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Car Tech: Hybrids are they really good for the enviroment?
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by R. Proffitt
- 5/14/07 9:46 AM
In reply to: more misinformation, you've probably never been in a Prius by cwerdna
Great reply.
Good Reply
by Andy77e - 5/19/07 4:41 PM In reply to: more misinformation, you've probably never been in a Prius by cwerdnaGranted, but I have met many Focus owners who get better mileage than that. Out of the 3 Prius owners I know, their experience hasn't been getting 44 mpg. I was giving both cars the benefit of the doubt.
It's under $3 here. Of course once again, the great state of CA proves it can jack up the prices.
OK, looking at the numbers again
Prius MSRP $22,175 Focus MSRP $15,885 Hybrid = $6290 more.
Prius MPG 44 Focus MPG 28 (yet to meet anyone who got 44 in a prius)
Prius $955: fuel cost per year. Focus: $1500 fuel cost per year.
Prius save you a whooping $545 a year. (assuming 12K miles at $3.5 per gallon)
So you are going to spend an extra $6290 to save $545. Only in America does this make sense. A penny wise, dollar stupid.
12 years to catch up.
I don't buy the tax credit because it's going away. Most buyers will not get it.
A 350Z is no where even close to being comparable. Stawman, moving on.
Ok, I'll bite on the battery. However, why have I met people who have shelled out $400 for a battery if it's warrented for 10 years? Please explain, cause I'd love to know. I might see it as being worth it.
I didn't buy a car for touchscreen LCD, nor a "smartkey" system. Rear backup camra? Yeah you need it on the Prius. That's not a bonus, that makes up for you lack of vision behind you. If anything, the smartkey is almost a negative for me. Last thing we need is car thives to just replicate your "smartkey", and drive off with your car without even having to break the steering colum. Not even look suspicious, just hope in, and drive off. New meaning to "gone is 60 seconds".
Yeah as a company, VW does not have the best record, but of their TDI models, many owners swear by them. Some claim 200K mile without any real problems. I wouldn't claim that for all their models, but the TDI is a pretty solid little engine. We'll see about Audi.
But you missed the point I was making. As for mileage vs. cost, a diesel is a much better choice. I have little doubt that other manufactures will move to Diesels, as GM, Ford, and Honda all have plans for Diesels. They will be far cheaper, and get great gas mileage, compared to hybrids.
It doesn't, you can blow all the money you want on an automobile. That's fine with me. If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to drive around in some small, plastic, expensive slug of a techno-car, feel free. Having been in one, no way. Not for me. Especially if I'm not saving money. And if thinking you saved America by not using a few gallons of gas, thereby saving us from buying one barrol of oil from some other part of the world, great, go for it.
As for me, if you want to stop importing oil, let us drill for the oil we have in our own land. The largest untapped supply of oil in the world, is in our land. We should get it. And when all the oil dries up, your hybrid will be dead on the side of the road with everyone else. Well, not everyone, cause I'll have a diesel, and I'll just fill up with bio-diesel and wave at you when I drive past.
more misinformation
by cwerdna - 5/19/07 5:11 PM In reply to: Good Reply by Andy77eYou can see the gas price averages at http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/index.asp. It's at $3.157/gal for regular unleaded right now.
As for "most buyers will not get" the tax credit... err, depends on when you bought. I got it... everyone else got the full credit they were entitled (depending on where they were in the phaseout) if they bought between 1/1/06 and now unless they were subject to AMT or they owed too little total tax. Prices have come down now because of the smaller tax credits. (MSRP used to be an ok deal on a Prius whereas it's a bad deal now.)
I'm getting ~45.6 mpg lifetime average in my Prius. There are plenty of people getting in the high 40s and low 50s on http://www.priuschat.com/. Some there can't even fathom how someone could get below 45.
I only brought up the brake replacement cost of my Z since that's the last car I had which needed it. Brakes jobs don't come free. Not having to do them for 100K+ miles adds up to something.
HV battery replacement is more than $400. They must've had something else done. As I said, it's warranted for 10 years/150K miles in CA and the couple other CARB states and 8 years/100K miles for everyone else.
As for the other extras I brought up, it's to prove that you're not comparing apples to apples. Some people have been upset by comparing a Prius to say a Corolla when a Corolla lacks a ton of features. The same goes w/the Focus. It's an apples to oranges comparison.
