Car Tech: What's your favorite alternative fuel?
- 4/24/07 5:45 PM
it depends on how you make it...
by impala - 5/3/07 2:40 PM In reply to: hydrogen fuel cells by newgIt depends on how you make it, and on what else you could have done with that energy besides make hydrogen.
read this:
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
Electrolysis, yes; from converted AC, no...
by normfromga - 5/3/07 8:14 PM In reply to: it depends on how you make it... by impalaThe article is correct that electrolysis of water is probably the best of several hydrogen-producing processes to use, but it, as has many here, presumed that it would be fueled by commercial AC power, thus requiring the increase consumption of fossil fuels or other non-renewable resources in its manufacture.
However, DC can be produced directly as a result of many other non-polluting processes, such as magnetohydrodynamics (MHD), thermoelectric generators (thermopiles), and, of course, solar cells, which can take advantage of, respectively, hot gas streams produced from other industrial processes, geothermal or other natural heat sources, and, of course, sunlight.
The advantage of using commercially-produced DC to produce H2 rather than just charging electric cars is that it is easier and more efficient to distribute H2 than DC power, long distances.
As to leakage problems, that is something materials engineers will have to tackle. After all, Wankel engines were only a theoretical concept until engineers developed improved seals, and electric/hybrid cars were made practical when new battery materials were developed.
you missed the main point
by impala - 5/3/07 10:12 PM In reply to: Electrolysis, yes; from converted AC, no... by normfromgaI think the main point is that batteries are always more efficient than fuel cells. In that article, both fuel cells and batteries have an AC-DC step. If you generate DC with solar power or whatever, your always better to charge a battery than to make hydrogen.
And, it is NOT easier and more efficient to transport H2 than electricity. That article covers the transportation effect. I say electricity because to transport it you have to convert DC to AC. Still, H2 is very inefficient to transport compared to DC>AC>transport>AC>DC.
H2 is the smallest and most leak prone molecule and you're compressing it to the most extreme pressure, and it's corrosive. You would need a perfect system to prevent leaks. It's going to leak.
Today Wankel and piston engines both use seals that leak, but only when operating, and they are "good enough".
DC to AC?
by FredMars - 5/5/07 5:43 PM In reply to: you missed the main point by impalaI was under the impression that it was just the opposite, that you have AC generated, sent along high tension lines, where it is stepped down to 440VAC down the street and then to 220VAC at the pole outside your house. Then it is brough into your main circuit box as 120VAC or in the case of necessity it remains at 240VAC.
The problem with the current technology is that even with off-peak production of electric, if it isn't being used, it dissipates in the form of heat. ALso, would it not be a better plan if hypercapacitors/batteries were employed to store energy locally? Even with converting that stored (DC) power and aving to convert to AC, it would only draw power from the grid when the batteries needed charging, and with the highly efficient photovoltaics on the market and some are boasting better than 85% efficiency even on overcast days, you would probably be able to sell power back to the grid.
Wankel was a good idea but poor design. It is leaky, wastes fuel, and does not provide a good alternative to a piston engine.
I still see electric drive the best choice. A high torque/horsepwoer AC motor will provide better economy and performance than any internal combustion engine.
Atomic energy is not necessarily the best way to provide electric to the grid either. As I wrote in another post, unless the reactors are designed better, and what is now called spent fuel can be recycled, The problems associated with dealing with all that atomic waste far exceeeds the benefits.
I guess I'll keep saying it, until everyone gets it: The technology is not the issue, it's simply a matter of money. Yeah, I saw "Who Killed The Electric Car" and "An Inconvveient Truth" and while the latter had many holes in the fabric, The EV1 was killed by the H2 lobby in California.
Here is a thought: What if I invented a device that generates electric without burning fuels, without using chemicals, without dependence on the sun or wind. WHat is I could place a small device in your MotoRAZR and you would never have to charge your cellphone again, ever? What if I could make one large enough to power your home with this same technology? How long before my shop gets burned down, or I am told by DoD that I cannot put this on the market because of National Security issues?
Well? Anyone have answers? Nah, I didn't think so. It will take a revolution to make it happen. What if we all just did not buy fuel on May 15? There are emails going around suggesting this. What impact do you suspect that will have on the oil/gas reserves? One way to find out is to participate in the process.
