Community Newsletter: Q&A: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use?
- 3/23/07 12:14 PM
Terrible analogy, buddy!
by Kid A - 4/8/07 10:54 AM In reply to: Stealing? by drdiabolocoIf you go to a shop and copy a disc while the owner is away, you are essentially stealing. If you don't think that is the case, then why not ask said owner for permission to copy the disc? Then there's the issue of copying copyrighted material...
Hey, I disagree with the approach that record companies and the like have taken with digital media. (Alas, the quality of most music files downloaded from P2P networks is nothing like CD-quality and arguably no better than something recorded from a radio station!), but you have to call a rose a rose. Self-deception doesn't change the facts.
On a separate matter - regarding your "Zone Alarm blocking Limewire hosts" post, I will bypass the issue of legality since I have no idea of what exactly you are downloading (and don't care to know), but it sounds as if the problem has nothing to do with the firewall. My guess is that if you disable ZA, you will encounter the same issue, regardless of whether or not another firewall is running. It might be a good idea to consult Limewire's User Guide, too.
reply
by Dreamer82au - 3/18/07 5:23 AM In reply to: LimeWire by A Daisy A DayThe question I have (may have been answered I'm still reading through this thread but thought I'd post before its too late) is what if the file is only reasonably available on P2P software. Its still stealing, its still wrong but what if you've tried all the legitimate options and still can't find a copy so you turn your attention to these programs and oh look there it is a copy. 2 hours of downloading and you have it, its yours to enjoy. You've still broken the law but your only options were to either do so or not get what you want. I ask this because there are at least 3 things I want but I can't get them legitimately (I haven't tried getting them illegitimately either nor do I intend to although I may never get them).
One is a DVD that I've had on order with the local store since late last year but which they haven't been able to find a copy of. The second is a card game also on order since last year but now out of print so its not available in stores and it wasn't popular enough to have second hand copies floating around even if stores selling that kind of thing were in my neighborhood. The third is a book (also out of print) that I've been trying to buy since 1999 with no luck as it was out of print and again not popular enough to have second hand copies available. So here I am 8 years later in one case having not bought what I want because it simply isn't available to me through legal channels.
In cut and dried terms if I found any of these (or the other things I want) for free on p2p I should go to jail for breaking the law but should I as a consumer never get them at all because they aren't available to me in stores (for financial on their side not legal reasons)?
Now if your talking something like the ice age movie or vista I agree that's a different matter (they're ridiculously expensive for what you get) but they are available in a wide variety of stores worldwide making it fairly easy to find a copy.
The golden rule regarding 'out of print' recordings
by David Eaton Productions - 3/18/07 3:09 PM In reply to: reply by Dreamer82auYou present a dilemma that is very popular on this forum. And before I start to give my take, please understand that I mean no offence and this is a discussion, not an attack.
The first flaw in your premise is the feeling of "Entitlement". Some feel that, if something is out there, they are ENTITLED to have it. People are not willing to settle with "I can do without," if the only option is a very small violation of the law. The temptation is particularly strong given the EASE with which the law can be broken. All you need is a home computer and a P2P program, Besides, are you really a criminal if you are sipping coffee in bunny slippers and never leave your home office?
Clearly you have a good conscience when you say, that if you were to break the law to get the song "...you have it, its yours to enjoy. You've still broken the law but your only options were to either do so or not get what you want. "
To determine an action’s ethics, it is helpful to “flip” the situation - the basic premise of the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
So, imagine that a your teenage daughter’s boyfriend wants sex, and although she is ‘in love’ with him and will make out with him, she is not willing take the final step. If, in his eyes, she lets him get so close. To press the issue would cross the legal line of Date Rape, but it’s so close! Would you want him to subscribe to “You've still broken the law but your only options were to either do so or not get what you want”? Isn't it her choice? I know this is a bit dramatic, but it illustrates the principal (and I hope your daughter's boyfriend had good character.)
You set the premise that, "you've tried all the legitimate options and still can't find a copy" Let me be clear that I am not trying to get on your case but here is a checklist of sources that many people do not think of. Have you done all of the following?
1. Ebay. There are tons of valuable items that have lost their value to the owners.
2. Ebay's "Want It Now" section allows you to request what you are looking for and people who hadn't even thougth of selling something may be happy to see it go to an apreciative owner
3. Use a record locater service - http://www.recordfinder-sf.com/ is one I found in 2 seconds with a google search, but these businesses have been around for years. As a matter of fact, record locating is how Richard Branson started in the record business - leaving his business card in telephone booths and selling from the back of his car.
4. Contacting the original record company requesting a copy? Many have back stock that they may be willing to move.
5. Contact the song publisher to see if it is available in re-release? Rhino Records has made a killing re-releasing stuff for which there is still a demand, just not the numbers the Major Labels are looking for. They make great profit, as they have very low set up expense - the product just needs a new package.
There are also ‘hidden’ benefits to doing the above. Not only is your search legal, it makes waves in the record business community that say "there is still a demand for x product." That way labels may be inspired to start offering the back catalog, even if just as a legal download. Heck, it sounds like a good business, I might try it!