As for VW, if you don't subscribe to Consumer Reports, look at where they stand at:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pricing/best-worst-in-car-reliability-1005/most-least-reliable-new-cars/0704_most-least-reliable-new-cars.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pricing/best-worst-in-car-reliability-1005/most-least-reliable-used-cars/0704_most-least-reliable-used-cars.htm
http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2006133
The engine isn't the only part of a car.
Also look at where the Prius stands in owner satisfaction. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/reliability/would-you-buy-that-car-again-406/best-and-worst-models/best-and-worst-models.htm
From http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/reliability/would-you-buy-that-car-again-406/overview/index.htm "The Toyota Prius ranks as the most satisfying vehicle overall for the fourth straight year, with 92 percent of owners saying they’d get another one. Second place again goes to the Chevrolet Corvette..."
I agree that one person alone driving a Prius is just a drop in the bucket. If a significant # of people drove them, it'd help. The bigger issue is that Americans need to be drive more sensible vehicles for their needs instead of 5000+ lb. monstrosities like Tahoes, Suburbans, and Expeditions. The craziness is reflected at http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/fetrends/420s06003.htm
The claim that "the largest untapped supply of oil in the world, is in our land" is totally untrue. See http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/reserves.html.
Biodiesel is a decent idea in practice, but I doubt there's even close to enough supply to meet demands if even 50% of vehicles could run on it. BTW, if you care about your warranty on a VW TDI, you risk voiding it by running more than B5 (5% biodiesel) from sources meeting petroleum industry standards. They used to state this at http://www.vw.com/contactus/faqs.html#5.1 but I can't find the new location anymore.
forgot two things
by cwerdna - 7/11/07 10:31 AM In reply to: Good Reply by Andy77eSince you keep harping on the cost of a Prius vs. a Ford Focus (which doesn't even compare), did you bother looking at Intellichoice's 5-year ownership cost comparison at
http://www.intellichoice.com/reports/comparat or/v2/comparison-fs?
Even if the Prius had $0 tax credit (they subtracted out $1573 for the tax credit), their estimated 5-year ownership cost for the Prius $3621 LOWER than a Focus. The biggest reasons are that the Focus holds its value very poorly partly because it's a Ford and because it's popular as a rental car (see http://www.fleet-central.com/af/t_pop_pdf.cfm?action=stat&link=http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2006/AFFB06_j.pdf). The other part is the fuel cost savings of the Prius.
Also, hybrids are NOT tied to a particular fuel source. If ethanol becomes the fuel of choice, there can be hybrids that run on ethanol. Same goes for diesel. There are diesel hybrid buses and Puegot will be releasing a diesel hybrid car http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/02/19/peugeot-to-release-diesel-hybrid-308-late-in-2007/.
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No I did not forget them.
by Andy77e - 5/20/07 9:53 AM In reply to: forgot two things by cwerdnaI did not harp on Prius vs. Focus. I was merely using the car the original poster refered to. A better comparison is a smaller weaker car. Like a Civic something similar.
No hybrids are not tied to a specific fuel. And I firmly support Diesels. Diesels in other countries already hit 50 MPG without the need for a hybrid systems. They are much cheaper too. Ethanol is garabage. I don't feel like getting back into that crap right now.
That's interesting because every other source I read, indicates a higher cost of ownership for hybrids. Further, I have read that a focus keeps it's value better because most people don't want to buy a hybrid out of warranty and have that $3000 dallor battery pack go bad. I'm starting to wonder if Intellichoice is baised.
cite "every other source"
by cwerdna - 5/21/07 1:05 AM In reply to: No I did not forget them. by Andy77eAt Consumer Reports, after they "corrected" their big boo boo about hybrid costs (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11637968/), they said at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-of-hybrid-vehicles-406/ownership-cost-comparison/0609_ownership-cost-comparison_ov.htm#7 (you'll need an online subscription) that w/full tax credit, in 5 years, you'd come out ahead in cost of ownership by $1145 vs. a Corolla. With 50% credit, you'd come out $430 behind and w/o any credit, it'd be $2005 behind.
However, as I'd pointed out before, comparing a Prius to a Corolla (just like to a Focus) is flawed due to the Prius having more interior room and many features Corollas and Focuses don't have.
In the above table, they also claim that maintenance & repair over 5 years is $300 higher for a Prius (seems wrong) and that the 5 year depreciation as a % of purchase price is 1.8% higher than a Corolla (56.9% vs. 55.1%), which also seems bogus since the Prius was rated as having the LEAST depreciation per http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/news/october-2006/top-10-best-and-worst-cars-in-depreciation-10-06/overview/0610_top_10_best_and_worst_cars_in_depreciation.htm.
