Car Tech: What's your favorite alternative fuel?
- 4/24/07 5:45 PM
hydrogen?
by ruko - 5/3/07 10:05 AM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at by prodesmaHydrogen has such a mythical aura to it, but in the context of energy, it's just another fuel. Actually, it's more of any energy storage medium than a basic fuel. That's because hydrogen doesn't occur naturally on earth and can only be produced by consuming another form of energy. There is so much talk about "the hydrogen economy" and the notion that hydrogen will rescue us from our dependence on petroleum. Sadly, politicians who promote hydrogen as the energy panacea neither understand science nor respect those who do. Since it takes just as much energy to produce hydrogen from water as is released when that hydrogen burns back into water, hydrogen alone won't save us from the Algore world of tomorrow.
There are only a few true sources for useable energy: solar energy (which includes wind power, hydropower, and biomass), fossil fuels (which include petroleum and coal), and nuclear fuels. Hydrogen is not among them; it can be produced only at the expense of one of the others. Even ethanol, which is touted as an environmentally sound replacement for petroleum, has its problems; producing a gallon of ethanol can all too easily consume a gallon of petroleum, all things considered.
Be energy smart...
by robains - 5/3/07 11:43 AM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at by prodesmaH2 is definitely NOT where it's at, way too much energy expended to make it a viable source.
I own a Prius and the Prius batteries are not more toxic than current non-hybrid car batteries (you know, the ones that start your car and need replacing every few years) and the Prius batteries don't require frequent replacement like most car batteries.
Prius goes a LONG way towards helping the environment with ultra low emissions when the gas motor is on and with conversions that bring the Prius upto a realistic 100 mpg (45 mph electric only operation) and plans to get that to 250 mpg (conversions currently cost about $10K). The Prius also has many other environmental friendly aspects about it, such as regenerative braking system -- 300,000 miles on a Prius without a single brake pad change is common. The gas burning engine is tiny and requires much less oil when performing a service. The toxic battery issue is something GM/FORD companies would love you to believe and run with, but the reality of the Prius's harm to the environment vs. convential autos is in order of magnitudes less harmful. Is the Prius the final answer, hell no, it's a transition vehicle but it is a realistic start in the right direction.
The bottom line is less oil consumption -- listening to Auto Industry folks is like a sheep asking the wolf for directions to a safe place.
Most people are pretty clueless on how just entrenched oil and auto companies are in our life and the real power they have over our government. Oil is NOT cheap and is finite -- as we continue to dump huge volumes of it's waste products into our atmosphere -- most people have no clue where the waste product of burning gasoline goes, they just think it somehow magically dissipates into space (seriously!). They seem to think the atmosphere has some infinite volume -- I guess ignorance is bliss.
But what the human race needs to stop doing, is wasting energy and be smart about energy consumption and how to make the best possible use of energy. The gasoline engine is horribly inefficient where 70% of the energy generate is completely wasted. Do we really need to drive a Hummer to get food/supplies from a store that is <1 mile away? Why is the Ford F350 the best selling vehicle in the US? Basically greedy, self centered, unconcerned, the world revolves around me Americans -- (I'm an American so this is not jealousy). And we wonder why the rest of the world hates Americans -- you could almost argue they are doing so to "Save the planet" (perhaps a little extreme). American's and our society needs to stop being so pig headed about what we deem is our "right". Cause ultimately none of us have any rights as the planet doesn't care about our stupidity and ignorance -- it will resolve itself one way or another - you can confirm this with just about any geologists.
Solar power is free, is getting more efficient as our planet is rapidly heating up thanks to our oil consumption/and waste patterns.
Nobody seems even remotely concerned that by 2050 our average earth temp has been projected to have increased 3.8 degrees -- this alone is enough to wipe out at least 1/2 of all life on this planet (including humans). Sorry, no science to save the day, no magic, and no God(s) either. The ONLY way to resolve this issue is if every one of us becomes aware and responsible.
As of our current situation, Solar should be on every building and home in every country, it's free energy. This is real here and now power source with real technology. Regulations to force home builders to install solar power systems should have be instigated 30 years ago. Use the power to charge your vehicle, have considerably smaller vehicles using materials that are light weight.
Right now our cycle of burn more oil & coal which heats up the atomsphere even more which in turns requires more oil & coal to keep us "cool" and more energy to find water or filter it -- and so the cycle increases to the point where the waste energy is exceeding our ability to use that energy to survive.
