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Car Tech: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars?
- 4/12/07 2:04 PM
That's What I Said
by plcard - 4/30/07 1:33 PM In reply to: You mean.. electric car. by flibjucksonAs I said in an earlier post, we won't have hydrogen cars until Big Oil figures out a way to corner the market on water or better yet, sea water. When they do that, then we will have hydrogen powered cars.
PATinPNS
I do not get this...
by Andy77e - 6/2/07 7:51 PM In reply to: That's What I Said by plcardWhat exactly do you think an Oil company can do? Let's say GM comes out with an electric car in 2009 like they say... what exactly do you think an Oil company can do to GM to stop them from making an Electric car? What about those electric cars in Europe, what have they done to those car companies? Not a thing, so what are you talking about?
This is so simple it's stupid. If there really is a market, and the company can make money on it, they'll sell it. There is nothing that Exxon can do to stop it either.
In down town near here, a company was selling electric cars that you could buy or lease. They closed up because sales were horrible. Not none existant, just really weak. No one wanted a little plug-in 2 seater that had a 60 mile max range.
But it wasn't "big oil" that closed them down, it was the market. People who claim "big oil" this and "big oil" that, are simply ignorant of how a free market works. When there is someone willing to buy, there will be someone willing to sell.
Hydrogen Yes - But When and How Much
by gigabob - 5/30/07 7:49 PM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
Your faith in hydrogen for the masses reminds me of a physics cartoon showing the math to support perpetual motion. Deep in a complex array of Integrals, Sums and other terms is a small bracketed expression "and then a miracle occurs".
Hydrogen fuel cells suffer two technical problems already noted - distribution and storage. As the most rapidly dissapative substance you can't pump it like any other gas down a pipe - it leaks. For storage, you need expensive high pressure tanks or elaborate metal hydride repositories for use on the road.
While not insurmountable problems, commercially viable solutions - despite rising fuel and environmental costs pushes the horizon for volume delivery until about when working fusion plants are demonstrated.
A better option is the home fuel cell, powered by LNG (with solar electric production to augment chillers). This makes each home a mini utility and can be the basis for a hypergranular smart grid that smooths electrc distribution models, paving the way for EV.
Yeah ... what you said..
by plcard - 5/31/07 6:07 AM In reply to: Hydrogen Yes - But When and How Much by gigabobI have no idea what you just said, but it sounded right.... I guess.
The only point I am trying to make is there is something else. We must find that something else if we are to reduce our so-called dependence on foreign oil and stop the usage of this exhaustible fuel.... oil.
I have seen footage for an engine a man in TX made for his welding shop, I believe. He made a hydrogen engine for his use. Now if a man in TX with a welding shop can make a hydrogen engine, and I swear I didn't see anything that resembled what you were talking about, then why oh why cannot his technology be put to use in powering our vehicles. I refer you to YOUTUBE for the news story.
I am not the brightest bulb in the pack, and I am really enjoying this exchange, but use smaller works... 
Patrick
Here it Is!!
by plcard - 6/3/07 4:40 AM In reply to: Hydrogen Yes - But When and How Much by gigabobI mentioned earlier in these discussions I had seen a video where a man made a hydrogen engine. I finally found it. I thought it was in TX, but lo and behold, he is here is FL.
You can find this on www.youtube.com. Here is the URL link. I hope it works. Just think .. out of the garages of America, the spirit still lives. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qc-Ci459kA0.
Patrick
Now that is interesting.
by Andy77e - 6/10/07 3:57 PM In reply to: Here it Is!! by plcardI'm glad I checked this thread. Very interesting technology, but sadly, this isn't a slam dunk.
In fact, I did some research while I wrote this, and discovered some interesting stuff. First, HHO gas has been in existance for over 40 years. This is not new. It's just been re-introduced in a new way. Classic news channel system. Find something that been around forever and everyone forgotten about or doesn't know about, and cast it as "news" again.
