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Car Tech: What's your favorite alternative fuel?
- 4/24/07 5:45 PM
Ethanol
by poulsbobill - 5/3/07 6:54 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
According to EPA’s own studies Ethanol is higher in particulates than gasoline. It has a lower carbon emission per gallon but no one has measured it over the same DISTANCE. Since it has a lower MPG it should be measured over the distance a gallon of gas would go. But since there is a huge farm lobby and Ethanol is the darling of politicians they won’t do it. Ignoring the particulates impact is, in my opinion, criminal. Then again, if there are higher particulates then EPA can continue to dictate measures to the cities… Hmmm…
You are 100% right about production; they can’t meet the full demand and would impact the food supply if it were attempted.
MPG doesn't matter
by impala - 5/3/07 7:48 PM In reply to: Ethanol by poulsbobillIf a biofuel is carbon neutral, the MPG doesn't matter. It will always beat the fossil fuel for NET CO2 emission.
ethanol from sugar probably is not carbon neutral due to energy input in production, not due to it's MPG.
ethanol from cellulose may be close to carbon neutral.
biodiesel may be close to carbon neutral.
biodiesel can be and ethanol from cellulose (if they get it working) will be produced from non-food sources. And biodiesel could be produced at sea or in deserts, having no impact on food. ethanol produced from waste cellulose also would have no impact on food.
Gasoline
by ALovitz - 5/3/07 6:54 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
All indicators world wide show that we've hit the max production of oil. From here on out production will decline and the cost will increase. That said, there are some alternatives that hold promise. Hydrogen is the most likely candidate. Right now, the technology is in it's infantcy with very high costs associated with it, particularly storage. But, with the will along with time and money, I truly believe this is the route we'll go.
That said, the current fad is turning the US into a green country. Nothing wrong with that, but outlawing SUV's as Mr. Gore proposes, yet not doing anything about electric consumption is pure falacy. As pointed out in a press conference with Mr. Gore, his home burns about 10KW of electricity more than mine. "Al, your electricity comes from power plants that burn fossil fuels."
The last point to keep in mind is that the US isn't the only country in the world that burns fossil. The emerging countries like India and China don't have "green" at the top of their list of priorities. So even if the "greenies" are successful in badgering the US into submission, the effect will be similar to peeing in the ocean. One can do it, but the end results with be miniscule.
What to do? Push ahead on looking for alternative fuels. Electricity? it is produced at power plants, the majority of which burn oil or coal. Nothing solved. Hydrogen? Promising, but it's not ready for prime time. Gasohol? this is a short term fix as it doesn't offer the necessary cost efficiencies needed, nor does that route have the capacity to meet demand. Oil? We need it in the short run, but the supply won't meet world wide demand going forward. The objective must be to wean ourselves off of the oil diet we've been on for the past century, with Hydrogen offering the most promise. The utilizaton of Hydrogen, in a wide usage scenario, will be long in coming. Not only do we need a proper/safe way of storing it in our cars, think about distribution. Look at current oil/gasoline production and distribution systems - very big and complex. In order for Hydrogen to be a effective fuel alternative that whole infrastructure will have to be rebuilt. "America, hang on to your walet."
Hydrogen is NOT the answer!
by FredMars - 5/3/07 3:59 PM In reply to: Gasoline by ALovitzMr. Lovitz,
I beg to disagree, as an IC engine that "burns" fuel is not eco-friendly. Ther real issue is not wth the replacement technology but rather the politics of the replacement.
All-electric powered vehicles would destroy the aftermarket auto parts market in a hearbeat. Big oil, will follow suit, taking with it oil the OPEC nations that rely on oil as an economy. As for needed to burn coal or oil to get electric, you have been reading too much oil industry hype. Here in Oregon, hydrelectric is real big, so it solar and wind albeit to a lesser degree, but it has been growing at a steady rate.
Obviously, electric is the clenaest energy to use. Utilizing all of the current technologies, a very clean and economical electric power can be available. In addition to the use of regenerative breaking (thermal/electric) and solar photovoltaics, small efficient induction (no brushes/friction drag) can be utilized on an axle of the vehicle to provide additional charge.