Come on folks, lets get real about this, stop pretending all is good and Auto makers and oil companies are "responsible". They're NOT!
Sunlight ? Get real.
by TheSalemCat - 5/6/07 6:14 PM In reply to: Be energy smart... by robainsAnyone who thinks Sunlight will solve our Energy Crisis doesn't live in the NorthEast. Up here we go MONTHS without any appreciable Sun. Lack of Sun is why we get COLD in the first place !
Where are you going to get the Hydrogen ?
by TheSalemCat - 5/6/07 6:12 PM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at by prodesmaHydrogen is not mined - or grown in fields in Kansas. It is generated using Electricity.
So how is the Electricity used to manufacture the Hydrogen going to be generated ? Hydroelectric ? Not very ecologogical, and most major rivers are already dammed. Wind ? Not too pratical, and Teddy Kennedy hates them. Burn Coal or Oil ? Then what's the point ?
Battery/H2
by jamesdiego - 5/10/07 12:28 PM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at by prodesmaH2 as a fuel will not happen within 10 years. Batteries are very efficacious.Turbo diesel more available here and NOW. TS for Ford/GM self serving egos and politics. Chemistry and Money rules. Both my specialities.
Remove cry baby management,crybaby politics and unleash practical solutions not government pay outs to rich farmers(EtOH producers).
Where do you get Hydrogen
by ShilohCane - 5/16/07 8:53 PM In reply to: H-y-d-r-o-g-e-n !!! h2 is where it's at by prodesmaThe cheapest way to make Hydrogen is from Natural Gas. For about $350 you can convert any car to run on Natural Gas so what is the point of needing hydrogen? I have seen cars in the 1960 that run both Natural Gas and Gas.
Oh by the way converting Natural Gas to Hydrogen would cost over $8 an equivalent of gasoline today. Converting Hydrogen from water would cost a lot more to produce Hydrogen.
Biodiesel is the best bet for a new fuel. Commpresse air would be the best solution.
C2H5OH is my choice.
by larry123 - 4/25/07 10:29 PM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
190% pure grain alcohol. With a license from the ATF and mixing in a bit of stuff, they will tell you to use, to make it undrinkable, I could make my own LEGAL fuel. Laughing at the energy companies with every mile down the road.
Some Observations on Ethanol (From Corn in Particular)
by baumgrenze - 4/27/07 1:45 PM In reply to: C2H5OH is my choice. by larry123Ethanol from corn (and biodiesel from soy beans as well) will be a credible source of fuel for internal combustion engines when the farmers who grow the corn (and soybeans) convert completely to these fuels and abandon fossil fuels for the plowing, planting, cultivation and harvesting of their crops.
The use of ethanol to fuel the distilleries that produce "ethanol from corn for motor fuel" makes even greater sense. It does not have to be delivered. Private enterprise undoubtedly has concluded that there is a better way to fuel the stills.
Also, check out:
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2007/april18/ethanol-041807.html
There may be places where ethanol as a fuel will DECREASE air quality. They are predominantly 'blue state' so it the problem is 'insignificant.'
190%? You must be a magician.
by averette99 - 5/2/07 7:53 PM In reply to: C2H5OH is my choice. by larry123Do you by any chance mean 190 proof?
190% proof.
by larry123 - 5/2/07 10:25 PM In reply to: 190%? You must be a magician. by averette99Yep. Thats what I ment. It was late and I goofed.
grains
by thomasaddley - 5/6/07 5:26 PM In reply to: C2H5OH is my choice. by larry123The cost of your loaf of bread just went to $10.00 or maybe $15.00 a loaf, so now you can cry all the way to the grocery store. Not to mention the cost of all the other grain products that you can no longer afford
Solar Power
by boabab - 4/26/07 12:21 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Although it's slower it is less impacting on the environment, maybe a hybrid of Solar power combined with Hydrogen could be the best solution. I think the direction of Hydrogen power should be now to minimise, or rather eliminate, Hydrogen leakage altogether. I'd be interested to know the projections of how much oil is left in reserve before we will be forced to change to an alternative. At present I believe the oil companies have too much money and are deeply inbedded in politics and vehicle manufacture for there to be a significant change until it is forced upon them. I'm sure they are at the head of the majority of alternative fuel research and will only impliment as a contingency plan once they have no other option.
Fossil fuel reserve estimates...
by prodesma - 4/26/07 12:56 AM In reply to: Solar Power by boababI've read varying estimates of how much fossil fuel we have 'left' before depleting the world's supplies. I think they are [all] skewed by their depending perspectives. The numbers I've seen range from about 60 years to 300 years.
