needs to be checked in the buying phase. I will say that buying cable from a reputable source has always made sense (when money is no object). I have however, bought from many different sources and compared and find that workmanship, and a quality product is not guaranteed by price.
What I have done is buy a great cable at a high price (you are going to need many cables by the way) and then bought a few from other sources at reasonable prices and compared them. Most have a return policy anyway, so the ones that didn't perform, I just sent back. Some times the ones that went back were the high priced ones. If you can't see or hear the difference, what are you paying for?
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-10149_102-0.html?forumID=7&threadID=250288&messageID=2504006#2504006
--Submitted by the_shelton
If you have additional opinions, advice, or recommendations for Derek, let's hear them. Click on the "Reply" link to post. Please be detailed as possible in your answer and list all options available. Thanks!
Cable price is not directly proportional to signal quality.
by letmepicyou - 6/1/07 9:14 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Expensive cables are about as necessary as 106 octane racing gas in a Ford Focus. Monster Cable might be sending their "wise guys" to my house to beat on me now, but it's the plain truth. The ONLY time I recommend an expensive cable is if you happen to require one that is shielded, and the only time you need a shielded cable is if you have a source of EMI (electromagnetic interference). At the same time, I don't recommend using "Dollar Store" .99 cent cables as they're typically of poor quality. Just get decent average cables from wal-mart and you can save your money, putting it towards a decent UPS to run your AV equipment off of. Surge protectors don't really protect worth diddly, not to the extent even a lower-priced UPS will. I'd save money on cables and stick with a nice mid-range UPS. It'll protect your equipment WAY more than a power-strip or surge-protector ever could, and filter the incoming power as well.
UPS Protection
by Psyclone - 6/8/07 6:56 PM In reply to: Cable price is not directly proportional to signal quality. by letmepicyouA UPS will presumably protect your equipment from lightning strikes, power surges and power outages, but what provisions do they have in their design to assure you that failure modes of the UPS itself doesn't result in serious damage to your equipment?
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but as a avionics design engineer that has to deal with failure effects, I wonder if a UPS is designed with these considerations in mind.
UPS Output Protection
by MilTech - 6/11/07 9:17 AM In reply to: UPS Protection by PsycloneAn UPS is designed as an inverter supply that completly isolates its output from the mains input. Because of this, the output voltage and waveform is "recreated" to be a precise representation of the input. I have found that the APC UPS typically maintains an output of 120VAC at 60 Hertz (+ or - 0.5 Hertz.) I am quite sure that those distributed in Europe meet the same specifications for 50 Hertz power.
Because the output of an UPS is remanufactured, it is closely monitored. An inverter supply will fail completly if design parameters are not met. This means that the output power just drops. It will not introduce frequency changes or wild fluctions in voltage.
The newer UPS will monitor voltage, frequency, battery condition, temperature, and float voltage for charge circuitry. The battery supply is always "on line" so that the inverter always will see a DC input even if the mains supply only fluctuates. If fluctuations in input voltage are minor, the sensitivity of most UPS may be reduced so that it is not cycling continuously.
I have never encountered damage to equipment connected to a moderatly maintained UPS. I service UPS from building size to 450 Watt personal computer size. Service normally dictates keeping them clean and load testing the batteries after 3 or more years of use.
I hope this answers your question and reduces your fears somewhat.
UPS?
by cmabps - 6/9/07 2:38 PM In reply to: Cable price is not directly proportional to signal quality. by letmepicyouOK, thanks for the advise, but some of us are not electro-gearheads, and UPS mean United Parcel Service. care to clarify?
UPS?
by purpleheathbug - 6/16/07 12:55 PM In reply to: UPS? by cmabpsUPS=Uninterruptable Power Supply
ups devices
by lucerne - 6/16/07 12:43 PM In reply to: Cable price is not directly proportional to signal quality. by letmepicyouam I to understand that a powered ups hub cradles the power frenzies more than a protected power strip ?
Derek ... about cable quality
by Watzman - 6/1/07 9:33 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Derek,
This really should not be difficult at all: In a nutshell, “ultra premium cables” are the snake oil of the consumer electronics business. Nothing more than an attempt to separate you from more of your money.