If you just copy it for free, there is no buzz created that will help get the material legally distributed.
Thanks for hearing me out.
Thanks for the suggestion.
by Dreamer82au - 3/18/07 6:56 PM In reply to: The golden rule regarding 'out of print' recordings by David Eaton ProductionsI have tried searching on ebay but no one was selling a copy (at last at the times I wandered around) and I'm not much of a music buff (I'm looking for DVD's, games, books etc). I also did try contacting the companies of some of the things I'm interested in with no luck a few years back. However I didn't know you could request things though ebay. Its obvious I'll need to go back over things again this year and see if my options have changed. Still I'm now curious about someone elses question if I do find a second hand copy out there on something like ebay and buy it the author/publishing company still get none of my money. Its juts a private deal between me and whoever would be selling it so is there an ethical difference between me buying it from someone else or downloading it from their standpoint since they get nothing out of me either way?
I am however rather entertained by the idea of tracking down the author and sending her an email asking if I sent her a check would she send me a copy of her book.
Regarding 'second hand copies'
by David Eaton Productions - 3/19/07 2:58 PM In reply to: Thanks for the suggestion. by Dreamer82auFirst off, you are welcome for the suggestion and I hope you can find the items you want!
As for your question regarding second hand purchases...
In the case of a book or music, there is no legal or ethical conflict in a second hand transaction. The reason is, a new 'copy' is not being created. The problem with a download is that a new 'copy' of the product exists, so it is subject to copyright laws, whose primary purpose is to grant to the 'author' of a work, the 'right' to decide how are who makes copies.
If you are selling a painting, I have heard that a precentage of the purchase price IS paid to the publisher and/or Artist. The reason for this is, when an artist creates a work, its true value can only be determined over time. My assumption is that, with the original sale, a work of art may have 'conditions' that provide for such. Those conditions may exclude you from manufacturing post cards, posters, greeting cards and such. But they may also include a royalty to the artist and his publisher if you ever sell the painting. I never researched the details, but I trust the artist who told me this years ago.
Safe of use
by jackpriest - 3/18/07 5:26 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I have been using Limewire for over four years now. I payed a one time fee of $20.00 about two years ago to upgrade to a better and faster speed. I tell you that if you want to download music and you have all your security in place and is runnung well you will not have any problems with it. Once you use it your wonder why you waited so long. I have over 7000 songs in my library and growing. I have only had about 4 or5 songs that I needed to delete. Limewire its self have filters that will block some material that is no good. I have seached the internet and have not found any better.I hope this has made it a little easyer to decide. Best of luck.
"Used" music
by lostintime - 3/18/07 5:40 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I've read some of the postings on this subject. Not sure I agree nor disagree with most. Question is: if you buy used cd's at a yard sale or any of the on-line resellers at a bargain, rip the tracks you want and compile them into a cd that you like and play in your vehicle or wherever, what is this considered to be? (I know the sentence runs on, so ask the pc police to back off). Seems as if the disc was originally sold in a legitimate fashion and presumably the industry got it's fair cut, now the only money that has changed hands is between the seller and myself.
Peer to Peer logic.
by janner471 - 3/18/07 7:57 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Hello, The logic of peer to peer. Here is a sample. My friend buys a album of the ABBA's from a retailer shop. He knows I like this group, and brought it over to my house. I installed all the songs in the album on the my computer. Is this illegal. No monies past between me and my friend.
Lately in the media, there have been alot about artish and recording companies losing monies because of the so called illegal copying of their music. Losing monies are they, the poor things. Oh, we must feel sorry for these millionaires. Their, complaining only shows how greedy they are. I was wondering if they in their chosen career, have taken a degree of sorts. I doubt it. They spent to much time priming themselves. I got films on cd's from retailers. I lend these to my neighbour, and they do the same. Thank you dennis
Been doing same since 1970s only technology has changed....
by AlisaK - 3/18/07 10:53 AM In reply to: Peer to Peer logic. by janner471Hello,
How many of you out there remember copying (ripping) a vinyl to a cassette? How many of you remember making compilation cassettes for yourself or a friend? I don't know what all the sudden fuss from the richy riches of the world is about it is the same thing all over again just easier to do and share....I think they should leave the average person alone and work on knocking off charging such rip off prices for their software....I mean $00-$600 for Microsoft Office? Gimme a break -- Bill Gates is now paying to support small third world countries all himself....he should plow his money into this country the one that made him rich and let the corrupt politicians of those countries have to answer for their own greed.....and the people of those countries should stop having sex/creating babies that have a life expectancy of like 2-4 years because of poverty........Worry and help your own people first.
cant possibly call it illegal
by CJKrause - 3/18/07 9:43 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
i ve been using limewire for years...it rocks big time.
u cant possibly call it illegal because theres no law which condemns it..but thinkin abt it ur self u cant disagree with d fact tat companies do lose a lot of money bec of it..my suggesion..if u not not hard up on d pocket n have cash-dont download stuff from limewire or via torrents..but u have to scan every executable file..otherwise there cud be trouble
scan exec files
by homer555552 - 3/19/07 10:21 AM In reply to: cant possibly call it illegal by CJKrausehi im a novice at this but how do you scan them? before you down load them or after because i heard on this thread that all ,exec files have viruses especaily the very small files for down loadinf films?