True and I disagree with it
by Andy77e - 7/11/07 6:27 PM In reply to: cite "every other source" by cwerdnaThe fact that with a tax credit you'll come out ahead is true. Problem is, I find this immoral, unfair, and against what America is supposed to stand for.
Why should you not have to pay tax, simply because you bought a more expensive car than I could possibly afford? What happened to equality? Now we have a two tier system where those who do what government dictates, get rewarded? This is not what the founding father intended.
It is simply amazing to see how many people talk about how the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, yet you turn right around and support the system doing just that. You get the money to buy an expensive Prius, and the government rewards these rich people with a huge tax break, meanwhile I can't afford one, so I'm SOL, pay your taxes. Thanks alot!
In America, we are supposed to be equal. If I have to pay it, you should have to pay it. If you don't, I shouldn't either. Tax credits should not even be in this discussion. This is why in my calculations, I never used the tax credit. It's flat out immoral.
Again, I only compared the Prius to a Focus because that is what the other poster said. However, my post focused (not a pun) on the aspect of "saving money", which is what most people said. Just look at the complaints people have listed about the Prius. It isn't "oh man, my car is emitting more CO2 than they said!", no it's "Hey I'm not saving as much as they said on gas! Where's that 60 MPG!".
Point is, and has been said here on this forum, "I'm going to save money by getting a Prius!". That is what I'm responding to. When I'm talking about saving money, that is all I'm talking about, and I really don't care about what features the car has.
If the goal is saving money, then I'll compare it to a money saving car. If it has 50 less features, who cares, I'm saving money.
But if I want features, then I'll compare it to luxury class cars, and I wager many of those have many more and I wider variety of features. For example, compare it to a Tesla Roadster then. That car has a ton more features, and you don't need gas at all. Of course your not saving money, but the goal is features right?
Again, my point has nothing to do with features. It's a mistake to say "I'll save money" when it won't, and that my friend, is my point.
As for the 5 year cost of ownership, and maintenance, and depreciation... I personally am very weary of buying a used hybrid. If there's many like me, then the value of a used hybrid will fall faster than a non-hybrid. Most of the "cost of ownership" figures I've seen have all been higher for a hybrid. Can't say much about it, but I'll guess there's a reason for that.
More info on prius vs focus
by macflash411 - 5/20/07 11:15 AM In reply to: Good Reply by Andy77eIf you look at the numbers from www.fueleconomy.gov you can compare the Ford and Prius. First off the Prius has more Luggage Room and Passenger Volume (by just a little bit). Secondly you would emit about double the emissions in the Ford.
Here are some of the millage figures
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles
0.86 gal - Ford
0.45 gal - Prius
Cost of a Fill-up
$39.06 - Ford
$33.20 - Prius
Miles on a Tank
365 miles - Ford
589 miles - Prius
Annual Fuel Cost (based on national average Fuel Cost of 3.10 a Gallon)
$1604 - Ford
$846 - Prius
It may not be as economical to buy a hybrid at this point in time but Toyota is working to cut their next Prius (2009) price a ton and I 100% agree "if you can spend more for a car, in exchange for buying less gas and maybe get a little joy from not polluting as much, then get a hybrid."!!!!
Also i know many prius owners and i have never ever heard anyone get below 30mpg on their prius. The average for all of them is around 40-50. Here is another independent study on fuel economy http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/105503/article.html
Prius Vs. Ford Focus
by macflash411 - 5/20/07 10:50 AM In reply to: I not so sure. by Andy77eIf you look at the numbers from www.fueleconomy.gov you can compare the Ford and Prius. First off the Prius has more Luggage Room and Passenger Volume (by just a little bit). Secondly you would emit about double the emissions in the Ford.
Here are some of the millage figures
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles
0.86 gal - Ford
0.45 gal - Prius
Cost of a Fill-up
$39.06 - Ford
$33.20 - Prius
Miles on a Tank
365 miles - Ford
589 miles - Prius
Annual Fuel Cost (based on national average Fuel Cost of 3.10 a Gallon)
$1604 - Ford
$846 - Prius
It may not be as economical to buy a hybrid at this point in time but Toyota is working to cut their next Prius (2009) price a ton and I 100% agree "if you can spend more for a car, in exchange for buying less gas and maybe get a little joy from not polluting as much, then get a hybrid."!!!!
