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Car Tech: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars?
- 4/12/07 2:04 PM
Yeah but
by Andy77e - 6/2/07 7:14 PM In reply to: Hydrogen or propane? by MarkLatarnikPropane can be pumped easy and is cost effective. Hydrogen will cost millions of dollars we don't have, to make from water. Hydrogen is a ton lighter, because it's way smaller and will escape from your tank before you get a chance to use it. I 30 lb tank will boil off a quart of hydrogen a day. If you go on vacation, your hydrogen car will likely be out of fuel before you get back.
I was a die-hard hydrogen fuel supporter.
by adrisgroup - 4/18/07 8:01 PM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
For a long time I was a strong supporter for the hydrogen powered car. Twenty years ago, for my Diploma project, I designed a hydrogen power engine. I considered to convert my car to run on hydrogen. I was actively looking to get one of the test cars that BMW and GM would offer soon.
Since I heard of Tesla Motors' electric car I started to change my mind. The comments to this article pushed me further away from hydrogen towards the electric car.
The only drawback that I know of for electric car was the limited power supply offered by available batteries. This have been improved dramatically over the last few years.
Hydrogen Cars - not so sure...
by GFW - 4/18/07 10:12 PM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
The problem is where do you get the hydrogen? If you use electricity to produce it, most electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, coal, oil or gas. If there is a nuclear plant devoted to making hydrogen, that might be the answer.
The trouble with biodiesel is that you burn fuel to farm the corn or other feedstock; then more to transport it, to heat the fermentation process, then to transport the fuel to your local gas station. Then you are still burning oil, just a different kind of oil, in the end. Someone has to do the math very carefully on this one!
Production of hydrogen is the key
by cmoose - 4/18/07 10:20 PM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
Great discussion of the pros and cons! But even if solutions can be found for all the problems with the handling and logistics of hydrogen are solved, it is all for naught if the production of hydrogen is not made economically feasible. Several of the threads go blithely along assuming this will somehow be solved.
Electrolysis is not a solution; it saves NO hydrocarbons, as hydrogen is used merely as a storage medium, like a battery - returning less energy than is put in. Unless nuclear sources replace hydrocarbons in producing most of our electricity.
Even if reforming of natural gas becomes economically feasible on a smaller scale, I doubt there is enough to make it a broad solution - we would soon have concerns about running out of gas instead of oil.
Unless there is a breakthrough in production of hydrogen, I think it is just wishful thinking that it will be a significant contribution to our energy and pollution problems.
I think enthusiasm for hydrogen is based on the public perception that water is plentiful, and every drop contains hydrogen. But most fail to realize the cost to extract it, and the fact that currently it fails to conserve hydrocarbons.
If we concentrate on, and are successful in, reducing the cost of pollution-free electricity (apparently nuclear), THEN we can let batteries and fuel cells compete on the basis of economy, performance and safety. Otherwise, the efforts spent on their development may be wasted...
Typical mis-information
by poulsbobill - 4/19/07 7:10 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
You correctly stated that “Critics point out that it takes more electricity to create the hydrogen then it will generate in a fuel cell." However your rebuttal “…it also takes energy to create a gallon of gasoline…” leaves out the fact that it takes LESS energy to produce that gallon than the gallon generates. The reverse of hydrogen. Your article is misleading.
You correctly point out that one expense in the fuel cell is the platinum that covers the nodes – implying it’s a trivial thing that could be replaced. You failed to state that platinum is a critical part of the process and scientists have not come up with an alternative. Until they do, the platinum will keep hydrogen fuel cells off the market for the vast majority of the population.
Your article says that “hydrogen destroys ozone in the same way that chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) do.” And we stopped using it for that reason. Science has subsequently discovered that CFCs do not harm the ozone layer. Did you not know that or are you still pushing the CFC agenda? Excess hydrogen will not affect the ozone layer. Economics, however, will keep hydrogen from becoming the driving force in fuels.
too many problems
by wbowblis - 4/19/07 7:15 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
I suspect there will be some hydrogen vehicles, but almost all will be fleet vehicles. Hydrogen can really only be stored as a high pressure gas so storage will be expensive and carrying a reasonable amount in a vehicle will be dangerous. Refueling would also present problems because of the pressure. Gasoline is dangerous but it isn't at over 6000 PSI like hydrogen would have to be. Fuel cells can be very efficient, so if hydrogen can be produced efficiently and made into a liquid at room temperature, it could be a good substitute, but it does not look like that's a possibility in the near future.
