Car Tech: My non-Hybrid Honda Civic got 72 mpg...
wrong agian
by rustystud - 5/28/07 5:39 PM In reply to: Pointless myopic thinking on your part by Skyhawk007Skyhawk007 you are wrong in so many ways
let me elaborate...
The next president of the United States WILL make our country better, unlike your prentincious comment earlier
The rason for this is that Ron Paul is more than twice as popular on american poles than ALL OTHER POLITICIANS COMBINED. That is at least true when they have the balls to list him.
As far as your comments about the "big three" well thats just silly.
Why don't you listen to the know it all and eat your cheeto's on your ass and not worry your little head over all this Pogue 200mpg carberator stuff, It's all nonsence, because X=Y+B, and because I said so, And I know everything.
What thinking have you done yet!
by Andy77e - 5/28/07 5:40 PM In reply to: Pointless myopic thinking on your part by Skyhawk007I can buy that, that they don't know how to. Either way it still makes no difference. When they learn how to, they will. If they can, they will do so.
No they are not. You don't even know this?? The hottest top selling auto last year was the Ford F-series. It sold almost DOUBLE the number of Toyota Camrys that sold. See, the problem isn't that I'm not reading what you write, its that what you write is stupid or pointless or wrong, and many times a combination of them.
Really people "like" fuel efficient autos which is why the F-series is so popular because it gets 50 mile per gallon... oh wait... your full of it.
We've been over this. Everyone knows the techonology exists. We can make a car our of Carbon fiber, with a fuels cell that goes 300 miles a tank, and carries 5 people and has 20 sq/ft of cargo space. Problem is no one wants to pay 2 million for it. So we can make a .8 liter engine in a 2 seater plastic car that gets 100 to 120 mile per gallon, problem is no one will pay $15K for it, and no one wants to ride in a death trap that will split apart if it hits a shopping cart too fast. Ok so they can copy a Honda Civic and make it get the exact same mileage and so on, but they can't make money off it, so why build something if you can't make money on it?
And what's with this K car crap? Where do you get that K cars are so great? They are all in junk yards. I can't even remember the last time I saw a K car on the road. Marketing can only go so far. If you shine up junk, sooner or later people will figure out it's still junk. I never pay attention to advertisements. I don't care how great and wonderful Toyota says their junk is. If it's tiny, and small, and has so little power, and I know if anything larger than a Nerf football hits me, it'll dent my plastic door... I'll never buy it. I don't care how good the gas mileage is. I'd rather pay $100 a week for gas and enjoy my car, than to ride is some midget mobile plastic bannana car. If the K car was so great, they would have stayed with it, and Chrysler would be doing great. They are not. Short term gain, long term pain.
In other words give up. You don't know what your talking about. You don't have any real information. You have an envy and greed problem. No one want your socialism, so just give up.
Once again, you cannot comprehend what I say...
by Skyhawk007 - 5/29/07 11:00 AM In reply to: What thinking have you done yet! by Andy77eI would hope that this thread would close by now, but I see that once again, you have so missed the point, that I must once again re-state my point a little slower so you can understand it, okay?
First, the 'K' car issue. I never said that I was in love with this car, only that I liked the idea of what Lee Iacocca did to revitalize a car company and industry with marketing a concept that would get people's attention to a product and marketing campaign. I never said or thought that the 'K' car was well-built or a great car at all.
Let me say this to you slowly- IT WAS HOW THE CAR WAS MARKETED!!!!
The Chrysler marketing campaign WORKED so well that it got people's attention in a new and exciting way on two levels.
1) It was an affordable car that people could afford to own.
2) The car sold so well that it got Chrysler out of debt quickly.
No, I am NOT saying that someone should make that car again. Why you would say that is beyond stupidity. What I AM SAYING, is that this kind of fresh marketing campaign works, and it is the sort of thing that we need from the Big Three right now, because what they are doing now IS NOT WORKING!