As for ypur political coomentary regarding Al Gore's elctric useage, he puchases (at a premium) green electric that is generated from solar/wind/biomass as do many other Americans today. The problem is the power companies want you pay more for what it better for us all, and so discourage the use of clean power. As for conserving energy, I don't feel that I should dim my lights, take cooler showers, or otherwise be inconvienienced when there are so many Hummers on the road wasting fuel.
I remember when computers were the threat to the office workers of the world. Naysayers warned that a computer was out to take your job away, especially if you were a "bean counter." And just like the industries that will emerge from the new electric vehicles, new industry will emerge and become the Inetls and Microsofts of the transportation industry, so I don't feel that anyone is going to be hurt by this. Well, then again that is not entirely truthul. Tose that stake their economic well being in the oil wells, will have seen the writing on the wall. Those that can will divest the oil for new tech, and those (terrorists) that rely on oil as their main source of funds will whither away without alternative sources of funding. So maybe it is a win-win situaition after all!
Fred M
Corvallis, OR
Fred drinking the KOOLAID or toke'n weed?
by impala - 5/3/07 8:04 PM In reply to: Hydrogen is NOT the answer! by FredMarsYou'll have to explain why an IC engine that "burns" fuel is automatically not eco-friendly. The only reason that is true is NOx emissions, which can be controlled.
If the IC engine "burns" carbon neutral biofuel, then is it not eco-neutral?
As for aftermarket parts, Hot roddders will still buy the next snakeoil product to make their electric car faster, cooler, or dumber. Smart auto companies like Honda will enable true performance parts to be sold.
As for Hydro, it's done. The greens will protest every new hydro project from now on.
Electric is only the cleanest energy to use if you produce it cleanly. Today it is not.
Algore also buys carbon credits from himself. A complete sham. Green energy requires significant investment to produce, which is why it costs more than dirty energy. Power companies are not evil, they are monetarily efficient. Call it greed if you wish, but that's what makes the economy work. They don't make obscene profits. If you dont like it, move to Cuba.
"I don't feel that I should dim my lights, take cooler showers, or otherwise be inconvienienced when there are so many Hummers on the road wasting fuel."
typical algore hypocrite!
forget hydrogen
by impala - 5/3/07 8:08 PM In reply to: Gasoline by ALovitzYou said:
"Hydrogen is the most likely candidate. Right now, the technology is in it's infancy with very high costs associated with it, particularly storage. But, with the will along with time and money, I truly believe this is the route we'll go."
Hydrogen is the least efficient candidate. Due to thermodynamics it always will be. No will, time, or money has ever beaten thermo. Forget hydrogen for earthbound transportation.
What's your favorite alternative fuel?
by marcincolumbus - 5/3/07 6:58 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
When asking what is your favorite alternative fuel, it's best to start by defining what are you hoping to achieve when looking for alternatives to petroleum based fuels. Are you wanting to ween us off our dependence to unstable sources? remover our need for hydro-carbons period? Are you wanting to reduce the amount of carbon emissions? Are you trying to improve air quality in urban environments?
Then what are the options we have available to us for replacing hydrocarbons? And just how much discomfort are we willing to suffer to achieve our goals?
One of the favorite choices, is electric... which on the face of of would appear to be ideal (even with considering the infancy of the technology). But, if your goal is to decrease the amount of carbon, then maybe not. There needs to be a power source to charge the batteries in a electric car. Right now we have hard enough time meeting the needs of our power hungry country, if where to add the additional need for powering electric cars for every household that needs or wants a car, the number of powerplants that we would have to build would go up exponentially. Right now 49% of our electricity is generated by coal, a particularly dirty hydro carbon source of energy. Which in-addition to CO2 emissions, produces a whole host over other gas by products that cause other environmental problems.
There is a process for cleaning coal (at least partially), but the process is time consuming and costly, which would increase the cost for energy production even more.
So, what about bio-fuels? Well they will help with reducing our need for petroleum, but it wouldn't remove it. because of the seasonal temp differences out country has, Alcohol has to be mix with petroleum in order to be used as fuel in cars (hence the term E85... which means as much as 85% is Alcohol, if we lived in the tropics, we could use pure Alcohol, or at least a higher percent). Plus, there are carbon emissions with Bio-fuels, the research is still mixed in regards to the amount, but we still would be contributing to Global Warming (climate change).