Hydrogen could be distributed by pipeline but laying pipelines is expensive and has a lot of environmental issues.
I think hydrogen has the greatest potential as a means of transporting energy from solar or wind farms to where the energy is needed although making it would have to be a lot more efficient than it is to compete with conventional transmission lines. It would require pipelines but these would be a lot less extensive than what would be needed for vehicle fuel.
Lastly, I don't think it's apt to be a problem for the ozone layer. It's very reactive, so much of it wouldn't get that high and what does will keep going as the Earth can't hold onto gases that light. It may do some damage passing through the ozone but it won't linger.
Isn't using Hydrogen as energy storage just like batteries?
by rikkrohn - 4/19/07 7:24 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
If we are not just using Hydrogen directly from natural sources - but are instead using energy (steam, etc) to extract the energy from water (or whatever) - don't we get back far less energy in powering the car than we used to extract it? (remember "conservation of energy from chemistry class?)
That is - you don't get something for nothing!
So - I repeat - isn't that just like "storing the energy" in "hydrogen" just like we "store the electricity in a battery"? My belief is that we should focus more on finding better battery technologies! For example, how about having "battery stations" who have batteries packs - fully charged waiting for you. When you need a "refill" - you pull into the "battery station" - and in minutes, they dismount your discharged batteries, mount the fully charged ones - and away you go! (analogous to the way we all buy propane for our grills - we turn in our empty propane tanks at the 7-11)
How about if my battery is 1/2 charged when I pull into the "battery station"? I suggest that the station give you an instant credit for the "watts" you are turning in.
This scheme doesn't require an entirely new transmission/storagescheme like Hydrogen does. It doesn't cause ozone depletion. It doesn't blow up in an accident like Hydrogen. It doesn't require heavy tanks to be put into the auto.
Really not needed and impractical given todays infrastructur
by rlafford - 4/19/07 8:36 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
II really see no need for hydrogen fuel cell cars and many problems. Producing, transporting, storing and dispensing hydrogen has many problems not to mention the low energy density.
I'm on my second Toyota Prius after having put 134,000 miles on the first one. I suspect a hybrid with a larger battery capacity that could be charged overnight would satisfy most personal transportation requirements.
Something feasible in the next 10 – 15 years might be a very efficient turbo-diesel based hybrid that could use biodiesel. New technology utilizing algae to produce fuel oil is extremely promising and has a much less ecologically negative footprint than the current ethanol producing processes have. Biodiesel has few of the problems associated with petroleum-based fuels and is relatively energy dense even when compared to gasoline.
May as well promote "Flubber power" :P
by punterjoe - 4/19/07 2:41 PM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
Hydrogen just seems impractical, and a convenient way to avoid doing anything significant while serious money is siphoned into R&D. I'm not advocating abandoning hydrogen research, just reallocating our resources to find a near term solution and let hydrogen development proceed at it's own pace, rather than pouring vast resources into making the marketing dogma of hydrogen power into a tangible - however impractical - product.
We're a resourceful species. Let's choose to be pragmatic before circumstances force us to.
We Need Independence Now, not 20 Years in the Future
by reformerz - 4/20/07 2:28 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
Hydrogen fuel may be a good concept for the future, but we need to be
independent of Middle Eastern fuel supplies as quickly as practicable. As you point out, most hydrogen is derived from Natural Gas reforming. 25% of our Natural Gas comes from the Middle East, so we have a Catch-22, which negates one of your arguments, that hydrogen fuel, independent from M.E. sources, will lessen political tension. In the future, hydrogen production from Solar or Hydro may be viable, but not NOW.
A better solution is at hand immediately. Plug-in Hybrids, either Serial or Parallel, are the answer for NOW. Lithium Ion batteries have already been improved to the point that a car equipped with them can travel 40m before the Internal Combustion Engine (I.C.E.) even needs to kick in. This means that most commuters may never need the I.C.E. except to recharge the batteries on the fly.
Check the progress that has been made by reading the latest articles at http://www.calcars.org, or at http://www.greencarcongress.com/
We may not even need batteries. Several manufacturers are producing
Ultracapacitors for use in domestic and Military vehicles.