Fred Mars
Corvallis, OR
Get Real
by gr8leather - 7/4/07 5:46 AM In reply to: Avoid buying fuel one day a month by modotxThe only way to affect the oil reserves, is to NOT DRIVE anywhere, One Day An Month. Not buying on any certain day only means we put more in when we do buy. Think about it!!
Absolutely - I agree
by gr8leather - 6/25/07 8:00 AM In reply to: you missed the main point by impalaWankels are the most friendly ICE for hydrogen. Mazda will be importing a duel-fuel Mazda CX7, in 2008, by the article I read the other day, however, the high pressure tank concerns me - and put it along with a gasoline tank ! WOW??
Ford has articles on the internet showing, existing modified engines that are using hydrogen. The sites are:
http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/technology/hydrogenTransport/hydrogenInternalCombustion.htm
I would be mistaken, NOT to include an invention that produces hydrogen-on-demand, eliminating the need for the bomb under the seat. You can read about this at this blog:
http://cscinventorsclub.blogspot.com
H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at
by prodesma - 4/25/07 10:27 PM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
I can't believe this isn't even an option in this thread? I've talked with an auto industry insider and he says there was a study done in 'overall environmental impact' from car models and the Toyota Prius ranked dead last! Why? Because the battery cells will need to be replaced, and they are highly toxic, among other things. (The highest rated car in the survey was the Yaris, also a Toyota model).
While bio-diesel is a great stopgap fuel alternative, it still isn't as clean as nothing. As in hydrogen. CNG, ethanol, and electric I think are simply harder to have universal access to. I can't wait for hydrogen fuel cell cars (& trucks/ess-you-vees) to make it to the market. There have already been some successful prototypes, it's basically range and cost of manufacturing that is holding them back (from what I understand).
A newer alternative is Lithium-Ion, like the Chevy Volt or the swank new Tesla. But again, it is the battery thing. However, the Tesla is pretty sexy for alternative fuel (really, really sexy).
I remember reading a couple years ago that GM was not going to get into the hybrid market and was working diligently on h2 cars (that's changed now)... That, (again) hybrids aren't a perfect solution, they are a stopgap. BMW purportedly has an h2 prototype car, but won't release anything in the near future. Several other mfr's are well along as well.
What I think may be truly exciting is to see if a new car manufacturer arrives with h2 fuel. Not a new badge from a current mfr, but a whole new company. It could be an opportune time to introduce themselves as a customer is looking for something new. Somebody that wants to join the fray, like a new Sparrow model, or a DeLorean... (Is Sir Richard Branson a reader of CNet forums?).
I realize the implications: a dealer network, parts network, mfr'g facilities, etc (read HUNDREDS of millions of USD at the barest minimum)... But it would be a great time and I think people would be more receptive to NEW than they would be if one were to try to compete against the current market leaders (read: Brilliance selling in US and Europe), with a similar product (read: combustion engine).
Well, others may disagree, but that's my take. My .05 cents FWIW. (haven't you heard .02 has gone up with inflation?). Cheers.
H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n ?? h2 is obsolete
by albizzia - 4/26/07 10:34 PM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at by prodesmaThe problems with H2 are many. It is an extremely bulky fuel, getting enough stored to drive a car a reasonable distance is a major problem. Compressed at 10,000 psi (5 TONS per sq. inch!) in expensive and heavy carbon fiber tanks a gallon of compressed H2 has only 1/5 the energy of a gallon of gasoline. Liquified at ultra-cold temps and stored in expensive dewar flasks, a gallon of liquid H2 has only 1/4 the energy of a gallon of gasoline. BMWs "Hydrogen 7" has a 30 gallon liquid H2 tank, but goes only 120 miles per tank, 4 mpg, and needs a 16.7 gallon petrol tank to get a reasonable range.
Hydrogen is a very small molecule, it leaks easily, and diffuses right through most materials. It can dissolve into steel, making it brittle.
While there are many ways of making H2, they are all expensive and inefficient. The cheapest way of making H2 is from natural gas (CH4), a fossil fuel. More efficient to use natural gas directly.
But the biggest problem for H2 promoters is getting people to ignore all of the clean, cheaper, and more efficient alternatives that are available.