Obviously you have never taken a marketing class in college, so I won't even bother to teach it to you now. It would be a waste of time.
This idea would help create a buzz in the auto world with designing and marketing a high mpg car using an idea similar to the Honda Vtech-E engine two decades ago. The marketing campaign would focus on the current leadership at one or all of Detroit's executive officers speaking openly and honestly about the grave issues with what people have with the super high cost of gasoline at the pumps, and that they HAVE AN IDEA TO HELP WITH THAT. That idea would be something that people could really take to, and be something that would generate talk within the industry- similar to what Lee did in 1980, when Chrysler was going bankrupt then.
Guess what? The exact same thing is happening now.
Chrysler is going bankrupt, and the Daimler Corp which bought them, is now washing their hands of them now. If Kerkorian doesn't buy them, then they are in deep trouble.
This is an OPPORTUNITY to do something different, bold, and exciting from a marketing p.o.v, that would bring excitement back to Detroit, because it is sorely needed right now.
Gas prices are now up to $4.50 a gallon here in California right now. I don't know about you, but I would like to drive a high mpg car made in Detroit, if possible once again, that would help cut the overall driving cost of that car.
This concept would work if someone were to only look to the past, and see how great it worked back then.
It is a WIN/WIN for everyone involved!
Toyota markets their cars with the idea of how great their mpg ratings are, and that is one of biggest reasons why they out-sell GM now.
We see their commercials every day touting their fuel standards- case in point, the Prius, Corolla, and the Camry have been marketed with that in mind.
The technology already exists to get cars above and beyond 40+ mpg.
Every Honda I have owned has gotten at or above 44+ mpg.
It worked for Honda and Toyota, and it can work for Detroit, too, if they only cared enough to try a different strategy than the failed one they are using now.
Sorry to break it to you, but it is not because of "red tape" and supposed government regulations. It is because of that they simply don't care enough about regaining market share to do this.
They say it, but they really aren't listening to their customers, and seeing what is going on around them, unlike what Lee did in 1980.
He listened, and he got the message loud and clear. He created a concept and campaign that worked.
Today on the other hand, Detroit would much rather used the outdated and failed ideas of the 1960's and 1970's, with building 350 hp engines that get 15 mpg that appeal to a small percentage of their redneck customers.
They love talking about "Hemi's" and big muscle cars that get poor gas mileage. Now we are seeing them promote their cars with what they call is "great gas mileage" of 28 mpg!
This is pure insanity and stupidity on their part.
This is why they are losing the race. This is why they are failing.
That is the whole and entire point of this thread- to point out that it is not impossible nor irrelevant to suggest that we can encourage America's auto manufacturers to do something to help not only America, but their own customers at the same time, by designing and correctly marketing a line of cars that get far better gas mileage than what they putting out right now. The technology already exists, and they should and MUST take the initiative to make this happen now.
hmm interesting point
by Lightheart24 - 5/29/07 5:21 AM In reply to: Not quite true... by Skyhawk007Its interesting to see both guys make some valid points. I think I learned more from their arguments than I have known in all my life about Oil.
Even though my knowledge of Oil Companies in the United Sates is vague, my understanding of the world is not. People in the U.S don't know what they pay for Food, your right. A family of 5 can eat for $ 6.99 in South America. It’s not hard to believe, I just got back from a trip to the South America's. Heck, If I go to Africa, $ 5 will be enough for a group of 5 to eat well, in what would be considered a 3 to 5 star hotel.