LimeWire and P2P
by AlisaK - 3/18/07 10:40 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
Hello,
1) I totally believe in LimeWire and P2P for several reasons. One that can't be argued away is that when it comes to music there are a whole lot of old music that the music companies aren't and haven't re-released on CD to be purchased in the store and lets face it they never will because it was enjoyable for the time but not note-worthy (sorry about the pun there..unintentional but applicable). There are however a whole bunch of people that did and still do enjoy it and have good memories associated with it that want it.....For example, I enjoyed Shaun Cassidy and aside from the one single inadequate greatest hits album his library is gone and only available on vinyl which would require me to purchase a decent turntable and sound card and software to get my old vinyl (I have his whole library) onto my computer and subsequently CD. Not something I have the money to invest in doing...So I have to grab where I can.
2) I am a tech and I like to keep up on the latest versions and don't have the money to spend on many software titles. Lets face it some of these titles can cost any where from $200 to $1000. What lower level tech has the money for that?
3) and this is goofy/hokey I admit it....I like the challenge of being able to get what I want through doing an end run around the high priced/over priced system....Adobe won't go bankrupt over me or any 10 of me....neither will Microsoft for that matter.....When I am able to help out my family/friends by saving them the same money I saved doing it my way it boosts my ego a bit because I feel (they make me feel) superior because I know the shortcuts/end runs on how to get things w/out spending........If these companies don't want us doing this then let them stop charging $400-$600 for Microsoft Office or Photoshop etc...Till then I have ZERO pity for them and worry about my own survival since they don't care about me.......
answer is so simple
by carreraGT1122 - 3/18/07 11:50 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
limewire itself is NOT illegal, if you download copyrighted songs/movies ect.. it is NOT illegal, the only illegal part is that if you share your files with other people, my friend is being sued for $5000 not because she was downloading the files but because she was sharing those files with the public, many people that download songs, they leave them in the same folder they downloaded them into, that folder is usually shared with the public, all I do is just when ever I download a file into that folder, i just move it to somewhere else, so my folder is always empty
Another Aspect
by Sugarat - 3/18/07 11:59 AM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
If you buy a CD, is the license you are acquiring for the music itself, or for the physical artifact of the CD? If it's for the CD, then what about the music? If it's the music, then when does that license expire?
What I'm getting at is I have bought a couple of thousand vinyl albums growing up. When 8 tracks came out, I bought a good portion of my collection on 8 track. Then cassettes came out, and I did the same. If I have bought the license for an album's worth of music three times already, and the license is for the music, don't I have a right to listen to that MUSIC any time I want? Not the album, not the 8 track or the cassette, but the music. Shouldn't I be able to download a copy of music that I have purchased the license for several times over?
I'm NOT trying to be sarcastic or persuasive. I'm genuinely wondering - where does the music license end or when does it expire? And again, if the license is for the album itself, then what of the music?
Don't worry about the Law.
by avtronic - 3/18/07 1:13 PM In reply to: Is peer-to-peer software such as LimeWire legal and safe to use? by Lee Koo (ADMIN)
I mean no disrespect so please don't be insulted but your questions makes it seem like you are just worried about getting caught doing something illegal. There's no mention on whether this is right or wrong. Unfortunately, many people may have no issue getting music for free. It's not the "poor" record company I'm worried about or even the shinning new artist, it's you. The artist along with big companies will survive, for now. This is becoming a core problem in our society that will only get bigger if we don't at least take the first step; admitting that we have a problem, that it is wrong even if it's not illegal. The people that run sites like Limewire have found their loop holes, for now, and are not doing anything illegal but it is wrong. People trading the music on those sites are doing something illegal and it's so obvious that it's so wrong as well. The least of your concerns should be whether or not your computer will get a virus.
A few years ago my friend was showing me all the music he download from napster back in the hay day. I was thinking "man, he's got no problems with stealing all this music?". Then, right after that thought, his 8 year old daughter, who had been watching us, came over with more interest as she saw how big the list was. She asked him "Did you buy all those songs?". I will never forget the look of realization on his face as he could not dare to answer her question and then looked at me as if to save him. His reaction renewed my respect for him. He actually did not think he was doing anything wrong and was just got caught up in the excitement of all this great music. After she was ushered away, unanswered, we had a talk . I would have never told him he was wrong because it's just to personal to point out such a deep core malfunction. Luckily he wasn't that rotten and actually felt bad about what he had done. Unfortunately this is not the case with others and it all starts when they are young. They could have been a youngster like this girl. Their father might have not been worried about hiding his wrong doings and said "no, I got them free off napster"
The people out there that adamantly defend the "right to download what I want" are pretty much bent and twisted in their ways. Nothing said here or even a young kid asking them how they got that will make them regret what they have done. I'm not saying "lost cause" but it will take something greater than this to straighten them out. For the rest of us, if you ever find your self asking "is that legal?" don't fool your self thinking it's right just because some one answers "there's no law against it".
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