Go to www.monoprice.com and buy your AV cables there. You will, in some cases, pay less than 10% of what some comparable cables will cost from some other sources. I mean this literally, some of the cables that some outlets and retail stores sell for more than $100 can be bought for $10-$20, with quality that is just as good (including gold plated connectors). Yes, SOME $15 cables are as good as --and in a few cases may even be better than-- SOME $100 cables.
Some other places that I use (I have not found these to be as good as monoprice for AV cables, but they are as good for some other types of cables, including network cables) include:
www.pimfg.com
www.computergate.com
www.stanleysupplyservices.com (used to be Contact East)
I will add that while the “super premium” cables are, in my view, nothing but a scam, there definitely are “junk” cables that you need to avoid. However, paying $100+ for a $10 cable isn’t the way to do it.
By the way, about my qualifications: I’m a degreed Electronics Engineer. I also have a number of computer certifications, including CompTIA A+ and Network+. I teach college courses in computers and networking. I got my amateur radio license in 1963 (at age 13), and my FCC 1st Class commercial license in 1966, and I worked as a radio and TV broadcast engineer while in high school and college. I’ve been in the electronics industry my entire life, and working with all kinds of cables for a long, long time. The rip-off that I see just about daily from the makers of “ginormous” cables offends me no end. It takes all the restraint I can muster when I’m in the “Greatest Purchase” or the “Electronics Metropolis” retail stores not to scream at them when they try to sell a customer an HDMI cable for $100+ (sometimes a very big plus) that can readily be bought online for $15-$20. You have better things to spend your money on than ultra-premium cables which are no better than what you get from the sources that I listed above.
[You might now want to ask how to avoid the real “junk” cables, and I can’t give you a good answer. The problem is that you can’t see the internal construction of a cable. The good news, however, is that excluding analog video, cables that are so badly made that they impact performance (especially without failing totally) are not all that common. As for total failures, although it doesn’t help the inconvenience, the warranty, at least up to a year or so, is a good guide to what you can expect.]
Two other comments:
Analog cables are actually [far] more critical than digital cables, especially for video. A digital video cable (for example HDMI or DVI) generally either works or it doesn’t; the cable generally doesn't (can't, really) degrade the image quality, as long as it’s working. But an analog video cable (say a 15-pin VGA cable) CAN degrade the video quality and cause ringing, ghosting and smearing, and, frankly, a lot (most) of the analog computer video cables are pretty bad. But it’s usually fairly easy to judge these: The diameter of the cable is very nearly directly related to the quality of the cable (the fatter the cable the better ... you want a big, fat cable). So definitely avoid thin, slender cheap feeling cables for analog applications (and note that component video cables are analog, not digital). But, that said, the bandwidth of "old style" [NTSC or SDTV] composite video cables (yellow RCA cables and even S-Video cables) is low enough that in short lengths the quality does not have a big impact. It's another matter, however, for computer video cables (analog VGA) and for HDTV component video cables (although if at all possible, these should be avoided entirely in favor of HDMI or DVI digital video cables).
Also, there is a difference between a cable that is subject to continuous motion (say a headphone or microphone cable as about the worst case) and a cable that, once installed, will just about never be subject to any mechanical motion or stress at all (the cables interconnecting your components from the rear, tucked away way deep in your dusty but otherwise untouched equipment cabinet). I’ll pay a little more for a good headphone extension cord (or, perhaps more relevantly, a good warranty on the cord), because being subject to constant motion and physical strain, it’s physical construction is a bit more relevant. Mechanical construction of many other cables is far less critical; once you install them, they may not be subject to much in the way of mechanical stress.
Still, the AV cables I’ve gotten from monoprice (with whom I have no connection other than as a mail order retail customer) have been top-drawer in quality and bottom drawer in price, and I’ve had no need to even look at other sources.
Regards,
Barry Watzman
Watzman@neo.rr.com
Beautiful Dollar Store Cables
by edge_bit - 6/8/07 7:23 PM In reply to: Derek ... about cable quality by WatzmanI've purchased cables for $2 at the thrift store that were thick in gague and great in tested levels of noise.