But, to argue the point (?) who KNOWS how reliant we will be in, say, forty years for fossil fuel to run our factories and transportation. Or our heating systems for that matter. Geegad, we may be using antimatter within a hundred years, who knows?
I've read up a fair bit on solar (photovoltaics) and quite honestly I don't see it having a fair chance. Panel efficiency is not getting high enough fast enough and the sheer surface area is the largest limiting factor (and weight).
True, I guess you could have solar panel "towers" along "roadways," but moving weight like a car takes SERIOUSfu energy. Solar might be great for Audi's sunroof to maintain the climate while the engine is shut-off (brilliant, I wanted to patent a system like this years ago)... But...
Maybe that tricycle design-ish thing that won the future transportation design award at San Jose State or SF State (I think) has some merit... It is Flintstones inspired in a way... Think about this.
The most energy is consumed in getting the initial movement from 0 mph. If that could be handled by leg-power, you'd need a LOT less energy stored on-board. I figure that's why a BMW M5 has near 500 horses- for torque to get it moving. Maintaining a MOVING vehicle at a rate of 65 mph takes only about 8 horsepower. Solar could likely handle THAT part. And even handle it well.
So, perhaps h2 to get a vehicle moving+acceleration and solar+stored solar to maintain rate of speed. I could see that more easily than CNG or bio-diesel tanks being installed at nearly every gas station the world over. And electric might SEEM great, but we're not talking about standard 110V currents. So, major infrastructure would likely be required to install that one.
I mean, many cities already have major 'brown outs' when the temps go up. I don't see the power sub-stations being capable of ADDING the loads of electric vehicles without total overhauls. I mean, maybe FIFTEEN times the current capacities as a starting point.
Plus, would the government simply be REQUIRED to install 'plug stations' every 120 miles in the desert/mountains? Or would it be left to private industry to decide IF it is worth doing? What if not?
For electric, I do like the idea of those 'charging lockers' they have in some cities in Europe. You can charge your cellie or iPod and pay and come back. It might take innovative solutions like that or the Splash Pad to make an EV even possibly possible.
Sorry for more of my ramblings. I'm interested in other peoples' take on this. It is a topic we should not choose to ignore. Cheers.
My Favorite Alternative Fuel
by 2dogday - 4/26/07 12:46 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
After doing research on the top five alternative power sources for cars, I've come to the conclusion that a hydrogen starter with an electric motor would be the ideal combination. Both would have the ability to charge each other--almost like perpetual motion but not quite because there would be parts wearing out and maintainance.
Next to that would be a bio-diesel or gasoline starter with an electric motor. In that case, the motor is recharged either by plug-ins, or in the case of the new Ford concept SUV, each time the brakes are used the electric motor is recharged. Unfortunately, when using the Ford's electric motor you cannot drive faster than 25 MPH. To move faster its gasoline motor kicks in.
Ideally, the electric motor is best when it's powered from energy obtained by wind, the sun or ocean waves. Those, along with hydrogen power would have the least polluting energy. Also, the electric motor has virtually no parts to wear out, so would be less expensive to repair.
Bread and jam with some cream cheese
by daniel wimberley - 4/26/07 4:06 AM In reply to: What's your favorite alternative fuel? by wcunning
Bananas are nice too. What I mean of course is USE YOUR OWN POWER. Walk and cycle wherever possible. This runs on renewable energy - food. And if it is not possible for you to use walking and cycling(barring disability), consider why.
All the fuels mentioned have vast resource supply problems, as some posters have realised. The "need" to have cars and trucks rushing about all day is what is driving us along the road to ruin. Slow down, enjoy the view.
Some posters seem to envisage continued use of the oil still in the ground until we need to move to somehthing else. NOT SO. This is known throughout the world to be absolutely impossible if we are to stop global warming.
And if anyone is thinking of palm oil, take a look at www.regenwald.org and read the English version. Do we really want to destroy what is left of the rainforests to feed our apparently insatiable desire to move? Other biofuels have a similar problem - do we really put our "need" for fuel above the need for people to eat?
Any transport system which thinks that each of us having a ton of metal to move around in is saying that this is how the Chinese and the Indians and Africans must also behave. But there is not enough metal, and not enough renewable energy to process it anyway, and not enough land to grow the biofuel, and we cannot manage the change fast enough - yet more pressure yet more stress.
I just thought a wider view might be useful
Daniel Wimberley
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