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Car Tech: What's your favorite alternative fuel?
- 4/24/07 5:45 PM
Can't be ethanol
by caps - 5/3/07 6:15 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
ethanol won't scale. If it becomes "the" fuel, there'd be no room for crops other than corn in the US. Electricity would be good, though we're far away from having a battery that will take us more than 20 miles. Petroleum works really well, and there is more of it now than there was 20 years ago, if we'd tap it. But it's messy. Nuclear...too much weight for shielding. I keep coming back to hydrogen. Cheapest of all, once it's in production, most plentiful...oh, but the technology! How long until it's more than a lab model or a pipe dream? Bill Gates, here's an investment for you.
don't invest in hydrogen
by impala - 5/3/07 6:54 PM In reply to: Can't be ethanol by capsethanol from sugar/starch won't work. But it could be a starting point for Ethanol from cellulose which might work. Think of all the landfill waste that is cellulose and could be converted to ethanol.
BIODIESEL WORKS! It's solar power in a bottle.
Hydrogen makes no sense to use in transportation unless you truly have surplus electricity. Even then batteries are better than hydrogen. It costs much more energy to use than it returns. Very inefficient.
Alternative Fuels are not what we are led to believe!!!
by wremote - 5/3/07 6:18 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
A lot of the alternative fuels are not as as beneficial as we believe!!
Ethanol is just basically converting food to fuel the more ethanol produced the higher the price of food!!
Electrical is just an environmental disaster. The harm to the environment in producing the batteries and the subsequent disposal is just irresponsible. The electricity needed to charge these batteries can be from fossil fuels and the efficiency of charging batteries is low !!
Hydrogen while seeming to be clean etc. is derived from natural gas another fossil fuel. Obtaining hydrogen from water just uses electricity from another source with its own problems
The best fuel hasn't been developed yet, fossil fuels will get better over time, as technology improves as will hydrogen. Bio fuels just don't make sense, and until we can store electricity in a non polluting manner electrical will continue to be a curiosity.
The point I am trying to make is the the total impact and benefits must be examined before jumping to any of the sexy options.
biodiesel makes sense
by impala - 5/3/07 6:57 PM In reply to: Alternative Fuels are not what we are led to believe!!! by wremotebiodiesel makes sense. You could produce it from the ocean. You could produce it in a desert (with some water supply). It can use current infrastructure and vehicles. It is solar energy in a bottle.
Ethanol from sugar doesn't make long term sense. Ethanol from cellulose might make long term sense. Think of all the landfill wast which is cellulose.
Hydrogen makes the efficiency of batteries look good!
Let's look at the problems...
by geek49203 - 5/3/07 6:20 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
1. It is not clear that, outside of limited city driving, Hybrids are more fuel efficient than their traditional counterparts. In addition, something about heavy metals mined in China (that go into the batteries), along with the limited lifespan of such a vehicle (who's gonna replace batteries on a 150,000 mile car?) lead me to believe that they are not more green than a traditional car.
2. Hydrogen cannot be easily stored or transported, as it leaks thru metal storage tanks and pipes. Hydrogen cannot be efficiently "mined" from water -- it is a net energy loss game. If you had a source of hydrogen sitting around, then it makes a dandy motor fuel, but right now these limitations kill this idea (and has for 100 years).
3. Biofuels -- ditto on the net energy loss game. I live in farm country. If you converted all of the farm land in the USA to biofuels, then we'd be awfully hungry, and only offset 20% of our energy needs.
My favorite is diesel - a good tubro Jetta will get 50 mpg and run 150 mph, and the car is good for 300,000 miles. Newer diesels are as clean, or cleaner, than the hybrids in normal driving. However, this still doesn't get me around the problem of fighting wars for oil, or supporting governments that pay for people to attack us.
Every year, at least a $Billion goes into traditional internal combustion motor development (heck, half of that from F1 teams alone). This investment has been happening for over 100 years. It will be tough to find a better alternative to this technology anytime soon.
hybrids make sense; some biofuels make sense
by impala - 5/3/07 7:17 PM In reply to: Let's look at the problems... by geek49203hybrids make some sense because their batteries are not as large as a pure electric car, and their engines are not as large as a traditional car. In a hybrid you can size the engine to provide just enough power to cruise at, say, 80MPH or to be most efficient at a lower speed, whichever is larger. This will be a surprisingly small HP engine in an aerodynamic car. It could be a small turbo-diesel running biodiesel. Heck, forget the pistons, it could be a tiny turbine.
The most efficient engines run at a constant rpm for which they are designed. Think diesel generator. Think small turbine. This is the same reason locomotives are hybrid drive. Smaller (than otherwise required) diesel engine generates electricity driving electric motors. They certainly are not limited to cities.
You size the electric motor and battery to give acceptable acceleration and mountain climbing ability when combined with the small engine spec'ed above. You can use regenerative braking to recover energy otherwise lost. You can get very long driving range before empty and a great 1/4 mile ET to boot. Hybrids are not limited to city driving.
Pure electric is limited to city driving.
Biodiesel can be produced at sea, or in the desert. It doesn't have to come from arable land. Just add water and sunlight and some nutrients and plenty of CO2.
sugar based ethanol is not a long term solution. cellulose ethanol may be a long term solution. Think wood pulp. Think of all the cellulose that ends up in landfills today.