Milk is expensive? Hmm.. Depends on where you are. I have traveled to the Middle East, through Asia, through Europe, and spent a large part of life trying to better understand people, cultures and the beauty they contribute to our beautiful world. I have seen Milk cost $10 a gallon in some parts of the world, while others I could pay little more than .50 cents for a gallon. Off course I found the 3rd world courtiers always have better quality foods for much cheaper price tag than we do in the U.S. Whats funny is Banana's taste like Cardboard LOL =)
Now I do agree with you our Government does fool us. The Government strategy is "how can we manipulate words so that a lie isn't completely a lie, and the truth is not completely the truth. LOL
Yes Government, or lets put it this way. People elected to represent both you and I are more concerned with their "$$$$” they are so concerned with their $$$$$$ they play the media to blow horns in any direction that benefits them. And what can the Media do, they need ratings, viewers, and unfortunately our people want Bad News. Hence this propaganda of "Terrorist"
This too is a business in itself. Never in History has any nation spent so much $$$$$ for security LOL. All in the name of National Security we are willing to spend BILLIONS in security. The Companies that make X-ray scanners, Airport scanners all of sudden find themselves having to filling orders from all over the country. Not to mention we are willing to sacrifice our civil liberties, our privacy in the name of security? And all anyone has to do is say "BOOO” and everyone starts eyeing each other. What a horrible way to live. And who is allowing our Government to do this to us?
All of us.
We are. So yes you are right. But if someone were to say "We are in Iraq to fight a group of people who are thinking about killing us, or that we have to win a war against our Enemy because they will never stop coming after us. Or we need oil, or we needed to liberate Iraq?..."
Guys please look at you. Could you willingly kill anyone? Would you ever want to? Before you judge anyone at least understand whom it is your talking about. We are fighting for a cause not even our Government knows or understand anymore. First it was Weapons of Mass destruction that took us into Iraq, and then it became liberation of Iraqi people, then only to become a fight against terror. And now it’s Fighting to keep Violence between two factions? The very factions we created, because it was a clever idea "Split the people into two groups so they continue to kill each other, and Americans can be saved from the onslaught or a united Iraq." But it worked both for us, and against us. Instead of making one side our friends, we pissed both sides off. It’s sad really. The people that are dieing are innocent women and children who did nothing to hurt us. Our kids are dieing for the sake of $$$ It’s a tragic time for all of humanity. We are so divided among each other’s because of unjustified hate. It’s sad.
We look for solutions in all the wrong places. We want answers and truth becomes increasingly convenient when we become increasingly ignorant.
Your Cars are not being made because the Government doesn't care for high mileage cars. Yes, that is true. The Car companies are not making high mileage cars because there is a long red tape. Yes that is true. Oil companies are lobbying, Domestic Oil Companies are, but foreign Oil companies are less than 6% that figure is so small its not even worth mentioning. Lets just say this. Oil in any east part of the world right now costs $1 per Gallon, and it is not due to shortages. Truth be told, Domestically Oil prices have been jacked up due to Government taxes, and foreign taxes on oil being imported to U.S. Again the number is so small it’s not worth mentioning. We have Oil, and we are milking people from it. But what will the people do? Nothing, except sit and watch, and hope for someone to answer their prayers. The problem is the answer won't be exactly what they are looking for. The answers will look good on the "Face front" but behind closed doors it will be the most rotten deal for all of us. It’s like dieing of thirst in the desert. And while you see far in the distance what looks like water, you find nothing but sad all around you.... Its minds playing tricks on you. This is what the government is doing to us. Playing mind tricks to control our daily lives.
NEAT! Someone who thinks!
by Andy77e - 5/29/07 8:31 PM In reply to: hmm interesting point by Lightheart24As of now, I'm ignoring the other guy because you seem sensible. He's more like a broken record that never gets to the part where it plays a tune.
MILK:
My point about milk, wasn't really that "it's expensive". It's that we really don't know how much we are actually paying for it. When you subsidize food, the government is taking money from your pocket, and my pocket, and giving it freely, to a farmer (Ted Turner for example) who then sells us milk, a little cheaper. So we talk about how great it is that Milk is $3.29, but in reality, some money was taken from your income check to reduce that cost *AND* likely more money was taken, than how much the price was reduced. Remember, everyone get's a cut when the money changes hands. Government takes a little, Ted Tuner takes a little, then whats left offsets the cost of the Milk.