The problem here is, once again, water is not the "fuel". Water is like a battery in this case. You take a ton of electricity and cover water into HHO gas. Then, you take the gas and run it in your car.
Here's how physics works. The water has no potential energy. You convert the water into HHO using electricity. HHO has potential energy, but only because you used electricity to make it. Then you extract the energy from HHO gas by running it through your car.
So again the question is how much energy is used. Since the efficiency ratings are not mentioned here, I'll just make my point from theory.
*IF* it takes 10 Kilowatt Hours to convert 4 ounces of water into HHO gas, that right there would cost more money in electricity, than you would spend at the gas station buying gas.
But more than that, how many Kilowatt hours does it take to charge an EV? If an EV uses less power to charge it's batteries than it does to make 4 ounces of HHO, then why would you get HHO over an EV? The EV would use less energy and save you money as well.
I would wager that this is why the car companies have not used this technology even though it's been around for 40 years. I know that electrolysis is very very inefficient. I am willing to place bets that an EV would be more fuel efficient than HHO gas. No one is going to spend $200 a month on electricity to make HHO gas for their cars when they could spend a lot less just fueling at the gas station.
It's Coming
by plcard - 6/11/07 5:05 AM In reply to: Now that is interesting. by Andy77eI did some checking myself, and Honda will be introducing a hydrogen car in 2008. There are also other vehicles available. The problem is obtaining the hydrogen, but they are available with greater gas mileage than gas cars. See this from MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4563676/
It's here. We just need to get the government out of oil, and I'm sorry anyone who doesn't think our government isn't tied to big oil with a rope is living in a dream world. That is not an insult to previous writers, it is the truth! Just check out the lobbyists and see who they represent.
Now we need to get the prices down and make the hydrogen available. I know another cartel, but maybe this will be an American cartel instead of one from the Middle East of Venezuela.
Patrick
I have no doubt
by Andy77e - 6/11/07 9:00 PM In reply to: It's Coming by plcardYou realize he's trying to sell them at $100,000 right? My home was $60K. Who exactly is going to buy a hydrogen car for $100K? Look this is nothing. Anyone can build any car for a billion dollars. You can make a Carbon Fiber Composite car for that much and make it get 100 miles a gallon. But if no one can afford it, who cares?
Did you also notice that it's range drops to 60 miles at highway speed? I do 60 miles in a day real easy. That car would leave me stranded.
The price of fuel and mileage was all vague. Kilo of hydrogen has as much energy as a gallon of fuel. That may be true, but anyone in physics can tell you that doesn't mean it translates into better mileage. They claim you get 2 to 3 times better mileage on hydrogen, but sight no real numbers. At $20 a Kilo, a 250 mile trip would be $104 worth of hydrogen, and $46 worth of gasonline. So not only am I going to pay $100K but I'm going to double my fuel cost. Any takers here?! Sounds like a real winner!
And where do you people come up with this Government big oil garbage. Once again... it called "free market". If a dude wants to sell a hydrogen car, there is NOTHING an oil company can do! I'll go buy some electrodes and a tank and compressor and I'll sell Hydrogen myself! What can they do to stop me? Not a thing!
In fact this government crap is dumb to start with. If oil had control of our government, why would CAFE standards exist? Wouldn't the oil companies want auto to have the worst mileage possible? Why would the Freedom Car crap ever exist? Do oil companies lobby congress? Of course, everyone does! But if you think they have that much control, your blind to how much they've been nailed on. Why can't they drill in ANWR? Why can't they look for oil in Montana? Why can't they open more rigs in the Ocean? Come on, get a clue. Oil companies do not have nearly as much control over government as you think. It's government that wants oil to stay a political foot ball for them to kick around and get gain vote for when they run for election.
You're Kidding Right
by plcard - 6/13/07 5:06 AM In reply to: I have no doubt by Andy77eI promised myself, I wouldn't reply to this anymore, but your comments lend itself to change that thought.