Biomass
by electrogreen - 5/3/07 6:22 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Biomass fuel is the future. Look it up. Hemp seeds can be pressed for oil and used to make fuel. You can grow hemp two times in a season. WE used to grow it all the time for rope and fabric and lots of other things.
stop smoking the hemp
by geek49203 - 5/3/07 6:27 AM In reply to: Biomass by electrogreenI'm sorry, but I live in farm country.
The energy needed to grow your hemp is quite a bit more than we'd get when we burn the hemp (in any form). If the farm machinery and processing equipment was all running on hemp oil, they'd user much more hemp oil trying to grow it and process it than they'd get to put in your car.
This is true for every other form of biofuel tried to date.
Farmers know all this, but are keeping silent as the price of corn has tripled in the past few years, and that's a good thing for them.
key words "tried to date"
by impala - 5/3/07 7:22 PM In reply to: stop smoking the hemp by geek49203ethanol from sugars and starch will not make sense in the long term. ethanol from cellulose may make sense in the long term. there are a lot of cellulose byproducts of other products (wheat straw) that are considered trash today and even ends up in landfills.
biodiesel can come from many sources other than food crops. It can be produced in deserts and possibly at sea. You need water, sunlight, CO2, and a few nutrients.
No one simple answer
by rboyd100 - 5/3/07 6:27 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Ethanol and Hydrogen require lots of energy to make. And that means burning lots of coal and producing lots of greenhouse gases. It could also use nuclear power but then you have the waste problem. So there is no one simple answer. We have to pursue all alternatives and will probably use a variety of methods in the future. I think electric vehicles will be a large part of the equation.
Robert
It's not just the fuel, it's the processing as well.
by ming1 - 5/3/07 6:39 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
My two ideal fuels would be bio-diesel from plant wastes, and hydrogen. But, they would have to be produced from a green power source. One source could be solar or wind power. Another could be methane from anim al and plant wastes. It does no good to produce a green fuel using fossil fuels to make it. Hydrogen is, virtually, unlimited. We have "oceans" of it. The danger is the high pressure. It is less dangerous than gasoline when it burns. If the Hindenberg had been filled with gasoline, no one would have survived.
H20 is virtually unlimited, and so is CO2...
by impala - 5/3/07 7:40 PM In reply to: It's not just the fuel, it's the processing as well. by ming1H2O and CO2 are both waste products of combustion (and animal respiration) and thus virtually unlimited supply.
SO WHAT? That doesn't mean anything.
The trick is to convert them back to H2 O2 and C.
There is no possible efficient way to go directly from H2O to H2 + O2.
However, plants have figured out out to do: H2O + CO2 + sunlight = O2 + CxHxOx
It's called photosynthesis. Some plants then convert it to CxHx hydrocarbons.
I call that biodiesel.
Hydrogen burns VERY aggressively, as evidenced by Hindenberg and Challenger. Plenty of people have survived airplane crash & burns. Burn rate of gasoline is is very fast, but not as fast as hydrogen. Hydrogen is MORE DANGEROUS because of the extreme pressure. Gasoline vapor will explode, but remaining liquid must vaporize as it burns. Hydrogen is instantly vaporized at room temperature and pressure.
Diesel is downright stable compared to hydrogen.
Carbon Nanotube Capacitors to the rescue!
by IHiJump - 5/3/07 6:42 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Capacitors are about to be revolutionized. Companies are currently scrambling to mass produce capacitors using carbon nanotube filaments to vastly increase their storage capacity. When they're perfected, these new capacitors will function as batteries do today with the following benefits:
1. No hazardous chemicals (just carbon)
2. Recharges quickly like a capacitor (minutes)
3. Will recharge many more times batteries
These new capacitors will make electricity alternative auto fuel of the future (the near future). It's coming... I'm sure on a small scale... consumer electronics first (cell phones, cameras) and then cars.
Alternative fuel
by mojoryb - 5/3/07 6:47 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
At present I run a deisel, but have been using Biodeisel since it came out here with great success. Choked that the local beurarats don't recognise that fact & provide a little more incentive(s), but I
can sleep at night knowing I can contribute less then others to the atmosphere.
Shoe-leather express, bicycle, or car-pooling
by TONI H - 5/3/07 6:47 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Car-pooling doesn't have to just be regarding getting to or from a job...it could also involved shopping, going to school (from kindergarten through college), errands, etc. that you could do with neighbors, friends, co-workers, and relatives. Bus rates have also passed on that fuel increase to its passengers.
It's gotten to the point that your monthly payment to purchase a vehicle is smaller than the cost of the fuel to use the darn thing. The trickle down effect is that trucks hauling food, ships bringing it in from other countries, trains to food terminals, etc. are all using fuel to do so, causing the food prices to also climb to astronomical numbers.
Fuel increases also effect your rates for heating your home...even an all electric house still uses fossil fuels that need to be converted. Our area alone has recently suffered two 25% increases in less than 6 months...cutting back to having ice cold hands during the winter and layering clothing IN the house hasn't made any difference as the electric company bills show a drastic reduction in usage/consumption, but their increases have still nearly doubled last year's bills for the same period of time.
Forget global warming garbage....think about survival at its basic level. Try living on a fixed income and realizing you are paying so much for your heat that you can't afford to buy meds or food on a regular basis just to make it through the winter.
TONI
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