Lets see if I can illistrate this. If you pay give me $100, I'll sell you Milk for $1.50 a gallon up to 40 gallons of it. Of course you could just buy 40 gallons of milk at $3.29 and save money. Well that is exactly what Government does to us with subsidies. It takes millions from all of us in taxes, then says how great it's subsidies are for keeping the price of milk down to $3.29. It's a scam.
This is why we do not want Government in our gasoline, or phone, or electrical power, or food, or anything. They will simply scam us to make themselves look better and in the end make things worse.
WAR:
As far as the war and such, I have heard that we are losing our civil liberties. That does concern me. But for as much as people have yelled and screamed and protested, I have yet to hear what actual civil liberties we've lost. I guess, I'd like a little more detail about what liberties we've actually lost.
The upgrade to security at Airports was needed. I don't like it, but it was nessary.
Actually, it was all three from the start, and I never thought otherwise. The information we had, and have, indicates Saddam was supporting the terrorist groups that attacked us all through the 90s to 911. So Terrorist was a reason. We know, without question, Saddam had WMDs and he had used them, and we had no reason to believe he wouldn't use them in the future. Further there is still credible evidence that he was trying to get nuclear weapons. So WMDs was a reason. Freedom from this horrible dictator was always something I believed in, even back when Clinton was supporting Saddams removal, and I thought Clinton was a horrid president, but he was right about getting rid of Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people. So it was, and is, all three.
Now we have accomplished all three, so why are we still there? Because just like how France supported the US when why fought for independence so many years ago, if we do not support them until they can stand on their own, they will fall. Iran and Syria and Terrorist networks, all have invested interest in getting control over Iraq. Iraq is the most advanced and wealthy middle east nation. If they end up a puppet of Iran, the danger to us and the rest of the world will be beyond calculation. Imagine Iran's crazy dictator, giving nuclear waste to make dirty bombs in Iraq, and being exported by networked terrorist using Iraqs vast technology and resources to export world wide. And thats just the long term outlook, in the short term, us pulling out before Iraq is able to stand on it's own will result in a massive civil war and ethnic cleansing. Whether you believe it or not, millions of Iraqis love us for freeing them, but if we pull out now, their joy will turn to a seething hatred for leaving them in a civil war. They could end up a worse enemy than before if we ditch them here.
It would be like me freeing you from slavery, only to ditch on in the road, and have you found by your masters who then beat the crap out of you for escaping. Are you going to be on my side after that? Hell no. We must stand with the free people of Iraq until they can defend themselves. And this we will do. I know you don't like innocent women and children dieing, I don't either. But I can promise you millions more will die if we pull out.
CARS and GAS:
Ah... I kinda get what your saying. But I'm not sure if it's totally factual. Crude oil prices are hitting everyone hard. Even Iraq for example. Iraqis pay roughly $0.12 for a gallon. That's twelve pennies. But this is because the government subsidizes gas prices with tax money. They spend roughly 7 billion dollars a year to subsidize gas prices currently. Where do you think that money comes from? India does the same. Ironically both governments are trying to cut subsidies because they can't afford them.
So why are we trying to do exactly what they are finding out they can't? Further, we import more than half of our crude oil. We produce about 8 thousand barrols of crude, and use 20 thousand. 12 thousand barrols of imported oil makes us very suspectible to internation prices, which we are. Even if there's no shortage, if a barrol of crude goes for $75, do you think the independant crude seller local is going to sell crude for much less? Nope. Who are independant crude suppliers? Not Exxon or Shell, they are just suppliers that own wells. There's a guy that owns a bunch of wells in north Ohio for example. He just sells them like anyone would sell a product they made. You think he's selling for much less than the internation price? Nope.