So, what about Fuel Cells. Which use Hydrogen to power the car. and the only by product is water vapor. Right now the technology is in it's infancy. To power the car, you either have a source that has a very hi percent of hydrogen (i.e. petroleum), or use pure hydrogen gas, which is very energy intensive to produce. Which puts us in the same boat as using electric cars.
So, lastly... what about Hybrid cars? Let set aside for a moment, that they still use petroleum for power, and technically not an alternative fuel source. They do have a significantly smaller carbon footprint, than a normal car or even a car that runs on E85. Which is very good, and a step in the right direction. But, they still require a gas to power them, and they are still expensive to buy, which makes them a little prohibitive for the average consumer. Hopefully the cost will go down as production goes up, but we won't see that happening in the near future.
Well, I imagine I've lost just about 90% of my readers now... sorry for being so long winded. I wanted to illustrate just how complex the question regarding the choice of an alternative fuel source is. What we really need as a nation is to have an intelligent dialog and come to a consensus regarding in what direction we as a nation want to see us go in terms of energy use and generation, and not just in regards to our needs for transportation.
According to some estimates there is no more than 100 to 90 years worth of petroleum left in the earth, at todays consumption (and our demand has been increasing). If we don't wean ourselves off the hydro-carbon addiction we are going to find ourselves in direct conflict with other countries for the same dwindling resource (for example China, who's need for energy will soon out pace ours). If we don't use this time to aggressively develop other forms of energy we are going to cripple our nation. As President Kennedy once said; “Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.”.
Normally we would expect our government and politicians to step up and take leadership to help find an answer to this problem. But with the current state of our political climate, I think we can all agree (whether you're a democrat, republican, or independent), that's not going to happen anytime soon. Between influence from rich lobbyists and an almost pathological need to protect their own necks, our government is almost powerless to take a leadership role.
Let's start now and solve the problem before it becomes a crisis (at which point it will be too late). Learn more yourself about our needs for energy, learn more about the possible choices for alternatives. In gage other is discussion and hopefully inspire them to learn more about the problem.
Oh and by the way... for the short term, I'd go with a Hybrid:-)
hybrid today, biofuel tomorrow
by impala - 5/3/07 8:15 PM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by marcincolumbusI believe a carbon neutral biofuel process can be perfected relatively quickly. Probably using algae to produce biodiesel.
Also, ethanol from cellulose, a waste byproduct of many bioprocesses and large contributor to landfill mass, would put a significantly dent in net CO2 emissions.
What's your favorite alternative fuel?
by torbar - 5/3/07 6:59 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Air.
Just check this.
www.theaircar.com
Welcome to the future!
After fourteen years of reserch and development, Guy Negre has developed an engine that could become one of the biggest technological advances of this century. Its application to CAT vehicles gives them significant economical and environmental advantages. With the incorporation of bi-energy (compressed air + fuel) the CAT Vehicles have increased their driving range to close to 2000 km with zero pollution in cities and considerably reduced pollution outside urban areas.
As well, the application of the MDI engine in other areas, outside the automotive sector, opens a multitude of possibilities in nautical fields, co-generation, auxiliary engines, electric generators groups, etc. Compressed air is a new viable form of power that allows the accumulation and transport of energy. MDI is very close to initiating the production of a series of engines and vehicles. The company is financed by the sale of manufacturing licences and patents all over the world.
Hope it's not a hoax
Zoc
compressed air is extremely inefficient
by impala - 5/3/07 8:19 PM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by torbarusing compressed air as an energy storage medium is extremely inefficient. Batteries are better.
Hydrogen as an Alternative Fuel
by harralrw - 5/3/07 7:07 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Hydrogen gas can be produced in several ways, but primarily by reacting a hydrocarbon with sream at high temperature or by elecrolysis of water. The first is very enegry inefficient, produces a lot of carbon dioxide and waste heat. The second is only feasable if the electricity in generated using nuclear power. All this not withstanding, there is no distribution system, storage systems for cars are not well developed, and hydrogen is considerably more dangerous to handle than gasoline. And last, hydrogen is too valuable as an raw material to waste it in cars. If all this wasn't enough, wait until the regulators and comsumer protection people realize the potential for a major disaster at a hydrogen distribution center.