You said: "In fact this government crap is dumb to start with. If oil had control of our government, why would CAFE standards exist? Wouldn't the oil companies want auto to have the worst mileage possible? Why would the Freedom Car crap ever exist? Do oil companies lobby congress? Of course, everyone does! But if you think they have that much control, your blind to how much they've been nailed on. Why can't they drill in ANWR? Why can't they look for oil in Montana? Why can't they open more rigs in the Ocean? Come on, get a clue. Oil companies do not have nearly as much control over government as you think. It's government that wants oil to stay a political foot ball for them to kick around and get gain vote for when they run for election."
Just one question. Where in the hell have you been for ... oh just for the last 6 years not to mention the ones prior? Where were you in 1973 (in the womb probably)? Where have you been that you cannot track the votes in both houses of Congress and see where their loyalty is? I might suggest you sign up for Congress.org. When you do, you will actually see how corporate welfare is running and ruining our country!
I wish now I hadn't stopped taking my blood pressure medication. I really need it right now.
Patrick
You just said nothing.
by Andy77e - 7/2/07 3:44 PM In reply to: You're Kidding Right by plcardYou wrote an entire post that said nothing. Thanks, I learned exactly what your post said... nothing.
Car of the near future
by tenindians - 12/13/08 5:04 PM In reply to: Hydrogen Yes - But When and How Much by gigabobThe shorter term car will not be gas driven or a Hybrid but a TRIBRID consisting of a gas motor with batteries AND a Hydrogen PEM motor to charge the batteries as the car is running. This configuration solves a number of issues currently outstanding in the present.
1. Gas will be a limited resource in the future. Until a complete change of habits of the world's drivers, there will come a time when gas is not a good long term (only) option.
2. Consumers expect a certain range in their cars of at least 300 miles before filling up the tank. Electric cars currently do not have that ability without much large batteries. With a Hydrogen Pem motor to charge the batteries on a constant basis, the life of batteries will still become an issue. The gas motor will only be used with the car is driving long term over 55 mph. City driving will be batteries only.
3. Tank size- with a Gas tank of say 7 gallons instead of 15, the Hydrogen tank would be much smaller than a Hydrogen only car (the Honda Clarity has a huge Hydrogen tank in it).
4. With this setup, Pure Gas only would be only highway and would not be used for getting up to speed. 90 miles per gallon could be the average in a combined city/highway mileage. 7 times 90 is 560 miles per tank. Additional costs would be the Hydrogen. Yes a big if on that price but there is a lot of work being done on Hydrogen creation and distribution.
5. Is the car itself viable to be made? This computer I am writing this on has more memory in it than was in the city of Chicago in 1975. So I have great hopes of Detroit getting their head back on their shoulders and out of their a***s. It they don't, Japan will.
6. Whether you believe in global warming or not, a smaller carbon footprint would still be a good idea. Smog can not be good long term for anybody's health, just ask the Chinese.
I would like to see each house create their own Hydrogen since it should only take an electric outlet, water and some new tech breakthough. I will be watching for that break.
Not ready for prime time
by timmullins - 6/21/07 7:12 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
Hydrogen still has a problem with production. It uses entirely too much energy to make hydrogen fuel, there is no efficiency improvement here at this time. If somebody solves that problem, hydrogen would make an excellent fuel. The environment would certainly agree.
Hydro vs. Elect is based on energy density and refill times
by berational - 6/27/07 12:27 PM In reply to: Not ready for prime time by timmullinsLook, infrastructure is not a real issue. It can always be built. When you look at how much money "leaks" out of our economy to buy oil every month, and consider you could redirect it to build the infrastructure to support an alternative, it is a non issue. Also, you need to consider that if every car were suddenly converted to electric, the U.S. powergrid could not support them anyway, so even with electric you need major infrastructure investment.