The resulting picture and sound is perfect too.
The main thing with audio cables is the gague. If it's huge gague cable, then you're bound to have a positive result, period.
Also, these cables are most likely bulk Chinese imports as I am near Toronto.
$2 CDN == 14.4353 CNY, which pretty much makes sense for the price of a cable. Ah the wonders of the exchange rate. :3
Re: Audio cable guage
by Watzman - 6/9/07 9:51 AM In reply to: Beautiful Dollar Store Cables by edge_bitRe: "The main thing with audio cables is the gague"
Yes but ..... ONLY for speaker cables. Guage is totally irrelevant for low-level high impedance audio cables (most cables connecting various pieces of equipment to each other), but for speakers guage is quite important.
cable quality
by findeis1 - 6/8/07 9:43 PM In reply to: Derek ... about cable quality by WatzmanO.K. heres how i look at it.ive been into anolog music for a long time and my experience is thus.for anolog audio i use medium quality cables.but yes there is a but,keep the quality of the signal in mind.read the specs on the the product your trying to install.good specs spend a little more.bad specs spend a little less.no need to go overboard on a unit you just spent 200 or 300 hundred buck on.if you have bad signal to begin with no matter how much you spend on cables the quality wont change.next keep it real buy what you can afford.with video analog i tend to spend more. the thicker the cable the better its shielded.hope i was of help
Cable quality, etc
by Rosalind Katz - 6/8/07 10:01 PM In reply to: Derek ... about cable quality by WatzmanDerek
When I look at the list of responses to Cnet questions yours is always the one I go to first. I don't always understand all the technical details but I do find your answers to be intelligent, detailed, clear and helpful.
I so appreciate the time and effort you take to help members of this community. Thank you.
Just thought you might be interested in knowing what one Cnet member thinks.
Great answer
by BillR - 6/9/07 5:21 AM In reply to: Derek ... about cable quality by WatzmanI found that the so-called "Premium" cables of digital quality are not always so "Premium". I agree with Watzman on this and I think his answer will cover just about anything one could question on cables. BTW, I do use headphones on my PC a lot and have defected quite a few sets over the years when you have to start "shaking" and "wiggling" the cord to get both channels to play at the same time. Great answer Watzman.
Very Well Said
by shumwaygord - 6/9/07 9:06 PM In reply to: Derek ... about cable quality by WatzmanI agree with everything you said - a new manager at a former employer tried to get me to sell premium cables for all the wrong reasons - he threw all the "Greatest Purchase" (his own former employer) reasons at me and I calmly countered every one of them essentially using your arguments. He gave me the employee of the month award for my "technical knowledge and honesty", but a year later I was in his office being given an exit interview for various minor violations. The bottom line is that after 12 years I was not making the Max for the Office store as far as profit. I will pay for premium gear that is worth the money, but not for equipment sold with half (or less) truths and smoke and mirrors. Bravo for telling it like it is.
Video Cable, beach front property and snake oil salesmen all
by pkipnis - 6/1/07 10:30 PM In reply to: Home audio and video: Premium vs. generic cables by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Not that I wish to deprive electronics dealers of a much needed profit source but I do take exception to the myth that digital sources need special cables. Fact is that the gauge of the cable is more important than if it's oxygen free copper (OFC) or a magical alloy. Digital signals are limited by length due to internal resistance. The IEEE spec for HDMI is 2 meters, DVI 3 meters. This spec takes into account the cable's resistance and connector limitations. Some companies market fancy jacked mega cables but before laying out silver, check the copper gauge. While Audio "experts" claim they can hear the difference between different copper or silver ($$$$) cables, Video signals have too may variables. For longer runs, beyoned 30 feet, go fiber. CAT 5 solutions are quickly becoming affordable for home use, but still expensive unless you're designing it into new construction. I would point out that most of the cables that are packaged with any electronic device (except power cords) should be tossed as they usually are the cheapest that can be had. Finally keeping your AC cables and other RFI/EMI sources as far away from your video and audio sources as possible will do more for you that any "ogre" cable will do.
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