So what is the answer? We want to be free from imported Oil, and we want to avoid paying high gasoline prices. Well, the best way to do that is get the oil here. Right now, our only real source of oil is the Gulf of Mexico. Why? Because the government will not let us get the oil elsewhere. We haven't even explored all of our land for oil. The oil companies figured out that if we know there's Oil in ANWR and the feds won't let them get that, nor some other spots they know, why bother looking? And they aren't. Some companies even reported there are some places they would like to look, but they can't even look for oil, let alone drill and get it. Currently Oil companies are only investing in maximizing the wells they already own.
We do not even know what resources we have in our own land, and we are preventing ourselves from getting the resources we know are there. Government has put us into this situation. They created the problem by preventing us from getting our oil, and now people are demanding they have more control, more power to effect the market, in order to fix the problem they created.
So what about the Big Three, and why don't they make a high mileage cars? Well I'm not convinced they don't. Focus, Aveo, Neon, ION are just the American cars. All of them build cars internationally that are smaller and get better mileage. The problem is labor here in the US is too expensive to make small cars profitable. Aveo for example is imported from cheap Korea labor. Also, the regulation in many countries are few less strict than here. (yeah some are worse), but in many cases, what is allowed to sell abroad, would never make it past government red type here.
Beyond this, people have strange ideas about how much mileage they should get, verses what kind of car they drive. The existance of technology doesn't mean it's practical or affordable. Further, there are laws of physics that simply make getting super high mileage on average size cars, impossible.
There are only two things we can do to help car makers produce these types of cars. First, remove as much red type as possible. Get government out of the car market. Red type adds to cost, both in designing, and producing. Remove as many regulations as you can. If someone makes a bad car, let the people choose not to buy it. Lets stop acting like we're 3 and we need our parents to put plastic covers over the power sockets. Next, reduce the tax burden on the manufacture and the workers. Workers could be payed less, making the product profitable at a lower cost, if they had to pay less tax. If you cut taxes to 10%, an auto worker could be paid five thousand dollars less a year, and still take home more pay than they do currently. Meanwhile, we'd have domestic cars that would be much cheaper and more competitive with imports.
Beyond that, it's up to the company to deal with the unions in order to survive.
i dont believe you !
by eeee - 8/11/07 11:56 AM In reply to: My non-Hybrid Honda Civic got 72 mpg... by Skyhawk007What proof do your offer that your old car could achieve 72 miles on each gallon of gasoline?
Did you use math or "I went all the way to Joey's 3 hours away on just one tank" and estimated that you got 72 mpg ?!?!?!??!?!
Too many of the the people I know, when we start talking cars, use the "I drove all day on 3/4 of a tank" method to brag about their great mileage and dont even know how to accurately divide by the gallons pumped to top the tank into the miles driven AFTER topping the tank at the start of the test.
Oh well. whatever you say
You should, because it is true...
by Skyhawk007 - 8/11/07 1:25 PM In reply to: i dont believe you ! by eeeeThe Honda Civic VX was designed to get great gas mileage, because it ran with highly efficient and super fuel saving engine called the Vtec-E engine. Honda designed this engine to get great mileage for the Civic VX and Civic HX cars in the 1990's.
The engine used efficient design strategies to use only three cylinders under 2,000 rpm. When called for, the engine could use the fourth cylinder when engine rpm rose above that- when passing another car, or for climbing a hill.
The engine was far superior to the one used by the Suzuki Swift and the Chevrolet Sprint, which both only used three cylinders in their engine design.
The Civic VX and HX both had 4 cylinders to their disposal, but needed only three when under 2,000 rpm.
That idea allowed for greater fuel efficiency, and that in turn created high mpg capabilities for those cars.
In fact, the EPA mileage estimates that were posted on the window sticker was 49/55 mpg, and they were right one about that.
My car got better than this mileage, and the 72 mpg was proof of that.
I went from Portland, Oregon to just outside of Sacramento, Cal on just 7.2 gallons of gas. If you do the math, you will see just how great and accurate those figures are.
Overall, I went from Portland to Magic Mountain and back on less than 4 full tanks of gas. The fuel tank capacity of the VX was only 10 gallons, so going that far on less than that was no surprise at all.