The challenge is that gasoline has one of the highest energy densities available to us in a usable and portable form. On top of that, vehicle refill is measured in seconds, not hours. Whether the car is powered by hydrogen generated from nuclear electricity (or directly from the reaction vessel), or direct electrical, hinges on how to best solve the energy density and refill cycle to at least come close to a gasoline powered car. Range becomes less of an issue once you pass 200 miles, as long as the refill time is short. (As I get older, I need to go to the bathroom every 4 hours anyway).
i'd rather pay to have a bunch of U.S. engineers and construction guys designing and building any combo of hydrogen/elect cars, distribution systems etc etc, than sending Billions every day to an unstable region where at least some part of our money gets funneled to terrorists.
efficiency is my issue.
by Andy77e - 7/2/07 5:10 PM In reply to: Hydro vs. Elect is based on energy density and refill times by berationalThis is the key for me. Energy is lost every time it changes forms. This is physics 101.
So in a Hydrogen fuel cell car, you have hydrogen, which is converted into electrical energy, and then used to move the car. Where does the hydrogen come from? The common answer is electrolysis of water.
So we have:
Electricity -> Hydrogen -> Electricity -> Mechanical motion.
Then you have a straight electric vehicle. This is where you take electricity and charge a battery, that then powers the car.
So we have:
Electricity -> Charged Battery -> Electricity -> Mechanical motion.
From here we find that the efficiency from electricity to the motor that makes the car move, will be the same, right? So we'll ignore that.
Now according to the EPA rating on the Rav4 EV, it needed 34 KiloWatt Hours to go 100 miles. So I'll use that as the base.
Now remember you need to buy MORE than 34 kWhs in order to get 34 kWhs from either the battery or Hydrogen, because each time energy changes forms, you lose some. This is the efficiency rate. So which is more efficient?
I was told by someone on this forum, that battery charging efficiency is 85%. For now I'll go with that. At 85% charging efficiency, you would need (rounding up) 40 kWhs to get the 34 kWhs to go 100 miles. That's roughly $4.80 for 100 miles of travel. ($0.12 per kWh)
Now with Hydrogen, Electrolysis is about 66% efficient. But wait, reverse electrolysis, converting the hydrogen back to electricity, is also 66% efficient. This yields an efficiency of 55%. But wait, the hydrogen produced has to be compressed to fit in your cars tank. The compressor uses power, and drops the total efficiency to around 30%.
Thus to get 34 kWhs, you would need to buy 58 kWhs.
Roughly $6.96 per 100 miles. ($0.12 per kWh)
Now both cars will have a limited range, and both would be difficult to refill. Both would likely be refillable from home. An electrolysis hydrogen generator, is not difficult technology. I think if hydrogen cars would become popular, you'd likely get a hydrogen generator just like you'd get a charger for your EV. So the only difference is the cost of fuel and refill time. A hydrogen car could be refilled in 15 minutes, where a battery will take longer.
In my view, I think the parking garages down town would put in charging stations, so your car would charge while you work. A charger is not expensive. You could swipe your card and it would charge you for how much power the battery used, and you'd come out to a fully charged car. Or even put in a ten, and get change back. It would be an ideal commuter car.
ONE BIGGGG PROBLEM
by khgw_mouse - 9/21/07 6:46 AM In reply to: efficiency is my issue. by Andy77eIn your post you were talking about the effciency of Hydrogen (H2) and the effciency is low. But have you resurched HHO witch is NOT hydrogen because it still has the oxygen mocule in it. And with an HHO Gas system attached to a 2.4L 4 Cylnder Manule vheical you avarage 100 miles to that 4oz of water now not only does that HHO gas produce the power to run the car, but it also powers the altanator that produces the energy to covert the water to the HHO gas.
Now the out put from HHO gas is Clean air and water you can create a collection system to collect the water and recycle it.
please respond to this i would love some feed back. (and hopfully its not about my spelling or grammer lol 
thank you)
KHGW Mouse
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