P.S. Prodesma, your "auto industry insider" is feeding you a line. Toyota has not had to replace NiMH batteries in the Prius. There are 10 year old Prius in Japan running on original NiMH batteries. There are Prius that have gone over 200,000 miles (one over 300,000 miles!) and are still running on their original NiMH batteries. That is why Toyota offers a 10 year 150,000 mile warranty on the NiMH battery. When Toyota does have to replace a NiMH battery, it will be recycled - the nickel in them is too valuable to discard. The NiMH batteries are not "highly toxic", they are much less toxic than the standard lead acid starter batteries in all other cars!
Okay, fair enough
by prodesma - 4/26/07 10:52 PM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n ?? h2 is obsolete by albizziaSo, you may not believe my source for the "overall environmental impact" study. But this takes into account manufacturing, use, and overall lifecycle. I never said Prius batteries HAVE NEEDED to be replaced. I said they WILL NEED to be. Apparently that waste (even with the nickel recycling you mention) puts it in a poor overall position.
While you state H2 is obsolete, and in another post that steam is obselete... Okay, fair enough.
I appreciate your opinions on electric, but I sincerely doubt that "Electrical production and distribution systems are in place" to meet the overwhelming demand that EV's would have. Maybe about 20 more Hoover Dams in the USA would help. (uh, I say that somewhat sarcastically, please don't take offense. I've already noted my skepticism to the current electrical stations being able to cope).
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think the more conversation to be had, the better. Better solutions are clearly needed. And consumer awareness is a great step in the right direction. Cheers.
Electrical supply problems? maybe not...
by albizzia - 4/26/07 11:10 PM In reply to: Okay, fair enough by prodesmaIt takes electricity to run refineries and pump gas. Turns out that the amount of electricity needed to make a gallon of gas will drive an electric car about as far as a gallon of gas will drive an IC engine car.
So with more electrics and plug-in hybrids, there is less gasoline made, and thus less electricity used by refineries! Neat, huh!
Also, most of the car recharging will occur at night, when most businesses are shut down, electricity demand is lowest, and lots of surplus electricity is available - cheap.
Plug in's help to balance electrical load
by dabeach - 5/2/07 8:25 PM In reply to: Electrical supply problems? maybe not... by albizziaMost plug in vehicles will be plugged into the power grid at night when their is actually a surplus of power and actually help to balance the daily power load and make use of the surplus generation capacity at night. Some electrical utilities offer lower prices during off peak times so a win-win
I agree with electric but no one is suggesting that we use
by wil_w_s - 5/3/07 1:30 AM In reply to: Plug in's help to balance electrical load by dabeachI agree with electric but no one is suggesting that we use solar panels to provide the electricity. Yes they are an expensive initial investment but once they pay for them selfs its basically free energy and a surplus in most cases (ie you will receive a check from the electric company). This will reduce the drain on the current electrical market as well as adding a boost of extra energy to it.
Solar Panels are great, but...
by TWIFOSP - 5/3/07 2:47 PM In reply to: I agree with electric but no one is suggesting that we use by wil_w_sIt takes 8 years to generate enough power from a solar panel to recoup the electricity put into its manufacture. Then, it's free power for the remaining life of the panel.
That is by design
by FredMars - 7/4/07 11:54 AM In reply to: Solar Panels are great, but... by TWIFOSPThe only reason that Photovoltaics are cost prohibitive is because the manufacturers keep it that way be design. They charge enough so that when everyone in the community has them, they will not go belly up. Designs of Solar/wind combination systems can produce more electric than the average residence can consume, so they will always be "spinning the meter backwards" and generating income. The utility companies will then belly up if they have to buy energy from those that they used to charge.
Auto makers burn R & D dollars in alternative fuels to appease the petro-chemical industry that would stand to lose the most with all electric transportation.
But consider the most blatant example of high power electric motors versus all others. The Diesel-Electric locomotive is the best example of how electric is vastly superior to all other drive motors. The diesel engines turn turbines to produce the electricity for the twin 6000HP electric motors. Using advance battery technology to store some of that generated electric would save millions of gallons of fuel, since the diesel would only have to burn while generating electric for higher emand, such as starting up from a standstill, or climbing a steep grade. Batteries with solar backup can produce enough power to keep the electric motors running and the diesels can shut down.
There are ways to do things more affordably or more efficiently than what we have been doing.
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