That is extremely impressive as compared to other cars that can't possibly compare today that are non-hybrid.
In my opinion, Honda is extremely foolish for abandoning this technology in favor of the more expensive and less fuel efficient hybrid engine that they use today. What happens when the lithium battery needs to be replaced in 5 or so years?
Those batteries are extremely expensive, and the customer will have to eat those costs as well. I have heard that those batteries could cost as much as $5,000 dollars to replace!
People are so very foolish to buy those hybrids, because they simply won't save any money in the end. When you see how many of these cars are now in used car lots, then you can see and surmise that their owners are now just starting to figure this sad fact out.
When you have to spend more than $8,000 dollars to buy an expensive hybrid, as opposed to a similar non-hybrid model of the same class, you can see the simple economics of it all. It will take more than 2 decades to recoup those additional costs, and that is not taking into account of the battery replacement costs, either.
I went a total of almost 2300 miles round trip, and got an average of 72 miles per gallon with my Civic VX in 1994.
There is not any hybrid made today that can come close to that, with the only possible exception being the Honda Insight, which is only a small and cramped two seat vehicle, which has no backseat luggage area, either.
As was my intention when I started this thread, which was then hijacked by those who only wanted to spout their ultra-right wing mentalities, I wanted to show and demonstrate that high fuel efficient vehicles ARE possible to have with already existing technologies right now. Additionally, it is not necessary for the car makers here or abroad to build very expensive hybrids that will not and cannot save people money in the short or long runs. These vehicles are too expensive to own and to maintain, yet people are continually suckered into buying them with the false hope of saving them money. The sad truth is, they don't save any money now, nor will they in the future.
If those sorry fools who buy the hybrids only do the basic math necessary, they will then see for themselves that saving a dollar, while spending twenty at the same time, is no bargain at all.
It is the same concept as the old axiom of penny-wise, pound foolish.
Thank you for bringing the original topic back!
by contours42 - 8/11/07 4:44 PM In reply to: You should, because it is true... by Skyhawk007"As was my intention when I started this thread, which was then hijacked by those who only wanted to spout their ultra-right wing mentalities, I wanted to show and demonstrate that high fuel efficient vehicles ARE possible to have with already existing technologies right now."
The original tone of this thread was polite and interesting until one guy, "Andy the Man" turned it into an insult fest. What a distraction! I have followed most of the posts with interest, but it has been extremely difficult to separate opinion from fact since the day he dragged in the highly charged political debate. Most of the time it bore no relation to the original discussion - fuel efficiency. I appreciate you adding the details of your 72 mpg experience.
Here's hoping that a more informative discussion continues.
Thank you, and you are most welcome!
by Skyhawk007 - 8/12/07 12:25 AM In reply to: Thank you for bringing the original topic back! by contours42Contours42,
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I too want to see good informative discussion about this very important topic that we all face right now here in the U.S with regard to saving money, saving gas, and the saving the environment.
I believe that it is possible to do this collectively, if we all can put aside the narrow-minded beliefs and political posturing like what Andy has done to this thread, and try to push for greater and more effective efforts to cut down on petroleum usage in automobiles.
It CAN be done, if we can get the attention of Honda, Toyota, and other car companies to continue to make more fuel efficient cars like the ones they used to make in the last decade.
Anyone like myself who has owned a Civic HX and VX in the past or present, all knows of the great gas mileage stats that they all got and still get today. I am just so very disappointed that Honda chose to not make those cars any longer, and replaced them with far more expensive hybrid versions that get even poorer mpg than the ones the replaced. It is a silly action that they took, and it makes absolutely no sense to me why they would do this.
The Civic VX and HX models were inexpensive to buy- the two VX hatchback models that I bought were only about $11,000 brand new, and the two door HX model I later bought was only about $12,500 brand new.
The 2-door HX model that I bought got about 47 mpg, and it was about $13,000 LESS than the hybrid version they sell today, when comparing the dollar value of then and now.