Prius Vs. Ford Focus
by macflash411 - 5/20/07 10:50 AM In reply to: I not so sure. by Andy77eIf you look at the numbers from www.fueleconomy.gov you can compare the Ford and Prius. First off the Prius has more Luggage Room and Passenger Volume (by just a little bit). Secondly you would emit about double the emissions in the Ford.
Here are some of the millage figures
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles
0.86 gal - Ford
0.45 gal - Prius
Cost of a Fill-up
$39.06 - Ford
$33.20 - Prius
Miles on a Tank
365 miles - Ford
589 miles - Prius
Annual Fuel Cost (based on national average Fuel Cost of 3.10 a Gallon)
$1604 - Ford
$846 - Prius
It may not be as economical to buy a hybrid at this point in time but Toyota is working to cut their next Prius (2009) price a ton and I 100% agree "if you can spend more for a car, in exchange for buying less gas and maybe get a little joy from not polluting as much, then get a hybrid."!!!!
Please do not post the same thing 3 times
by Andy77e - 5/20/07 6:00 PM In reply to: Prius Vs. Ford Focus by macflash411That said, anything to do with .gov is questionable to me. You really trust government that much? Lawyers and Politians (many of which are lawyers) are completely trustworthy, right?
Better sources please. Just looking at the numbers given, something doesn't add up.
At 44 MPG, at 12000 miles a year, a Prius would cost about $846. Ok I'll buy that.
But at 28 MPG at 12000 miles a year, a Focus would cost about $1328. So where did you get this $1604 garabage? Further, 28 MPG is the worst it's supposed to get. It's rated at 37 MPG on the highway. In other words, your blowing hot air whether you mean to or not.
But, hey, if you like to spend tons of money to save a little money, and feel like your "saving the planet" then go fot it. You will not see me in one, unless like you say Toyota drastically reduces it's prices. Of course I'm betting a new TDI diesel will still make a better choice.
28 mpg is not the worst case for a Focus
by cwerdna - 5/20/07 8:25 PM In reply to: Please do not post the same thing 3 times by Andy77eHave you ever bothered looking at HOW the EPA tests are conducted? Probably not. See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml , http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml and http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420f06062.htm. The only two tests that are used in determining the # that goes on the window sticker for MY 2007 and earlier are the city and highway test (after a downward adjustment of 10% and 22% respectively).
Per http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/models/ford/focus/model-overview-4636-5885.htm , Consumer Reports got 20 city, 35 highway, 28 combined on a 06 ZX3 hatch 2.0L engine w/5-speed manual. Per http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/models/ford/focus/model-overview-4636-5594.htm , they got 17 city, 33 highway, 24 combined on an 02 ZX5 hatchback w/2.0L 4 and 4 speed auto. From http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/models/ford/focus/model-overview-4636-5596.htm , they got 17 city, 32 highway, 24 combined on an 05 ZX4 sedan w/2.0L 4 and 4 speed auto.
As I noted before, when they tested the Prius (see http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/index.htm), they got 35 city, 50 highway, 44 combined.
costs of vehicles
by batman823 - 7/19/07 5:27 AM In reply to: I not so sure. by Andy77eYou make a good point about the difference in mileage and cost. Also, you make a good point about hybrids not getting the EPA mileage ratings. But the same is true for every car. Mine is rated 28/35. At worst, with all city driving in the winter with 10-20min warm-ups, I've never gotten below 23mpg on a fill-up. Yes, I do calculate my mileage every time I fill up. Most of the time, I average about 30-33mpg. The focus probably does around the same.
As far as NiHM batteries, I can just tell you what the manufacturers' say, and a little of my own experience with small cells. They are better for the environment, in production and disposal, and that they have a better charge efficiency for the same capacity of a lead-acid battery. Also, for the same size of battery, they have a bigger capacity, quicker recharge rates and get more charges before they go bad.
I cannot say anything about the difference in durability between the two or the cost in the bigger batteries.
The VW TDI isn't allowed in america because it doesn't test well enough on emissions. But as I've said before, we test emissions by volume, not by mile. The VW TDI is a diesel so the emissions standards should be different anyway, but maybe we'll see it in the market soon enough.
Gas prices will continue to rise, but there may be small and short-lived drops in price like you refer to. But just like the stocks, after the ups and downs, the price slowly but surely goes up over time.