Enter the future NOW, not 15-20 years down the road.
Alternative Fuel--Hydrogen the Future)
by fk1268 - 4/21/07 8:05 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
You may have missed something in your well written article about the quest for the best alternative fuel. A company, ECOTALITY, has been developing HYDRATUS. Hydratus produces Hydrogen on board removing the need for storage tanks. It uses sea water and magnesium to produce the hydrogen. I would like to recommend that you look at www. ecotality.com for more on this amazing project.
Hydratus is just an old idea reworked
by albizzia - 4/23/07 12:05 AM In reply to: Alternative Fuel--Hydrogen the Future) by fk1268The "Hydratus" mentioned works by reacting magnesium with steam (not seawater) to create hydrogen and magnesium hydroxide. Producing hydrogen by reacting a metal with water, steam, or acid has been known for centuries.
The Hydratus method is very inefficient and expensive, as it takes nearly 700 pounds of magnesium to equal a single tank of gasoline. Magnesium is produced by electrolysis, and the amount of electricity needed to make 700 pounds of magnesium would drive a large fleet of battery electric cars much farther than a 700 lb magnesium load in a "hydratus" vehicle.
It may open other routes to CO2 reduction
by Will Jurgens - 4/21/07 11:32 PM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
Yes I agree that there are efficiency issues but by centralising the production of H2 you open up the possibility of sequestration of the carbon generated by the processes. At least you don't have a gazillion generators of other gasses as well as CO2 making it impossible to capture the emissions. So we need to think of the full production cunsumption and emission cycles other wise all we will see are the individual steps and lose potential solutions. There will never be a simple single silver bullet to solve the issue. Same thing vis a vie ethanol from corn. I fyou also use the cellulose and capture emissions it will make a difference. Our role as the public is to ensure that lobbyists and politicians implement the full solutions in their complexity.
Hydrogen has great promise...
by icanaris - 4/22/07 9:21 AM In reply to: What do you think of hydrogen fuel cell cars? by wcunning
When you look at evolving technology there are lots of reasons to believe the a Hydrogen Economy and Infrastructure is entirely possible in the future.
1) Safe and Compact Storage Development in Metal Hydrides or porous polymers
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/297749/Power+pack.htm
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/295378/H-trap.htm
2)Easily controlled flow and supply of Hydrogen
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/297324/Storage+solution.htm
3)Development of cheaper and greener Hydrogen Generation by the main 'players'
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/295387/Green+alliance.htm
4) Scalable possiblities for portable Hydrogen Generation
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/299036/On+demand.htm
With these developments and ideas available and gaining momentum Hydrogen Infrastructure will no doubt player a valuable part in our everyday 'power' hungry lifes. Personally I believe the long term use of hydrogen seems safer than ultimately creating a large pile of relatively hard to dispose of batteries, containing various heavy metals. On Balance though it will take some more time and money plus R&D before cheaper and more 'mass produce-able' materials are used in Hybrid systems.
For now though we are already seeing that Hybrids of technologies (rechargeable batteries, fuel cells and 'direct' fuels) are being applied so every one can use an ideal solution and take part economically and socially for greener, cleaner living.
Hydrogen worst of fuels.
by Richard Wieck - 4/25/07 2:45 AM In reply to: Hydrogen has great promise... by icanarisDear Neil_90,
I was a physicist with NASA during the Apollo moon program, so I know first hand how wasteful hydrogen is (not even considering boil off). All of the most economical sources produce only about 70% (in hydrogen energy) from the original 100% source. Then the energy needed to either compress or liquefy hydrogen wastes another 15% to 30%. We wind up with only 40% to 55% of the original energy that we started with! This extreme waste of energy means that hydrogen actually worsens global warming instead of reducing it! It breaks down to:
Gasoline at $3.25/gal = $13 for same amount of hydrogen energy
Any takers? In January 2005 Bill Reinert, U.S. manager of Toyota’s advanced technologies group was asked when fuel cell cars would replace gasoline-powered cars, and he replied “If I told you “never” would you be upset?”
For the real story read “THE HYPE ABOUT HYDROGEN” by Joseph J. Romm who was one of the directors in the Department of Alternative Fuels in the Department of Energy during the Clinton administration.
Richard Wieck
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