With gas prices as high as they are now, and will only continue to climb even higher and higher in the future, it makes sense to contact Honda to get them to make this highly fuel efficient engine available to their customers who want it in their cars.
It is a no-brainer solution.
It is a win/win situation for everyone- not the least of which is a win for the environment and for people's wallets. One other thing that is important to note here- not only are Hondas great mpg cars, but they also emit almost ZERO emissions out of their tailpipes. Most of, if not all Hondas have a ULEV rating that American car companies can only dream of. Honda sedans and hatchbacks all have a commonality amongst them- Ultra Low Emission Vehicle ratings, which Detroit still cannot figure out how to duplicate to this day.
I am interested in hearing what other Civic owners are, or were getting with their mpg stats. What people will find, is that the mileage figures that I obtained with my Hondas in the past, were and are far more common than what people realize.
RE: Thank you, and you are most welcome!
by contours42 - 8/12/07 8:37 AM In reply to: Thank you, and you are most welcome! by Skyhawk007I currently own a 1989 Civic station wagon with 227,000 miles and a 2004 Element with 28,000 miles. I use the Civic for everyday driving (commuting, errands, etc.). I use the newer car primarily for long trips and as a backup to my Civic. The Civic is much less comfortable at the age of 18 BUT it gets between 37 and 41 mpg typically. Last week on a long trip I got 45. The Element gets 27 mpg at best!
Truthfully, it's not all about saving money. I am really concerned with the environmental impact of using automobiles so excessively as we do in this country. The US clearly consumes more of everything the planet has to offer, but we have a nasty addiction to driving our cars. Personally, I think the best thing that could happen to curb our fuel consumption is for the price of gasoline to rise to a point that reflects the true cost of all this driving. Unfortunately, like the point somebody in this thread recently made (I think it was Andy, in fact), I agree that the recent rise at the pumps is benefiting the oil companies more than anyone else. It would be far more productive to steer those funds to investing in alternative fuels as opposed to more drilling - ESPECIALLY in those few precious natural places such as the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. I have actually visited ANWR and let me tell you, you really can't know what we'd be sacrificing until you see it.
So yeah, I'm investing a lot more than I should in my 18 year old Civic. The savings I get from consuming less fuel does not come close to the cost of maintaining this vehicle. But I feel a lot better about filling its tank. And I really have tried to consolidate my driving down to only what's necessary. Maybe driving a less comfortable car makes it a little easier (ha ha)!
Late to the debate..but what the heck.
by natb1 - 12/12/07 1:30 PM In reply to: Thank you for bringing the original topic back! by contours42I am very late to this show, so I dont expect i'll be read.
I am a "right-leaner", but polite, and interested in honest debate.
I just wanted to say people should be carefull to believe conspiracy theories regarding Auto Makers and "Big Oil". Auto Makers will make anything they can sell for a profit. Hybrid vehicles are now selling for a variety of reasons, and so Auto-Makers of every label are making them. There are countless numbers of qualified automakers on the planet who would make "No-Fuel" vehicles, and get rich doing so, If such a vehicle was feasible. If there was a "magic" automobile possible, there is no way it could be suppressed. It defies common sense. Even the oil industry recognizes that oil isnt gonna last forever. They are investing in alternate energy sources themselves.
Yes...Hybrid vehicles contain alot of battery related chemicals/metals, that standard cars do not. They are expensive because of the amount of energy expended to make the car. I would drive an "all electric" car to work everyday, and drive an SUV when I want to. However, Electricity isnt free either. Most Electricity comes from Coal. If we had the courage of the French people, we would have a substantial investment in nuclear power. I dont believe the claim of 72 MPG on a standard civic either.
But, as it stands right now, the planet has easily accessible fuel inside of it. We should use it wisely, and without a guilt trip. The standard of living enjoyed by advanced civilizations owe oil, coal, and natural gas. Before Oil, we burned Whales and Trees for heat and light. You could make a very good argument that Oil saved the whales, and much of the rain forest.