A person with enough money to spare to buy a hybrid will probably not buy the Focus, Lancer, or Sentra. If they choose not to buy the Hybrid, it's because of the same reasons you present. They're not as powerful or as much fun to drive as the Couger, Charger or SUV. But if they want to 'save the world' then, maybe they'll go out and buy something efficient.
You're absolutely correct when you advise people not to buy a hybrid. The reason they don't get the EPA mileage rating is because of the way people drive. Basically, when you are running at a constant speed for somewhat extended times, the engine shuts off and the electric motor takes over. But when real people drive in the manner we do, in the city in particular, the gas engine is running all the time because of all the stop-and-go with the pedal to the floor. To get that hybrid to act as it's designed to, you have to be easy on the gas and accept the fact that you can't accelerate as fast as other cars, but people simply don't.
Also, the batteries are terribly expensive to replace because they are new technology and they won't last that 10 or 20 years that would be required for you to save a significant amount of money.
Whao...
by Andy77e - 7/24/07 12:32 AM In reply to: costs of vehicles by batman823Let me make something clear. I am not advising anyone to "not buy a hybrid". I am in favor of people buying whatever car they want. If you want a hybrid, be all means, purchase a hybrid.
However, as for me, I will not be doing so for a number of reason. One reason is because it is not cost effective. I have cut the numbers myself, a dozen different ways and I never come out ahead buying a hybrid. I have no reason to fudge the numbers. If the number actually came out ahead, I'd want a hybrid to save money. But.. you don't.
There's only one way you come out ahead money wise, when buying a hybrid. That's if you get a tax break for it. But again, I have a huge issue with that. Why should anyone be allowed to pay less taxes just because they have the money to buy an expensive car? That's morally wrong.
Anyway. Not everyone is keenly interested in saving money. Some people really just don't like buying gas, and are willing to lose money in the long run to not buy gas. That's their deal, and more power to them. So please don't suggest I'm against hybrids. I'm for people buying the car of their choice whatever it may be.
The main problem I have is when people start make insane claims about the car, that are simply not true.
Maybe gas prices will rise, and maybe not. They are still falling here, so who knows. I'd suggest the only reason why they'll continue to rise is because of certain Americans who vote in ways that increase taxes on poor people, but I'm not getting into that here.
As for the VW TDI, it was sold in the US for quite a few years. I've seen a dozen of them now. The new ones should be coming out this year, according to the last statement I read from VW. I think a national move to diesel would have more positive effects than negative. I can't see why this isn't done. Diesels last longer, have few parts, cheaper to build, get better mileage, I really can't see the down side.
I still think the GMs Volt shows the most promise. Hopefully it will be half as good as documentation suggests.
changing stance? why does it have to be only about saving $
by cwerdna - 7/24/07 12:59 AM In reply to: Whao... by Andy77eWell, many of your earlier posts at least implicitly implied people shouldn't buy hybrids via incorrect assertions and FUD on topics such as lead acid batteries and ni-cads (hybrids don't use them for their traction battery), recycling, global warming being called BS from a questionable source (seemingly funded by big oil), incorrect statements regarding atmospheric CO2 levels and taking a "Tahoe and I know I'm not killing the planet."
You also choose to conveniently ignore other pollutants.
As for tax credits, well, it's going away on all Toyota/Lexus hybrids on 10/1/07 unless something changes (per http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html). What's wrong w/encouraging people to use less foreign oil and a non-renewable resource, putting less CO2 and pollutants into the air and recapturing otherwise wasted energy? This has helped stimulate demand, drive costs down (via competition and economies of scale) and will only have further benefits down the road as the cost of these systems comes down. You've refused to believe other people's studies that hybrids can save money.
People are willing to pay for features like V8 engines, sunroofs and 18" wheels. How much $ did these save you? You'll never see anyone say that a V8 engine saved you $. Buying a vehicle w/a hybrid system is a feature in itself and as I said. See above for benefits.
We've sent people to war over oil. A lot of oil comes from unstable regions and countries that don't like us very much. OPEC is just playing the world like a fiddle.
I agree about insane claims. My biggest pet peeve is misinformation and the spread of it.
As for diesel, the big problem is that even they so called "clean diesels" w/much hyped systems like "Bluetec" are still dirty and much dirtier than many non-hybrids (esp. PZEV rated vehicles).
It also irks me that it has to be so much of a diesel vs. hybrid debate. As I stated before, hybrids are NOT tied to gasoline or one fuel source. Diesel hybrids exist, just not in the form is passenger cars available to consumers in the US, yet.
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