I conclude that a hydrogen based economy is a pipe dream that may never happen, especially in the next 20-30 years.
AMEN, and one more thing...
by impala - 5/3/07 8:21 PM In reply to: Hydrogen as an Alternative Fuel by harralrwAMEN, and one more thing...
... the basic thermodynamics of hydrogen production and transportation mean it will NEVER be appropriate for transportation. Batteries will always be better.
More like, what is your preference
by Julz2k - 5/3/07 7:23 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
In order of "when you think about it, what seems to make the most common of cents/sense":
1. person power -- walk, bike (or even old-fashioned horses)
2. mass transit -- using alternative fuels (pick your poison)
3. full electric vehicle -- w/ solar cells to augment electrical needs on sunny days and a flywheel to also augment elec needs (i.e. storing kinetic energy to use to generate electricity)
4. plugin hybrid
5. hybrid
6. non-electric vehicle
As for fuel for internal combustion engines, whether in a hybrid or non-hybrid vehicle, most alternative fuels have less BTU (that is, stored energy) than gasoline/petroleum fuels. Corn-based ethanol is not the ong-term answer -- farmers already farm the cr@p out of the land, the add'l demand will just make things worse. Not to mention ethanol from other sources may hold more BTUs and be less stressing to the land and more efficient to farm, such as switchgrass or amaranth (which we can eat too). Or what about fermenting organic garbage to produce the alcohol? Anything organic can be turned into alcohol -- we humans have proven that for thousands of years (pine needles anyone? (gin) How about cactus (tequila)? Dandelions -- ooo, we could kill two birds with one stone!). The problem with straight or high % alcohol fuel is that it is also an excellent solvent, and tends to remove lubricants. Heaven forbid we might have to redesign IC engines to burn other fuels better. I wonder how a Wenkel (rotary) engine would run with high-alcohol fuel, since it has fewer moving parts than a standard engine.
Biodiesel makes sense, too, as diesel engines seem to be more fuel efficient no matter what the load is -- the engines just need to get cleaner. H2 is probably the worst alternative fuel -- for reasons already stated by others. How about a turbine fueled by biodiesel? Turbine fuel is very similar to kerosene, and I imagine it wouldn't take much to tweak biodiesel to run a turbine, and those engines put out a ton of HP, but they need to be soundproofed.
We need to think outside the box. Is the old-fashioned IC engine still the way to go? Or are there other ideas we can look at? Wind-power? Solar? Perpetual motion? Fusion/fission? Hamsters in a squirrel cage?
My Favorite Alternative Fuel
by Looking-4-Answers - 5/3/07 7:26 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Well it certainly is NOT electricity. Why? To begin with, how is it produced? With fossil fuels mostly. Yes it can be produced via wind, wave, and solar but, remember when they tried building a wind farm off Massachusetts Bay a year or so ago? Good old Ted Kennedy said, "not in my back yard." And don't even think he's alone with that opinion either.
Next, have any of you battery toters ever complained about replacing your batteries in your flashlights, radios, cameras? Well newsflash here guys, those car batteries won't last forever either. Now check into what it will cost you to replace those oh-so-wonderful batteries. You could buy a new car for the money andf that is counter-productive to the whole "green" thing.
Bio-fuel and/or hydrogen. Those are the only good possible alternatives. We can grow plenty of bio-fuel (corn) right now and there is no reason why we can't use the ethanol we get from it to power the plants that convert the corn to ethanol either.
Hydrogen is wonderful because the only by-product from burning it in your internal combustion engine is water. What could be so bad about that? Then the cops would have a trail to follow when chasing those dreaded bank rob
hydrogen not so wonderful
by impala - 5/3/07 8:24 PM In reply to: My Favorite Alternative Fuel by Looking-4-AnswersFunny how no one mentions that combusting hydrogen in an IC engine will produce some NOx.
The processes to use hydrogen for transportation power are terribly inefficient. Batteries are better.
Solar energy is best. Biodiesel is solar energy in a bottle.
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