Lastly, this planets most extreme climates are well into its past, before mankind drove Explorers. Why did North America thaw out naturally 10,000 years ago, but todays 1/2 degree over 100 years happened because of the United States? Because it empowers and employs those who say so? Not a conspiracy, but if your in the climate buisness, fear empowers more than piece of mind. I think its a character flaw that is in all of us. We just seem to believe the worst quickly, and in some cases, seek out bad news. I see alot of "Mega Disasters" on Discovery Channel or National Geographic, because how interesting is a show called "everything apears normal"?
I think many of us just need to "chill"....have calm and honest discussions. Theres no good reason to panic, and entertain perinoia.
Oops
by Andy77e - 12/29/07 9:52 AM In reply to: Thank you for bringing the original topic back! by contours42I'll apologize then. I tend to get passionate about the truth, especially when I hear lies.
However, I disagree with you. It was not polite at all.
"The entire Bush and Cheney families have long been connected to Big Oil, and that is whom got them elected in the first place"
This is left wing bull, and is not polite. If you do not want to talk about politics, don't bring it up. Because the moment you do, someone is going to bring the counter argument. Just as I have done. It's amazing to me that Americans can bring up a topic, have someone respond to it, and then claim they "hijacked" the thread. Only in America.
BTW, the reason I never talked about old high mileage cars is because it's old news to me. Everyone *should* already know about the Ford Festiva, Honda 600, Honda CRX, VW Bugs. The reason car makers do not sell cars like this is because people don't want them. The reason they sell over-priced, over-hyped, barely worth noticing hybrids is because people choose to fork out the cash for them (for what reason, no one knows).
re:interested in honest debate.
by dsq111 - 2/5/08 8:30 AM In reply to: Oops by Andy77e"Lastly, this planets most extreme climates are well into its past, before mankind drove Explorers. Why did North America thaw out naturally 10,000 years ago, but todays 1/2 degree over 100 years happened because of the United States? Because it empowers and employs those who say so? Not a conspiracy, but if your in the climate buisness, fear empowers more than piece of mind. I think its a character flaw that is in all of us. We just seem to believe the worst quickly, and in some cases, seek out bad news. I see alot of "Mega Disasters" on Discovery Channel or National Geographic, because how interesting is a show called "everything apears normal"?
I think many of us just need to "chill"....have calm and honest discussions. Theres no good reason to panic, and entertain perinoia."
If you want honest discussions you should start by not being dishonest by posting such distorted,unsubstantiated and easily refuted opinion and claims yourself.It is tiresome to hear the luddite arguing in an age of science and reason where such nonsense is easily invalidated yet the ignorance continues.Such is the human spirit.
It is a scientific fact that the carbon and greenhouse gases released in the last 150 yrs( the dawn of the burning of fossil fuels) is unprecedented in the planets history.It is also directly correlated to our burning/use of fossil fuels..The melting of ice caps directly coincides with the warming up trend of the last 150 yrs.The planet has warmed by about 1-2 degrees not 1/2.This is as significant as equating how well you feel when your body temp is 1-2 degrees over 98.6 degrees-also known as a fever and were you dont feel too comfortable do you?
The consequences of this are climate change coming from the warming of our oceans and how that changes ocean currents such as the gulf stream that effect all weather patterns from which our living existence is due.
Igno
correction
by dsq111 - 2/5/08 9:02 AM In reply to: re:interested in honest debate. by dsq111CORRECTION:
It is a scientific fact that the MASSIVE INCREASE IN SUCH A SHORT TIME of carbon and greenhouse gases released in the last 150 yrs( the dawn of the burning of fossil fuels/industrial revolution) is unprecedented in the planets history.
72 mpg
by epajak - 3/19/09 4:52 AM In reply to: My non-Hybrid Honda Civic got 72 mpg... by Skyhawk007Did you modify your Honda at all in order to get 72 mpg?
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